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Magick as Solipsism

 
 
bpm77
23:34 / 13.11.02
Just a thought about magick, and life in general, that I'd like to get feedback on. I left magick behind a while ago, and have just very recently become interested again. I am by nature a skeptic, and I find the concept of magick pretty much as ridiculous as religion. Which I find pretty fucking absurd. However, I have found that (if nothing else) magick practice has given me increased awareness of myself, my surroundings, and the strange little coincidences of everyday life. While I don't believe that staring at a little drawing while jerking off actually causes anything to happen 'out there,' I do find that sigils, trances, etc are in some ways valuable to me. Getting to the heart of the matter, I think that magick and solipsism are very compatible, and in fact that the former requires the latter. The definition of solipsism (which is much misunderstood): the doctrine that, in principle, 'existence' means for me my existence and that of my mental states. In other words, everything which I experience - physical objects, other people, events and processes, in short, anything which would commonly be regarded as a constituent of the spatio-temporal matrix in which I coexist with others - is necessarily construed by me as part of the content of my consciousness. For the solipsist, it is not merely the case that he believes that his thoughts, experiences, and emotions are, as a matter of contingent fact, the only thoughts, experiences, and emotions. Rather, the solipsist can attach no meaning to the supposition that there could be thoughts, experiences, and emotions other than his own. In short, the true solipsist understands the word 'pain', for example, to mean 'my pain' - he cannot accordingly conceive how this word is to be applied in any sense other than this exclusively egocentric one.

Given this definition, I think that magick functions on this level, to the extent it functions at all. If I perform a ritual to increase my chances of finding a job, it alters nothing except my own expectations and my behavior, which then lands me the job. No outside force necessary. Any thoughts?
 
 
the Fool
02:37 / 14.11.02
Its all just belief games we play with ourselves anyway. Religion is just a belief game, so is magic, but so is being political and even having fun. Other people are a belief game too. I could choose not to believe in them, but where is the fun in that?

Your idea has a belief game in it too, it holds that belief may only affect an individual from within. This might be true, but it also might not be. It depends on what you believe and how you play the game. There is a lot of uncertainty just floating around, that is the stuff of magic. Belief games affect the uncertain prime chaos at the heart of everything.
 
 
spidervirus
03:22 / 14.11.02
for the past year that i've been experimenting with magick and it seems that is all just behavioral and perception adjustment and working along the lines of using the sub-conscious to start a sort of butterfly effect. however, i have had some instances with sigils which could refute this statement, for example such an instance occured where i did a sigil which i was convinced that i could not partake in its manifestation... and it worked. it involved a random phone call and a specific sentence i wanted to hear.
basically i have come to the conclusion that maybe magick is just a way of allowing ourselves to break away from the social "fail safes" that restrict us from actually using our minds to its fullest extent.
bpm, i'll agree that magick does work on the level you describe and that a lot of magick deals with altering behavior and consciousness and everything else. in most of my workings i usually approach these things with a more scientific and analytical mind set than a "mage" type mindset...hell maybe i should just hang it all up now and start learning fractal mathematics. but in any case... thought is a powerful thing. thought is our vision of reality and since thought is relative that means reality isn't real. given this statement, one can then assume that thought is the hacking tool of the universe. i guess its all about making pathways in order to achieve anything.
 
 
illmatic
12:28 / 14.11.02
Hi there bpm
you might find this thread of interest:
http://www.barbelith.com/underground/topic.php?id=9010

I disagree with you about magick solely functioning through personal expectation, if you stick with it for awhile (and this includes through disapointments and stuff not working) you might find you have experiences that contradict this...
But I do agree with you that magick is completeley fucking absurd, from a rationalist point of view. However repeated experience makes me think, it's rationalism that's wrong, and the universe is a bit slappy round the edges! This is not to say that rationality is "the enemy" or that it doesn't explain a huge proportion of our universe, its just that there are these weird incongruous bits in my experience.

And I've got to say that if something works for you and you find it useful for self-examination or whtever, then go for it. Most of the stuff I'm interested in isn't about making something happen "out there", I'm much more interested in using magickal ideas to generate a bit of awareness and self-understanding. I thnk that's much more valuable in the long run than having loads of magicial results manifest.
 
 
Sebastian
13:36 / 14.11.02
However repeated experience makes me think, it's rationalism that's wrong, and the universe is a bit slappy round the edges!

I second that. I take that a magickal perspective is a more inclusive perspective. Rationalism is plain linearity. Systems theory has shown that a more appropriate way to apreciate systems -or the universe if you want- is considering them not as just linear or in flat stability, but in a dynamic equilibrium, which simply doesn't fit in a strict linear-rationalistic persepctive.

