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Spending a week evil for research purposes: duelling magickos?

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:42 / 18.11.02

Just chucking this out there:

We're all pretty well disposed towards each other for the most part, right? And we're all aware that if we go around being all "la lalala la la! I'm magickal!" there's a chance that something unpleasant is going to get a sniff of us and leak out of the bedroom wall to wreak gooey annoyance upon our tiny lives, right?

So here's my idea. Volunteers take turns to be EEEEVIIILLLL for some specified length of time (say, two weeks or so), and interested parties attempt to use the time to count coup with them. Obviously, there's no real magickal attack going on; it's all about safe, cordial sparring in order to flex those magickal muscles.

I can see a lot of problems with this, but in essence it seems like a potentially useful exercise.

Input?

Nietzsch E. Coyote

23:44 / 18.11.02

I think is is a good utterly mental idea. Have you read Counting Coup by Phil Hine. I might want to play but NO ATTACKS ON ME YET, i'm not ready right now.

Maybe we should make it full duels. Two people at a time for say a week and then on the next weekend they post what they did and what results they noticed. That way one person doesn't get swamped to the point that it gets actually dangerous and they can both attack and both defend.

00:24 / 19.11.02

It sounds like a lot of fun! However, I don't know if I'm up to sparring right now either...

(Somebody's going to have to throw down the glove and somebody's going to have to accept. Get back to me after the holidays and I'll give it a go...)

07:18 / 19.11.02

Could you expand on what you mean Mordant? Do you mean picking a partner and seeing if you can influence them or contact them magickally or something like that? How do you "count coup"?

07:45 / 19.11.02

Well I'm up for this in fact for the past few weeks I've been attacking everyone on the board anyway - MwwwHAHAHA *cough*

Yeah maybe not an attack as such how about 2 people pick a word and try and get the other person to see that word or thing as many places as possible, of course you don't tell the other person. Safe and fun?

For example for the past few weeks I've been seeing Penguins all over the place.

So I could pick the word monkey and try and get monkeys to pop in things that Mordant reads, on TV and maybe even a wild monkey running down the road

Would that work?

Or we could just go for the full Jedi battle

13:49 / 19.11.02

... your force is weak, old man...

I'm in.

I was pondering this subject a while back, trying to figure out a good target for competition. Not being one for hexes, banes and curses, I looked to other possibilities - like affecting the outcomes of sporting events, or weather...

I like Bear's idea, and I wouldn't object to Guinea-pigging for other Lithers. One at a time please, Old-fashioned rules... no eyes, no groin, no fatalities.

13:55 / 19.11.02

Link to Hine's Counting Coup.

14:10 / 19.11.02

I'd be in. Sounds like fun and would push a few boundaries for me - PM's to sort out opponents and moderators?

14:18 / 19.11.02

Hmm. Counting Coup and Psychic Mail Art.

I'm definitely in! Matchups need to be arranged via PM to avoid unconscious "contamination" by the group; do we want to publicly report results as they happen in a specific Coup/synchronicities thread?

14:22 / 19.11.02

Reading that link....
It seems like to do it well, you'd have to be keeping a magical diary online. Well, that is, if you wanted to make it fun for the rest of us to watch.
The effect would also have to be secret from the target, but known to the moderator. Hmm.
Yeah, PM the moderator, then a "weirdness" thread acting as a sort of group magical diary - that'd work.

14:31 / 19.11.02

I can see a lot of problems with this... – Mordant C@rnival

Please explain further.

14:56 / 19.11.02

Iszabelle/Grant: I'd rather keep things secret between myself and a moderator, till afterward. Just feel it'd work better for me.

BC: Why so? Not if you avoid projecting malevolent intent - and I trust most people on here not to do that.

16:34 / 19.11.02

Perhaps I was a bit hasty in posting the above – there is a moderation request underway to delete the last sentence. Since I'm not taking part, my opinion is irrelevant. Sorry.

But perhaps it would be helpful if Mordant could discuss what s/he thinks the problems would be in doing this sort of thing, so those that do intend to participate can hash out parameters of appropriate interactions whilst the sparring takes place.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:24 / 19.11.02

The main problems I can see would be twofold. One: unless the exercise is approached with a certain degree of caution, there's a chance that it might go a little too far, giving one or other of the sparring partners a califlower ear, and two: there's always a possibility of ascribing events to magick when they originate somewhere else. The human mind has some very powerful pattern-recognition skills, and sometimes that means we see patterns where there aren't any.

