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The Gender Gap - too far to be bridged?

 
 
Nermain
18:05 / 16.11.02
I'm putting this in the Conversation, rather than the Head Shop, mostly because this is my first thread and I'm chicken.

I recently broke up with my boyfriend. Another relationship gone. I'm not so much full of angst as frustration - yet again, an almost complete lack of communication saw me drift apart from someone I cared about. In the end, I think we almost hated each other. Quite honestly, even as a heterosexual woman, I don't understand how men and women can ever have successful relationships. Some do, they stay together for life or decades, but it seems to be happening less and less. I'm not going to say I hate men, because I don't, but I don't think I'm any closer to understanding them than I was years ago.

Do men feel the same way about women? Are same sex relationships better for all of us; are we naturally going to have a better understanding of someone of the same gender? Or am I just feeling negative right now?

(For the purpose of this discussion, I realise I'm only referring to two genders here.)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:24 / 16.11.02
I am not a psychiatrist (NDIPOOT) but, based on the fact that I don't know anything about you I'm confident to diagnose that you are just feeling negative right now, but only you can know for sure.

If you are looking longingly after other girls in the supermarket that might be a clue though...
 
 
Cat Chant
19:50 / 16.11.02
Well, to some extent, we are probably likely to understand people who have a similar experience of sex and gender as us better than people who have been categorized or categorized themselves as the or an other sex/gender: in broad terms, boys and girls are socialized very differently and are taught to be different from each other, and to eroticize/exoticize that difference - which is heavily policed - from an early age.

My own thinking on this is that if there is a pattern in your relationships that the gender of your partners - the way they experience and express their gender, the way their experience of sex/gender affects the way they think and act - is causing problems, you need to think about your erotic investment in gender - here, I'm guessing, in masculinity, specifically heterosexual male masculinity.

"Heterosexual" is a pretty broad term (like all descriptors of sexuality). What is your experience of heterosexuality? What attracts you to men? (I know that to some extent these questions are nonsensical and unanswerable.) What is it about men that attracts you, and what is it about being-a-man, specifically, in your boyfriends that has caused a pattern of lack of communication/breakups?

I don't know how long this pattern has been going on for - how many relationships you've had that have ended or whatever - so I can't really comment, but remember that if your criterion for a relationship is that it doesn't end, then that's only ever going to happen to you once. It seems quite normal to me to go out with people and then break up with them, to be honest, so it's likely that there's not actually a pattern at all.

If the pattern is to do with the fact that you always go out with people who can't talk about their feelings, then you should probably stop doing that, but that's a cross-gender phenomenon, to be honest. If the problem is to do with gender, then you need to find people of the physical sex that you are attracted to who relate to their gender differently.

Or maybe the problem is to do with race, or class, or the fact that all the boys you've been out with have liked the wrong kind of books or eroticized the wrong parts of the body or eaten their boiled eggs from the wrong end or yadda yadda. I don't think you should leap to the conclusion that it has to do with gender just because a lot of people have made a lot of money peddling the idea that there is some kind of deep binary division in the human race.

Hmm. Got a bit carried away there. Sorry to hear that you broke up with your boyfriend: that's a hard thing to go through, and good luck with it. Hope you have good friends to look after you.
 
 
grant
20:22 / 16.11.02
Of course, gender is a division, but I think most of the problems in relationships aren't gender-derived as much as they're "Hell-is-the-other-person"-derived.
(Heck, same-sex roommates get into some pretty awful fights without even, you know, having a sexual relationship.)

Ad campaign:
Boys. We can be good for girls, too!
 
 
Linus Dunce
00:01 / 17.11.02
Heck, same-sex roommates get into some pretty awful fights without even, you know, [I think we should insert the word "consciously" in here] having a sexual relationship.

My jaundiced and bitter view is that being an uncommunicative wanker is the flip-side of the thing that women find attractive on first meeting -- confidence and determination. It's so close to being arrogant and inconsiderate it's difficult to tell the difference when the magic's gone. I can name several women who've divorced men because after a few years they found them boring. I've not met all of the ex-husbands but I'll give you odds of ten-to-one that these boys weren't behaving any differently than they were the day they first met. And, frankly, we will continue to be assholes if that's what it takes to get laid.
 
 
Saint Keggers
04:31 / 17.11.02
Maybe its just me (although I doubt it)...but I dont want to bridge the gender gap. The things that make us soo different is what makes us interesting. I've had a female friend who was just sooo damn right out of left field that I was left feeling just like the first time I ever tried to sold a rubiks cube. I hated and loved every moment I spent with her. It was Jack and Diane (from Cheers!) Our relationship was very dada-esque.
 
 
gravitybitch
05:44 / 17.11.02
Men and women can be very different, but I think the interesting thing is what we do with those differences. I'm speaking (and bragging just a bit) from a post-coital fog after a lovely afternoon of sex with a female lover and the gentleman who "convinced" her that she's bisexual rather than a true lesbian...

My same-sex relationships point out to me how much is shared in being socialized as one gender or the other as well as how different the human experience can be even with that shared socialization. Relationships with men have emphasized how we do eroticize the differences in socialization as well as the physical differences. And my relationships with transgendered folk have left me questioning what constitutes gender...

I don't know. Maybe you could cultivate friendships with a couple of gay guys to explore the differences in perspective? Contrast their views on masculinity to yours, and look at how communication is different if there's no sexual tension whatsoever?
 
 
Nermain
08:47 / 17.11.02
Very interesting responses - thank you, and apologies for probably being very negative; inevitable at the moment but unhelpful.