Magick is sort of the ability to trigger or catalyze the disequilibrium that's already out there.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:08 / 14.11.02
I think that most people approaching the practice of magick, eventually tend to arrive at the conclusion that all it's all an internal process. If you do a sigil for a new job, this somehow programmes your behaviour so that you become more likely to get said job. This is a fairly plausible rationalist explanation of how magic can work. It's an appealing paradigm as it allows for the possibility of magick being real, without compromising the rationalist mind set and general established belief system of the prevailing culture we belong to. It's only a few steps away from NLP, which is now used extensively in business training courses, and it can be considered as a form of freelance psychological hacking rather than something silly involving elves or goblins.

Unless a 'magician' is more interested in living in an escapist fantasy world, this way of looking at magick and its workings is far more plausible and considerably more appealing. However, one thing I've noticed common to people who have been practising this stuff for a fairly long period of time is a gradual abandonment of this rationalist concept over time. I think that the more you practice, the more you begin to have experiences that just don't sit within the tidy comfort zone of "it's all in my head". Whilst this way of looking at things might be valuable in the early stages of magickal practice, a period where you're still adapting to the idea that this stuff might actually work, it eventually becomes a bit of a hindrance.

For instance, working from a purely rational standpoint - if magickal results are achieved through tricking your unconscious mind into thinking that ritual actions cause real world 'magickal' effects, then who is more likely to get the better results: the person who is consciously aware that he's attempting to trick his unconscious mind, or the person who fully believes with every fibre of his being that he's doing magick and his magick works.

You may disagree, but I think the latter. It's like an extension of Austin Osman Spare's theories on lust of result. Coming to this stuff from a 'post-modern' standpoint where it's probably not *really* magick and more a type of depth psychology, is a useful perspective for some occasions, but it can also become an interference and start to actually hinder the processes that you're trying to set in motion.

You can make a convincing argument that it's all happening in the magicians head, but then so is everything else insofar as your impressions of reality are received through 5 senses and decoded by the brain. I believe some things which a lot of people would consider pretty mad, I believe them with the entirety of my being, and my experience is that they are real. As vibrantly real as everything else in the world - if not more so. This is where magick is at.
 
 
Rev. Wright
14:45 / 14.11.02
" This is the Abyss of Hallucinations. This is where our attention is usually focused. It is entirely constructed by our senses and our projected emotions, as modern psychology and ancient Buddhism both testify---but it is what most people call reality.' They are conditioned to accept it, and not to inquire further, because only in this dream-waking state can they be governed by those who wish to govern."

The Illuminatus! Trilogy - R A Wilson & R Shea
 
 
Badbh Catha
15:11 / 14.11.02
I'm not convinced that the outside world around me, as well as people that I interact with in that world, are just "part of the content of my consciousness". Surely they exist in their own right, and HOW I choose to interact with them is what's determined by how I perceive them consciously? HOW is not the same as WHAT...

Yes, I agree that Magick works first and foremost on the practicioner hirself, and consists of learning skills that aid one in perceiving one's world in a more open, variant way. But it also trains one in direct interaction with the world, which requires a certain amount of empathy and understanding of how other people think and feel.

The self-absorption inherent in "...the solipsist can attach no meaning to the supposition that there could be thoughts, experiences, and emotions other than his own" does not seem applicable for useful magickal practice.
 
 
bpm77
17:03 / 14.11.02
The self-absorption inherent in "...the solipsist can attach no meaning to the supposition that there could be thoughts, experiences, and emotions other than his own" does not seem applicable for useful magickal practice.

I feel quite the opposite way, myself. I think that if you assume that any magickal practice intends to shift reality, you would have to assume that you have control over reality. I mean real control, more than the rest of humanity combined. Otherwise, what good would your ritual do against the billions of other wills in the world? This, to me, is similar to both teams praying before a football game. Only one is going to win. Beyond this, you really have no access to anyone else's thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc. Everything you know is merely processed impulses. The very screen you are looking at right now does not look the same to a toad, or a cat, or even another person. You may remain unconvinced that the outside world is a product of your mind, but you cannot argue against it.

Your brain receives and interprets all data- sensory and otherwise- that you use to construct reality. You have no access to "objective reality", as you are confined by some very limited senses, which are sensitive to a very limited range of a few forms of energy (light, some chemicals, air waves). There is no such thing as red, but you see it every day. The rest of your perceptions are the same. It's the old brain-in-a-jar argument: you can never prove that you aren't lying in some hospital somewhere with this whole world being 'fed' to your nerve receptors by a machine. You may like to believe that to be false (and I surely do), but you can't ever be sure. Part of the reason I posted this is that I think that this is in fact a superior mindset from which to perform magick. If I believe that my reality is totally of my own making (consciously or not), it make the idea of manipulating it through random compulsive acts more believable.
 