To avoid these problems, participants should be very specific about the kind of effects that they're trying to achive and should could keep detailed notes (of course, we all keep our journals up to date like good little mutants, don't we?).

18:24 / 19.11.02

Simply trying to cause the other to look foolish could be a good goal. Its a good slap that doesn't actually damage, but that in defending against it causes one to be, well, less foolish overall, which is a positive result for either side. Well, provided someone doesn't slip up and fall on a bannana peel, that is.

18:58 / 19.11.02

I have thought about this too, previously.... it was on the tip of everyone's tongue....Mordant C@rnival just gave it a name.

I think that having to be very controlled in these exercises is part of what will make it an exceptional tool for development. When making a magickal strike it will have to be precise, that takes skill. Great way to up your game.

Maybe before any friendly, magickal combat takes place the two contenders could come to a agreement as to limits and if one decides it is too much all games must cease.

Trying this with different partners can also help define what approach one has and when and how it is best engaged. One pair may find that they seem to get neutral results, where in another pairing, the result could be devastating.

I would love to try this.

19:37 / 19.11.02

The human mind has some very powerful pattern-recognition skills, and sometimes that means we see patterns where there aren't any.

These proposals seek to maximize randomness and community involvement, assuming that the parameters of combat have been agreed on previously:

All those wishing to take part submit privately to a referee.

The ref puts the ranks together however ze sees fit.

The ref notifies the combatants of their victims, but not vice versa.

The combatant keeps the ref up to date on their own feints and blows, as well as a brief daily account of hir life, and can withdraw at any time -- the referee will notify the concerned party.

After the contest ends (a period agreed on ahead of time), the ref divvies up results and announces winners and losers.

I couldn't possibly be a combatant, but I'd fall all over myself to referee.

The Tower Always Falls

21:56 / 19.11.02

I find myself terribly intrigued by this idea. Yet also terribly intimidated at the same time by those on this board that are far more versed in magickal tactics than I. I'm still a little mage-baby I feel.

Then again, kids often get into scraps don't they? I'm game, but I also want to echo the suggestion to make the attacks benign. I'm much more partial to the Monkey-synch attack idea rather than the "embaress your opponent" idea. Too much potential for hurt feelings and people and all that... And I may hold off until later in the game when I'm a bit more ready I feel...

Watch, we'll draw straws and it'll be me versus impulsivelad and I'll be running into unpleasant exes with new gecko tatoos all week...

00:40 / 20.11.02

Damn it!!

You were supposed to 1) not hit me yet, and 2) warn me first!!!

[/hissy fit]

I got tagged at work to do a shit-job relating to our chemical inventory, and ended up spilling and cleaning up a jar with a loose-fitting lid. Think of weapons-grade laundry detergent... all light and flaky and very airborne, rather than granular.

Let's play nice, shall we??

Nietzsch E. Coyote

01:29 / 20.11.02

COUNTING COUP

I don't think it would be constructive for people to go around 'zapping' each other indiscriminately. Hence the American Indian concept of 'Counting Coup' where the sense of honour came through penetrating an enemies defences, and merely 'touching' them with a lance.

Doing this as a Magical Exercise necessitates that a minimum of three individuals be made aware of the situation: the two opponents and a moderator. The test can take place between members of a group, or individuals across time & space. Co-operation and strict honesty on all parts must be stressed.

SAMPLE GUIDELINES

Soror Wibble and Frater Bater agree to challenge each other and request that Soror Valknut act as Moderator. Soror V. decides that the time-span for the Combat will be six weeks - so the two opponents can attempt to Count Coup on each other within that period only - too short a period means that the opponents will most likely spend too much time 'actively' concentrating on their defence strategies - making the period several weeks means that either of them is more likely to be caught 'off-guard' - which is the whole point; testing awareness and responses. Each participant will individually discuss with Soror V. which Combat 'forms' they are likely to attempt, and to contact her immediately that they perceive that they have been succesfully 'attacked'. Soror V., once the combat period is over, can then assess each individuals' performance.

from "Counting Coup" by Phil Hine

Here is the rules that Hine played by anyone feel up to mixmageing the best rules between Qalyn's and Hine's?

