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Non-violent racist-coping wih methods.

 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
12:13 / 12.11.02
The switchboard might be the wrong place for this sort of advice-wanting thread, but here goes...

I have the poor fortune to sit next to brain-dead racist bigot at school.

He bases his hatred of Pakistani people on the basis that when he lived in Woking (This period of his life seems to be very important to him) he knew many Pakistani people. He lived 'amongst them' - I don't know if he lived in a Pakistani area of woking or what, but never mind. He thought that the people he met were bigoted against him because he was White, and has so decided that all Asian people are nasty bigots.

He will launch into the standard-issue flood of racist bullshit at little provocation. The other people sitting around turn away in disgust, quite rightly. But I seem to get drawn into long, vicious arguements with him

Aside from methods of avoiding the arguments completely, what can I say to him? You see, I don't think he is beyond hope. He accepts that he has met only a tiny sub-miniscule fraction of the Asian people in Britain, and that his views are a minority. But he can't understand that he must not judge people on the basis of their race.

I expect people to tell me just to ignore him, that it's no use trying to make him look even stupider, as no-one else agrees with him. I have serious difficulty repressing the desire to slam his head into the wall, but what I am raelly asking for, I suppose, is a line of arguement or persuasion that I can use to convince him to, if nothing else, shut up.
 
 
Naked Flame
12:48 / 12.11.02
I guess it all depends on how old the character in question is. Some unlucky souls lose a lot of brain function right around puberty and it takes a while to come back.

There are lots of arguments you could try: the simplest is that if he feels he's been a victim of prejudice, then he should know it's a deeply unpleasant experience, and refrain from inflicting that experience on others.

Other things to try: find out who is reinforcing these ideas for him (bound to be someone...) or show him something groovy from Pakistani culture. (in my experience prejudice often wilts in the presence of good music.)
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:04 / 12.11.02
I can only respond from a white person's perspective. If you are not a white person, you should consult your parents or someone with personal experience of racial bigotry.

IMHO (as is everything I write), I would regard this as a form of attempted verbal bullying -- in effect, he's saying something he knows to be offensive just to show he doesn't give a damn what you think. I think, because things can be difficult at school, there's a lot to be said for standing up to him BUT NOT giving him a response to work with.

You could try something like "actually, there are very few Pakistanis in Britain, most Asians here are from other areas of the Indian subcontinent, which leads me to think you're making a lot of this up," and then resist the impulse to get involved in another argument.

Another action would be to tell your tutor you are unhappy with his behaviour, though this can lead to further problems for you because your tutor and your classmates may not understand your complaint or the bigot may use this as an excuse for worse behaviour.

I'm afraid to say I don't think he will be really reformed by arguments, and you will meet people like this wherever you go.

The only consolation I can offer you is that soon you will be at college or work. If you can put yourself in a position whereby you can choose to work for a decent company or attend a good college, you will be able to make official complaints about scumbags like these, and your complaints should be supported.
 
 
William Sack
13:09 / 12.11.02
This chap spews out racist crap regardless of the fact that he knows that he is offending and alienating people, and he is basing his judgments on meeting a "tiny sub-miniscule fraction" of a community? It sounds to me that he is more than just a racist - he is a fucking dick as well. It could be the case that his bad experiences with Asians were as a result of them recognising that he is a dick and treating him as such. My first reaction is - stay with your instincts, slam his head against a wall. My more measured reaction is that you probably would have quite a job on your hands trying to engage sensibly with this fellow. He will not not be susceptible to logic, practical example, facts etc. and will either just disregard or finesse them, and certainly won't allow them to get in the way of his bigotry. Hmm. Trying to be positive, and not coming up with much. What about introducing him to some Asians? Do you have an Asian friend who would be prepared to talk sensibly to this fellow without chinning him? This might work, but don't hold your breath on it. My own father was homophobic in the rather unexamined manner of many of his generation (puerile comments about poofters, tiresome innuendo etc. etc.) until I introduced him to some gay friends of mine. I think it was rather an eye-opener for him, and he even invited them to come and stay with him and my mother when he met them for the second time. Your racist school contemporary might be a tougher nut to crack though, as it seems that his racism is more examined (so he says) than my father's homophobia.