 
Badbh Catha
17:49 / 14.11.02
Part of the reason I posted this is that I think that this is in fact a superior mindset from which to perform magick. If I believe that my reality is totally of my own making (consciously or not), it makes the idea of manipulating it through random compulsive acts more believable. –bpm77

Well, you're certainly entitled to feel that way, I suppose. It still seems that you're conflating how one perceives the world with what one perceives, though.

But hey, whatever works for you.

I think that if you assume that any magickal practice intends to shift reality, you would have to assume that you have control over reality. I mean real control, more than the rest of humanity combined. –bpm77

I'm not sure I'm getting you – if you think your reality is a product of your own mind, where does "real control" come from? If "the rest of humanity combined" doesn't really exist except in your consciousness (because no-one can prove otherwise), does the concept of "real control" even matter?
 
 
Francine I
18:38 / 14.11.02
"I think that if you assume that any magickal practice intends to shift reality, you would have to assume that you have control over reality. I mean real control, more than the rest of humanity combined."

I see no reason why this is necessarily true. What reason do we have to believe that humanity can be considered a combined force of will? In fact, folks are willing their traffic away to get home in a more timely fashion; willing their stocks up, willing sex out of people they lust after. Who says that they are all simultaneously directing an iota of their will towards the conditions that effect your ability to get a job? Who says every exact pathway of causality resulting in your desired end is spoken for by another's will? I don't see why Solipsism is a prerequisite for magickal practice and belief.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:51 / 14.11.02
Hey, am I allowed to remind bpm77 to write an abstract?

Frances, Conqueror of Cincinnati (heh heh), anticipates my opening comment: The concensus reality is not your enemy... unless you're doing something wild that openly violates it.

Say you wanted to magic yourself up a date with a certain elegible party; success doesn't violate the concensus reality. People hook up with extreme reliability. You've given it a little push in your direction, but that doesn't mean the elegible party doesn't exist.

Now say you want to win the lottery... well, you're in a tougher spot, because the odds are against you. Someone wins just about every week, though, so it's still within the realm of possibility. However, your biggest problem is going to be getting out of your own way. YOU know how unlikely you are to succeed, especially by wishing it so. YOU believe it's impossible to overcome those odds through an act of will. It's YOUR will, unconciously, to deny yourself the effect. You're participating in the concensus reality, and that's the only sense in which it's your enemy. It's the strategies to evade this little trap that are called "magick".

So, I get your drift RE: Solipsism, and it's not a bad perspective to toy with -- a nice belief-game, as the Fool says -- but what it really does is leave you alone with what you're trying to escape. By all means, explore it, but don't turn your back on it.
 
 
Seth
22:30 / 14.11.02
Great post, Qalyn.

I'm a firm believer in performing workings with and for people. It raises the stakes, makes you focus outside of yourself (surely the best form of ego annihilation), forces you to evaluate the success of your workings by other criteria than you would if you were working solo. In serving a community your workings will always have an effect on you anyway, often a greater effect than working by oneself.
 
 
bpm77
22:34 / 14.11.02
Hey, am I allowed to remind bpm77 to write an abstract?

???

What reason do we have to believe that humanity can be considered a combined force of will?

none. and perhaps solipsism is not necessary for belief in magick, but I still feel that it helps the belief paradigm. but moving on to your point, most magick is intended to sway things to your benefit. let us assume that reality is truly 'out there', and that your mental construction of reality is more or less accurate. given this, there are millions of people who also want to win the lottery, probably dozens who want to land the same job you want, etc. etc.

sorcery under the assumption that you are the creator of your reality seem to have an edge to sorcery that pits you against others with the same goals. again, I am positing this under the assumption that magick is an internal process that alters your own mindset rather than exterior forces. not to start a whole seperate arguement, but if magick really was involved in effecting outside events rather than the subjective reality of the magician, it should be able to directly manipulate physical objects-something I've never heard claimed (i.e. 'I can charge this sigil to move that pen across the table'). this example is really mixing up the point I'm trying to make, so if anyone wants to get into this kind of topic I suggest we do so on another thread.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:43 / 15.11.02
I'm trying to phrase this so that I don't sound like an arrogant jerk, an especial danger for me now that I've been paid a compliment by someone whose opinion I respect. This is all theoretical to me; I'm no magician. So, take this as friendly discussion and not an authoritative response.