That and I think I agree with Hine on the nessecessity of the time-span being a bit longer. Oh and no shadow time attacks on us before the game starts.

As to tower's question do we need to use the magickal equivilent of weightclass? Maybe everyone ranks themselves on a number of factors such as knowledge, natural talent, experience. and then group people by their total. Honesty would be required if you underestamate you will beat people who are lightweights, if your ego is too big the heavyweights will conjure the stuffing out of you!

02:49 / 20.11.02

Thoughts on the structure of this...

If people are interested in the "psychic mail art" idea - pretty innocuous stuff - that could be done with or without a moderator/ref. Two people agree to an exercise in projection/reception and PM either each other or a ref with impressions, odd dreams, synchronicities, etc.

Counting coup definitely requires a moderator/ref, and should have agreements on limits and "combat styles." I think that combat should be mutual rather than one person being strictly defensive - you'd know who you were pitted against. The pairs of combatants decide what's off-limits - nightmares/phobias? Losing stuff? Being clumsy in public? Specific attacks rather than setting a servitor on "harass" and forgetting about it? Posting running accounts or having the moderator sum up the combat after it's over?
Basically, what it seems to come down to is knowing ahead of time just how much of a challenge you're looking for, and then finding a willing partner.

(Give me about a week to "clean house" and I'll be ready for receiving/sending "mail art" or for being a moderator in a low-key contest.)

03:50 / 20.11.02

I think that combat should be mutual rather than one person being strictly defensive - you'd know who you were pitted against

I think there's some value in not knowing that. You notify the ref that you'd like to take part -- ze responds with the name of your willing victim. Your name has likewise been passed on to someone. Maybe the same someone, you don't know. As per Hine, there are preset dates to start and stop and you don't find out till it's over how you fared and who was after you. In this scenario, the ref, who has at least 2 files of daily brefings to draw from, posts hir summary of events -- the combatants can comment and natter over it, of course. Keeping it anonymous while the ball's in play, though, would filter out any interpersonal suggestion that might, all subconsciously, lead you to fudge things one way or another in your reports.

09:25 / 20.11.02

So that idea relies on trusting that a combatant knows what they're doing when they've been assigned to you without your knowledge of who they are? That's a hell of a lot more trust than you'll get from me.

09:42 / 20.11.02

Well it obvious that people do want to flex their magical muscles, just getting the specifics right - how about a royal rumble? Just kidding, I'm just trying to think of ideas - there's lots that could be done without causing any harm - how about a giggle attack, the aim is to get the other person to laugh for as long as possible for no reason, the ritual itself would probably be fun. In fact any "good" emotion or feeling would work - try and make someone feel unbelievably happy/alert or horny all day - I'm sure people would be happy with most of those

10:56 / 20.11.02

I'd just be interested in the idea of establishing contact with someone - seeing if I can recieve or pick up any impressions or the like. Be very interested in doing this with someone I don't know in the flesh. Also, if we drew a blank, could then exchange a magickal link and see if this works. Anyone interested, PM me.
Also, I'm happy to act as a refree for another duo - PM away.

13:51 / 20.11.02

Interesting...

I'm not sure that I'm down with the A vs B vs C model, where A is "attacking" B, but B "attacks" C. I would prefer to be defending against the same person I was stalking.

Put another way, my defensive magicks would involve limiting the striking power of my opponent, while forcing them to drop their guard... like a good old dead-arming. And while I have sparred physically against multiple opponents, I've never been told "you can't hit that one".

Iszabelle -> heh, I know what you mean... a sudden bout of clumsiness last night.

Cusm -> Looking like a fool seems to be my speciality, flipside to the mage and all... "Landing flat on Ass" all part of my job description.

I gotta admit, I've been charging up and practising my moves - with no designated target, but this threadpool would be the likely destination for loose thaums. Can I ask to be omitted from warm-up weilding until after the weekend? I'll be handling explosives and need to stay as safe as possiBOOM!

13:53 / 20.11.02

The more I think about Qalyn's idea, the more I like it. But, I do have concerns, much like expressionless... Maybe anonymous sparring can be graduate-level exercises?

In any event, the point I was trying to make with my previous post is that the basic idea is infinitely flexible, and the most important point is good communication about expectations and limits before the play starts. (Safe, sane, and consensual. It's not just for s/m anymore.)