I don't go for macho men, I thought I went for pretty sensitive men, that's why, I think, that I feel so frustrated. There *are* men I get along with very well - both straight and gay - on a friendship level, but it's once things go further that it seems to mess up. Especially after reading these replies, I think I need to look at myself a bit more. Not in a beating-myself-up way, but there's always room for improvement, and if I go into a relationship assuming communication is going to be fucked from the start, well it's not going to help things, is it?
 
 
Naked Flame
10:13 / 17.11.02
I think that one of the dangers of talking about a gender gap is that it typifies the gap that exists between any two human beings as a product of gender. There are lots of other ways to talk about this division- but essentially the fact is that we can never truly understand someone else's experience of life, and most of the typecasting that we do is an attempt to make sense of the other six billion people on the planet in terms of, or by contrast to, our own experience.

Certain people in my life simply seem to make more sense- their lives are not necessarily more congruent with my own experience, but we play well together, which is the important thing. They're the people that truly matter to me. I'm trying to think as I write this what they have in common, or what the relationships have in common, but I can't put my finger on it...

What I do know is that it's fantastically hard to sustain a relationship when you have different ways of seeing things unless you can communicate those differences.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:48 / 17.11.02
I wholeheartedly agree with Deva on this. Although this may have nothing to do with your situation, Nermain, I think it is possible to get too hung up on gender differences. Getiing on with others can be hard and chalking that up to being male or female doesn't always deal with whatever problems there are.

Also, I think one can make a pretty good stab at understanding another's "experience of life". It requires a good deal of patience, however.

Hmmm. But perhaps this is coloured by the fact that I am in a long term hetero relationship where gender isn't a issue.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:27 / 18.11.02
I can't help but notice that you've mentioned the lack of communication several times, Nermain. Speaking for myself, that's been the crux of most of my break-ups: one or both partners failing to communicate w/one another. Even if it doesn't lead to major problems (which it usually does), it creates a distance.

Insofar as gender difference is concerned, I'm not terribly convinced that it's a universal problem. There are times when the gender gap is going to be extraordinarily pronounced, to be sure, but that is not necessarily always going to be the case. It takes, again, communication and some attempt at understanding on the part of both parties to overcome these differences. And a willingness to be flexible. I've been the more feminine half of a relationship before (several times, actually). And I've unquestionably been the more masculine of the pair (although the masculine me is a laughable shade of pure, rippling machismo). But, for me, the best relationships are those where there isn't any state of subtle subordination/domination. Where, despite the fact that some gender difference unquestionably exists, the normal roles are subverted and we let things go fluid. Open lines of communication, mutual respect, flexibility, understanding...these things are key in any good relationship, I would expect.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:21 / 19.11.02
It's been my experience that, while men and women are different in some ways (I think), there are far, far more similarities than differences. It's just for some reason people, and certainly not just you, Young Barbelithan, think that the way to make sense of a broken (heterosexual) relationship, "What Went Wrong," and all that , is sometimes to try and understand Men. Or Women.

Unfortunately it isn't that simple. There are "masculine" women and "feminine" men and women who are sometimes feminine but sometimes masculine but sometimes more a combination of the two and men who are sometimes feminine but sometimes masculine and sometimes a mix and sometimes you can't tell and so on and so on and so on...

You probably do have some (possibly unhealthy) patterns that you keep repeating in your relationships, but hey, welcome to the real world. We all have them, and usually they never quite go away, more, you learn how to deal with them, manage them, etc.

I suspect your problems have less to do with Male/Female dynamics and more to do with personal relationship issues. And that's OK, you know.

*hugs*
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:46 / 19.11.02
Actually, I believe that men and women are very, very different animals. I see not so much a lack of communication - two humans truely communicating is a fairly rare thing, whoever they are - as operating at cross purposes, never connecting.

Yes, I am biased. We're all driven by our experiences, and I was in an abusive relationship with a man for a decade, but that said I still think men and women are poles apart. I'm not using that as a criticism, more an observation.

The above isn't an advert for recruiting lesbians, either. I respect anyone who can be in a relationship for years, even decades and be really happy with their partner. It's hard, and same sex relationships are no different. Well, I'm terrible at them, anyway.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:41 / 20.11.02
It might be a good idea to clarify whether we're talking about sex or gender here...
 
 
Bill Posters
15:03 / 22.11.02
Surely some examination of the statistical facts of the matter would be kinda useful here? Here's just one example, though of course there are others: details to be found under the 'Surveys' bit of this site, i.e. mid-bottom of the contents page linked above. Whilst stats are potentially dodgy things, I have never heard a claim that relationships between lesbians last longer than relationships between gay men. I have tried to find some online info which compares these findings to str8 couplings, and I can't, but IIRC, surveys usually indicate that str8's are somewhere between gay men and lesbians in terms of 'partnership length'. I would like to say that I am quoting the (replicated) findings of others here, and refuse to be accused of pathologising lesbians, 'kay? That site is quite queer-friendly as you can clearly see. (These sorts of statistical differences are anyway meaningless on a day-to-day life level - as that link makes clear, the aggregate difference between gay men and lesbians is a mere 2 years, and if str8's are s'where between, in real terms it's irrelevant.)

The point is, I would have thought that unless these stats are deconstructed (someone by all means do so, I'm open to treating them critically), there is no reason to assume that het relationships are impossible, misguided or doomed from the start, or that men and women "never connect" as SFD claims. Quite on the contrary Nermain, it seems that gender is not to blame for your troubles; in fact, the chances are that it would have ended slightly sooner had you had a girlfriend. Good luck getting over it and moving on!
 
  
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