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Naked Mole Rats and Life Extension Research

 
 
grant
16:42 / 19.11.02
Nature says:

The naked mole-rat may help scientists to understand longevity. Although it is just the size of a gerbil, it lives over six times as long: it can survive 26 years or more.

Mole-rats (Heterocephalus glaber) have few predators and lots of offspring, even in old age. They are prime candidates for studying how natural selection acts on ageing, says animal behaviourist Paul Sherman of Cornell University in Ithaca, New York.

A creature's maximum lifespan is dictated by how well its cells and organs cope with prolonged use. "While average lifespan in humans has crept up, maximum lifespan has not changed for hundreds of years," Sherman says. "We want to know why that is."


Details at the link.

As research, this sounds like a light bulb that has taken a really long time to go off.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:55 / 19.11.02
First: I am looking forward to being crowned "The Queen of the Mole-Rats".

Second: I don't understand why living long and having lots of children is necessarily useful for survival of the species if they have little predation... doesn't overpopulation become a problem?
 
 
Lurid Archive
01:14 / 20.11.02
As research, this sounds like a light bulb that has taken a really long time to go off. - grant

Perhaps. There are also the ethical considerations with this research. Should it even be conducted? I honestly don't know, though I am aware of some work relating reduced calorie intake with increased life span.

Also, it isn't clear exactly how helpful looking at long living rats is going to be. It will probably shed some light on the area, but is it likely to be applicable to humans? A complicated mesh of genetic and environmental factors leading to longevity may be of only theoretical interest.
 
 
Turk
03:00 / 20.11.02
Nosferatu? I always thought they looked more like David Mellor.

What possible opposition could there be to this research?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:26 / 20.11.02
Well, presumably that the impact of lengthening human maximum life expectancy by....say.....thirty years will raise an awful lot of questions about population growth, resource consumption and other related elements.

If, on the other hand, humans could be made immortal, maybe they would stop dumping huge amounts of oil in the sea...
 
 
Turk
00:15 / 21.11.02
So your problem is with application, not research?
That should not be a reason to avoid discovery and learning. As for application, well frankly if this research helps in finding a cure for conditions like childhood progeria it's absolutely worthwhile.
 
 
Lurid Archive
01:19 / 21.11.02
I tend to think that the separation of application and pure research is the hallmark of poor ethics. I'm not saying that this research shouldn't be done, just that if it were me I'd think twice about it. Apart from the resource problems, one could also envisage a situation where life spans could be lengthened, but only for the very wealthy. How do you fancy an immortal Bill Gates?

As for progeria...all research is potantially useful. But it isn't clear that successfully increasing life expectancy will cure that disease. Not that I know anything, just that I know I don't know anything.
 
 
Turk
01:38 / 21.11.02
Life spans are already lengthened for the wealthy, that cat is out of the bag. That is an issue about affordable healthcare, not medical knowledge.
The cure for cancer won't be available to everybody, that's no reason hold back the search for it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:01 / 21.11.02
Life spans are already lengthened for the wealthy, that cat is out of the bag. That is an issue about affordable healthcare, not medical knowledge.

Yes, but it is a matter of degree. If the research into longevity is successful then, given the economic structure of funding nations, it would be naive to defer the issue to one of healthcare. It is true that all medical research suffers from these problems, but longevity is particularly thorny because of the resource issues and the potential social impact.
 
 
Turk
00:16 / 22.11.02
Questions we've been needing to ask regardless of this research and its possible outcomes.
As things already stand my generation should live to be a hundred. We'll want to retire at fifty-five, but to support the ecomony we will apparently have to work until we're seventy and then what? Live another thirty years shivering on cold winter nights because we can't afford to heat our homes.
Keeping that in mind, would it be ethical to limit today's medical practices (i.e. pretend previous research hadn't happened) so that it won't happen and so that we will die at a economically-sound seventy-five?
 
 
Thjatsi
19:23 / 30.11.02
I don't understand why living long and having lots of children is necessarily useful for survival of the species if they have little predation...doesn't overpopulation become a problem?

I don't have a strong Ecology background, but I think that the carrying capacity for the mole rat remains more or less the same whether or not there are predators around. This will increase competition between individual mole rats, but will not be negative for the species as a whole.

There are also the ethical considerations with this research. Should it even be conducted?

Personally, I think that this and other research devoted to ending senescence is necessary. Therefore, I'm very interested in an ethical discussion of the potential impact of slowing or stopping the aging process. This thread has begun to approach this question from an environmental perspective, so I'll focus on that first.

In my opinion, the environmental impact of life-extension research does not necessarily have to be negative. We are beginning to adapt to our current increase in lifespan, and it is conceivable that we will continue to adapt to further increases. In the developed world, our population growth is leveling off. For example, the number of deaths in Europe and Japan is beginning to exceed the number of births. The population of the United States continues to grow, but is also starting to level off. The undeveloped world is primarily responsible for the growth in world population, and it is my hope that this will also begin to decrease as their economic status approaches that of the developed world.

In the event that this does not occur, I think we would find it rather easy to regulate population growth in developed countries. We could give people a simple choice. If you decide to stop aging, you have to have your reproductive ability medically removed. However, this leads to all sorts of problems like people freezing their sperm beforehand, or certain religious groups declaring the ultimatum to be cultural genocide. A lot of the difficulties associated with legal control are resolvable, but some aren't, and it is my hope that humans will continue to adapt to increases in life-expectancy.

As you've no doubt noticed, my response is mostly speculation. Unfortunately, it is impossible to predict the long term impact of life-extension on the environment. There are entirely too many variables for me to dispel all potential fears. However, I would point out that the arguments of those actively seeking to stop this research are also primarily speculation.