I think the first thing that needs to be said is, if you can swing it, swing it. We'll applaud you (I guess you'd be applauding yourself, in that case). If you do win the lottery, please remember that Tom can always use help with the Barbelith bills.

You're on an interesting track, bpm77. Magick can work pretty much any way you want it to, so long as you are utterly convinced, while you're doing it, that it's true. However, it's difficult to convince yourself unconsciously that something fantastical is true. There's a word for people who have no doubts about their irrational beliefs: fanatics. I want to point out the danger to you as a magician in Solipsism, believing that your will is the only existential object.

People are a big cloud of chemical and ideological memes. That means, there are configurations of chemical matter that make you what you are, and configurations of ideas that make you who you are. Just as you aren't aware of the replacement of cells in your bones and organs or the growth of a tumor, you're not aware of everything that goes on in your psyche (psyche, if I'm not mistaken, is a word referring to both mind and soul). Your psyche, like your body, is made up of organs and processes you're not aware of. Among those processes is a defense mechanism, or series or species of mechanisms, that keep you "sane". These sanity mechanisms are what tell you it's unlikely you'll win the lottery by willing it, and there's a reason they do it. You need to be sane in order to cooperate with other humans to get food, shelter & nookie.

So, what happens when you solipsistically command the universe to award you several million dollars by lottery? Your first adversary will be your own sanity mechanisms. While it might be theoretically possible to hack your own defense mechanisms, it may not be a good idea. You need them in working order. It's a bit like locking your door and leaving the key under the mat.

A different and, I gather, safer technique for dealing with your own mechanisms is to use wit, not force -- trick them. Tell them, "I'm going to play this little game with, say, a circle of salt, some astrological hooey, and this here knotted rope." And while they're busy dealing with all that, you work your will. In fact, I think it's possible for many people to see the future with startling reliability. It might be possible & perfectly rational and realistic, hence no threat to my sanity mechanisms, to foresee the winning numbers and play them, rather than forcing the entire machinery of chance to play by my rules.

Another advantage of living in a universe populated by others is that we can help you with your doubts. You can say to your mechanisms, "Look, these other folks are doing it. It might help us get food, shelter and/or nookie, so just play along."

Not even you exist. You're a crowd of cooperating yous that can't really be numbered. Since it can't be numbered, its boundaries are purely notional. Extend that boundary to include, say, the Magick forum, or whatever, and you've got an effect similar to solipsism but with infinitely deeper resources to draw on. Yes, you may occasionally have to compete with other wills for the winning lottery numbers -- but competition can be rewarding in and of itself. Maybe you won't get the money, because ultimately the odds and the combined will of others prevent you, but you'll get something.

Now, here's something to ponder. If you are solipsistically alone, why are you attempting to talk yourself out of it in this thread? Or, why did I want to discuss this with myself (in the form of you)? And what about all those ideas you've heard that were clearly not your own?
 
 
cusm
16:31 / 15.11.02
Granted, my view of reality is that the overall effect is multiple views and models happening at once rather than any one model being the answer, youcan take that into account with this post.

On one hand, magick is exactly what you think it is in terms of personal head games, and effects that work only on your own psyche. As many of us can attest, this is true and magick is a powerful and useful tool for psychological manipulation.

But the magickian also has this idea that reality itself is just a lttle bit malleable, and that things can be manipulated. Mostly, chance and random patterns. But none the less, that the will can cause change is the basis of magick at all.

These views seem in competetion, but really are not. By this model, your consciousness is a part of the workings of reality, and can affect it. So, if you change yourself, you are causing change outside of you. It is not that the sigel does the work, its that the sigel changes you and YOU do the work. Your will is focused, and you push in just that right way, and maybe its enough to make something happen.

As for solopsism, this is a part of this model in a way as well. Reality is malleable, and only your subjective reality can be considered real, for it is all that you know. So, if you change your subjective relaity, this puts pressure on the outside reality to conform with your will. Thus, you cause magick to happen.

You are a force. You are not an absolute force, and there is often a LOT of resistence to you. But you are still a force, and you can learn to push. Sometimes things happen when you do. They're always explainable by coincidence, because reality has to rationalize it as well, but they still happened. But you do it by changing yourself, and thus reality as a secondary effect.