I'm also up for simple contact exercises starting next Monday, would be willing to moderate sparring. Just drop me a line.

13:56 / 20.11.02

mixmage - I'll trade you your explosives for my chemicals - cyanide salts, neurotoxins and radioisotopes...

nah. didn't think so.

14:13 / 20.11.02

hmm. Well, here are my thoughts on the subject. (numbered for your ordering pleasure!)

1. Discipline. In any sort of sparring, this is absolutly necessary. You can accidently split a scull with a wooden sword.

2. Rules. Safeguards are important, but they have to be let go after a while. As (I think) Mordant your intention here is to improve self defense, and there are things out there that don't play by rules. That don't have "morals."

3. Karma. Like attracts like and all that. Be carefull about practicing to 'rock someone's world' or embarass them and the like. I don't know if it works on any sort of silly rule of threes, but it does happen.
I, for one, don't listen to this rule enough, which is why I'd be willing to play the bad guy for someone... but I'd need to meet them and get to know them a little first, so I could gague their limits and not push too soft (and have nothing be learned) or two hard.
And, of course, to see if me being offensive would even have any effect whatsoever.
You don't learn anything be being attacked by someone you totally outclass, accept a lesson in judgements.

As far as defense, I have to do it far too often to be interested in anything but an all out blitzkreig by someone better than me here.
And I don't want that right now, because I've got too much I'm covering my back for anyway.

But yeah. I'd love to play the bad guy sometime- just to find out what one thinks like.

14:28 / 20.11.02

So that idea relies on trusting that a combatant knows what they're doing when they've been assigned to you without your knowledge of who they are? That's a hell of a lot more trust than you'll get from me.

Well, I'm just throwing the idea out for consideration. I think you could learn a lot from the practice, but since I'm not going to be in it, I don't want to argue too strenuously for it.

But, exp, you have a pool of folks you're dealing with -- one of five or ten people who sign up. If you don't like the pool, don't swim in it. Yeah, there's a certain level of trust involved, but isn't that the case anyway? There's an agreement ahead of time about the parameters, and I think a system of approximate rankings would be a good idea, too, though I wonder if one badass could handle two small fry...

Uh, anyway. I'm rambling a little. I guess I've made my case. I'd still love to be the referee in whatever sort of contest you folks settle on. Feel free to PM me about it.

15:03 / 20.11.02

Iszabelle - seems a fair swap. Bring 'em to Paper Street and we got a deal.

[seriously, I'm rigging Pyros on a shoot and I don't fancy renaming myself Tyr. Thanks]

16:26 / 20.11.02

I'd be really interested in this exercise if it was only going to be with people who I know very well, handled in a way that wasn't related to a public forum. But this just seems to be inviting trouble if it's gonna be connected to Barbelith. You've got multiple suited people and a potentially an unlimited audience, some of whom may want to get involved. I'm also aware of people who have already felt they have been under attack from others on site, although I'll mention no names concerning culprit or target. So I won't get involved, but it's more than being a killjoy posting snarky comments to a thread - I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Perhaps it would be best for just those who have relationships off-site to pair up via PM, as someone else has already suggested.

17:33 / 20.11.02

I agree with expressionless. I think that this is a great idea and a very good excercise, but I've seen one or two incidents here where war magick has been suggested as a first resort rather than as a last one. I don't want to really get involved with those characters.

Outside of that, I find the idea of Counting Coup to be very intriguing and I'd like to see how things develop.

18:07 / 20.11.02

I'm also aware of people who have already felt they have been under attack from others on site, although I'll mention no names concerning culprit or target. So I won't get involved, but it's more than being a killjoy posting snarky comments to a thread - I don't want to see anyone get hurt.

It's inherent in the nature of an open forum on this subject. People are bound to use it in context against others within the forum.

It's bad, it's straight up fucked up, but I'm sure it's happened. And I'm sure it will happen.

Which is probably the reason I'm as supportive as I am in context of this excercise. If only it didn't make us all THINK about combat so much...
~waves the transducer over~

But yes. People are bound to become offensive, and thus cultivating defenses are important.

I wouldn't go to a bar room brawlers club without knowing how to duck and dodge.

Horrible example, but I think it moves my point, so... um... blah blah fishcakes?

20:31 / 20.11.02

The only rule of Fight Club is...

I'll play. Need a judge? Or is we short of participants?

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