I welcome any further discussion on this issue from the environmental or any other perspectives.
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:50 / 01.12.02
As things already stand my generation should live to be a hundred.
- D


I did a lot of hunting around the web looking at research and census data - not the best source, admittedly. But its not clear to me that what you say is true. Then again, I couldn't say with any certainty that it isn't true though it may depend on exactly what you mean.

In my opinion, the environmental impact of life-extension research does not necessarily have to be negative. We are beginning to adapt to our current increase in lifespan, and it is conceivable that we will continue to adapt to further increases. - Thjatsi

While it is true that developed countries have changed behaviour in response to an improved survival rate for children, this was preceded by a population explosion. Essentially the same type of population explosion as is happening in developing countries. But there is no reason to suppose that there won't be a lag between medical advance and change in lifestyle if longevity research is successful. I think it quite likely that it would produce another increase in population whose nature would be determined by the specifics of longevity.

Moreover, an increase in life expectancy will produce a change in population age profile - that is tautological - which does not tally with welfare and labour models. Lots of people living beyond retirement will cause economic strain and although the economics can be changed there is bound to be a short term problem unless the introduction of longevity is very gradual. The obvious limiting factor is economic, which again raises ethical issues.

Its not that I think the research shouldn't go ahead necessarily, but I do think it is worth careful consideration.
 
 
Turk
02:37 / 01.12.02
Yeah the age my generation will live to was a stab in the dark, I wouldn't be afraid to speculate that it's even longer than that.

We could give people a simple choice. If you decide to stop aging, you have to have your reproductive ability medically removed.

I'm not exactly sure many people want to live in a future in which you are forced to make the choice between sterilisation or death. I think you have to admit, it really really does echo of the Nazis.


Lots of people living beyond retirement will cause economic strain and although the economics can be changed there is bound to be a short term problem unless the introduction of longevity is very gradual.

You know, I suppose limiting the aging process could potentially extend your working age far beyond what we deem it to be now. We may have more virile workers, not less, or perhaps longer working lives supporting longer retirements.
Unless we're talking about immortality, it really is just one more progression along a road we've been on for hundreds of years. The one problem I'm sure about, living so long, you could get really bored.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:29 / 01.12.02
Yeah the age my generation will live to was a stab in the dark, I wouldn't be afraid to speculate that it's even longer than that. - D

But on what basis? Is it just optimism? Or do you have a good reason to suppose that there isn't a natural limit to human life expectancy?

You know, I suppose limiting the aging process could potentially extend your working age far beyond what we deem it to be now. We may have more virile workers, not less, or perhaps longer working lives supporting longer retirements.

I think you are missing the point that there will be short term economic problems anyhow. This issue is a problem now. I can only imagine how much worse it will be if there is a sudden increase in life expectancy.
 
 
Turk
01:55 / 02.12.02
But on what basis?

On the basis that average life expectancy continues to generally rise. On the basis that all kinds of research are throwing up new potential new cures and vaccines for all kinds of diseases and conditions. Call that "just optimism" if you wish.

I can only imagine how much worse it will be if there is a sudden increase in life expectancy.

I can't imagine there are any easy answers. Possible if treatments from this research was phased in it would be a slow process with few people affording it.
Not that there isn't room for pessimism. Nightmarishly it might even mean we see a return to the elderly being looked after by their families. Frightening isn't it?
 
 
tSuibhne
14:36 / 02.12.02
D throws out:
On the basis that average life expectancy continues to generally rise. On the basis that all kinds of research are throwing up new potential new cures and vaccines for all kinds of diseases and conditions. Call that "just optimism" if you wish.

To which I reply with a quote from grant's initial post:
A creature's maximum lifespan is dictated by how well its cells and organs cope with prolonged use. "While average lifespan in humans has crept up, maximum lifespan has not changed for hundreds of years," Sherman says.

While it may or may not be more common for people to die from diseases (I don't know) somewhere around the 80-90 range the average person's organs and immune system will simply stop functioning. It's generally refered to as the body "shutting down." My grandmother is going through that right now. In all honesty, a cold could kill her if she lives a few more years. Or a major organ could just stop working at any instant.

Currently there is a ceiling that most people will hit, where average life span will top out, and not go any further. In my uneducated opinion, I think we're reaching that now, and I, personally, don't beleave it'll reach 100, though that's just a guess. At that age level, disease is not as important as simple cell structure.
 
 
grant
15:02 / 02.12.02
Yeah, a friend of mine (a science writer for a university) was just talking about this last night - one of the things current research is concentrating on is "rectangularizing the curve" of health decline in aging.

He was talking about consistent weight training keeping people fairly fit and healthy into their 90s, so that instead of a slow decline of mounting health problems, they are basically fine - until they hit that one, final illness, when everything falls apart at once. The gentle slope becomes a steep rectangle.

What the mole rat research *could* do is move the end point of that rectangular further out, to 100 or 120 years or more - since they live so much longer than similar organisms, like rats or gerbils. They also have relatively good health throughout their lives (at least as measured in the ability to keep producing offspring, which a decrepit, sickly mole rat wouldn't be able to do).
 
 
Turk
00:57 / 03.12.02
D throws out? Charming.

"While average lifespan in humans has crept up, maximum lifespan has not changed for hundreds of years," Sherman says.

This comment from Sherman was restrospective. If one might be permitted to use a little foresight and consider the potentials of new treatments, particularly regenerative treatments such as stem cell therapy and gene therapy - both of which may have preventative affects on aging, add to that the possible outcomes of research into free radicals and there is plenty of reason to be optimistic that both figures may rise regardless of the results of this study on mole rats. Ergo the confidence.
 
  
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