As for the lottery, I tried that once. I was inspired and feeling omnipotent, and thought I would prove myself by forcing the win. I was focused, feeling strong, and had the head games all straight where the magick would work as long as I could hold on to it, so went for it. The psychic backlash from that had me hurting for a week. Really. It wasn't fun, I didn't win (though the numbers hit were numerologically close in a way I could see, so that's something), and the resistance I felt when I went all naked will against will with the Big 4 was much more than I expected. It actually hurt me. So many people all pushing and pulling at that at the same time every day, its not a good place to test your might. But I did learn a good bit from that, I'll have to say.
 
 
bpm77
20:29 / 15.11.02
Among those processes is a defense mechanism, or series or species of mechanisms, that keep you "sane". These sanity mechanisms are what tell you it's unlikely you'll win the lottery by willing it, and there's a reason they do it. You need to be sane in order to cooperate with other humans to get food, shelter & nookie.

indeed. magick can be defined as a series of techniques to overcome these very mechanisms, imo. I mean, is it really sane to believe that a random action (any ritual) can have *any* direct cause on something completly unrelated to it? it is one thing to perform a ritual to get into a trance state for possession, and then become possessed. these two states are directly related- no one becomes a loa incarnate while still able to balance their checkbook. however, it is quite another, and I would posit that it is textbook insanity, to believe that knotting a rope will cause another human being to break their leg or whatever end you seek.

just to clear the air a bit (it is getting foggy in here), I am not a solipsist. too disturbing to me to embrace. however, I do think that it is a useful mindset to dabble in for these purposes.

Now, here's something to ponder. If you are solipsistically alone, why are you attempting to talk yourself out of it in this thread? Or, why did I want to discuss this with myself (in the form of you)? And what about all those ideas you've heard that were clearly not your own?

ah, now we're getting to the fun part. ever have a conversation in a dream? one that presents new, previously unknown ideas and thoughts? why, as you (or rather, I, in our little game here) said:

Just as you aren't aware of the replacement of cells in your bones and organs or the growth of a tumor, you're not aware of everything that goes on in your psyche...Your psyche, like your body, is made up of organs and processes you're not aware of...You're a crowd of cooperating yous that can't really be numbered.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:30 / 16.11.02
I mean, is it really sane to believe that a random action (any ritual) can have *any* direct cause on something completly unrelated to it?

Sure it is. It's not rational, but it's sane. Sanity is just being able to cooperate with the people in your life. Or being in harmony with the outward manifestations of your occult self, as you'd have it. (I get that you're only presenting the perspective, so I'm referring to 'you' as the solipsist only for purposes of discussion.)

SO, you've got a point and it's a potentially useful one. Let us know how it works out.
 
 
Wyrd
22:16 / 16.11.02
What an interesting and thought-provoking thread. I'd particulary like to thank Gypsy Lantern for her (?) excellent post, and it pretty much sums up my own thinking.

bpm77
most magick is intended to sway things to your benefit.

Not true, and in fact this is the easist thing in the world to test. Do a piece of magic for some randomly generated result, in which you have no interest (and perhaps make it against your interests if you want to be a sadist), and sit back and see if it works. Now, of course, you could say that doing the magic means that you now have an investment in making that event occur, and hey, that's a good rational argument.

I do work all the time which has no benefit to me, but has for others. Part of my shamanic call (to use that cliche) is to be In Service. That means, to do work for Others under certain criteria, and often there is no benefit to me whatsoever. In fact, a great deal of the time there is an inherent risk in the work. However, c'est la vie. I cannot but do this kind of work, as it's who I am.

bpm77
I mean, is it really sane to believe that a random action (any ritual) can have *any* direct cause on something completly unrelated to it?

Oh dear, now we'll have to get into a definition of what is sane? What's insane to one person, is normalcy to another. What it all comes down to as far as I'm concerned is: results.

For example: why do we all think that money exists? Most of our financial transactions these days don't even involve hard cash, but are digits in a database. We believe in it because we can take out our piece of plastic, buy a new gadget, and walk out of the shop with it. What an amazing piece of magic! We flick on the light switch, and the light comes on. Cool! What happens if the light doesn't come on or our credit card is declined. Disaster, oh no, we no longer believe!

Actually, we'd probably discover there's a fuse blown, or the bulb is dead, and that we overspent madly on our holiday and miscalucated our credit limit. It's all pretty practical really. You investigate when things doen't work out, because nothing works 100% of the time. Same with magic.

Getting back to the whole "belief" thing, by-the-by. To harp on an old tune, I actually believe (ha ha) that belief is irrelevant in magic. Do you think that if you convinced yourself that electricity doesn't exist that the next time you flicked a light switch that nothing would happen? Nope, it's a part of this world, and vice versa. Just like the Spiritual/Magical is a part of this world. In many ways it all works along the same principals.

I think I've probably rambled off the point quite a bit.
 
  
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