Good luck, and good on you for trying to confront this.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:53 / 12.11.02
The abstract asks how to argue with racists. I'm not sure you can do more than you already have, arguement wise. Is it worth trying to discuss the power dynamics here? - asking why the Pakistani people he 'lived among' didn't like whites? Probably a bit much to hope for that he would understand that it could be that their experiences suffering racism might just have coloured how they see whites.

I would certainly not want to sit next to this person at school. I thought all schools these days had anti-racist policies, and so perhaps you could warn him that, unless he wants an intelligent debate on the issue, a bigoted tirade is out of line and he'll be reported if he carries on. He has to know that this stuff is unacceptable.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:06 / 12.11.02
I'm not clear on whether he specifically dislikes Pakistanis and takes them as representative of the entire human population between the Ural and Himalayan mountain groups, or whether he's using his personal experience with Pakistanis to internalize and justify a culturally supported bias against brown-skinned muslems or "Persians" or whatever ill-defined label is being slapped on the current Enemies of Democracy. Maybe a bit of both.

In the first case, you've got a case like the Mexicans in California or the Koreans in NYC's inner city -- an immigrant group with a lot of visibility in some labor sector given to class conflicts. Put two different cultures in close proximity with limited resources and they'll start hating each other. It's only natural, and probably not harmful in the long run. Once he's been out of Woking long enough, these feelings will fade. Within the ghetto, conditions will eventually change (most likely, the more industrious group will move out).

In the second case, he just needs to read some books. His illusions are so filmy that just minor exposure to different perspectives will dispell them. However, it's probably not your responsibility.

My last thought has been mentioned -- this is someone who likes to argue. If you like to argue as well, enjoy him. You're probably bothered -- subconsciously, now -- by a creepy feeling that your argument, because it's based on something like compassion, is "soft" or anti-competitive. Being anti-racist is kind of like not liking football; believing in justice and stuff like that is all touchy-feely and therefore not very manly. There are plenty of example of hard-case anti-racists, though, and there are manful ways of posing your argument. Think of it as a challenge to your rhetorical abilities.

However, if you don't like arguing, your only option is to ignore the little bitch.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
17:23 / 12.11.02
Thank you all for the interesting points.

I am not personally offended of intimidated by his racism. I have never known him attack people on an individula basis. I, like him, am white. And he is only ever racist in the presence of white people. In one revealing incident, he was spouting the usual racist crap, when an Asian girl walked into the room. He shut up alomst instantly, for almost a week. He is a classic coward.

Thing is, despite his obnoxious opinions, the guy's not stupid. He can form logical arguements about other subjects; science, politics etc.

I do get the feeling that he is getting many of his ideas from somewhere else - maybe even his family.

But he very specifically has a grudge against Pakistanis. He's not like other racists I have met who talk about 'foreigners' or 'immigrants'. I have come to think he (or his family) may have had a specific experience with a group of Pakistanis which started him off on racism.

As for me I don't enjoy arguing with him at all. But I find it difficult to let his comments pass by without saying something against it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:00 / 13.11.02
If he's not stupid, and he IS willing to admit that his opinion depends on very limited experience, then...

...he's a dick.

Don't make a big issue out of it with him- if he's just DELIBERATELY being a dick, it'll encourage him. Just get him on specific occurrences- EACH AND EVERY time he makes one of these comments, come back at him. And leave it at that. Sooner or later, he'll realise you KNOW he's being a dick, but he won't even have the fun of an argument. He'll get bored.

If this doesn't work after a few weeks, then get confrontational, because he's probably a GENUINE bigot.

If confrontation doesn't work, then... I dunno? Shove shit through his letterbox? (joke.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:00 / 13.11.02
Oh, and try asking him if he can find Pakistan on a map. That's always a good one.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:29 / 13.11.02
...or as him to find the UK on a map...
 
 
Seth
07:24 / 13.11.02
Take a dictaphone into school and make a sly recording of him next time he's mouthing off. If possible try to engineer the situation so that there are a few other people around, and so that he says his full name on the recording, so he can't weasel his way out of it later. That gives you a whole variety of options for, ooh, running the recording on student radio, that kinda thing. However, my guess is that you won't have to take it that far. Let him know you have his remarks taped for posterity. Play him his own voice spouting hatful comments: in all likelihood he won't be used to his own voice on recordings, so he'll be especially surprised by how thin, reedy and pathetic he sounds. When he hears his own gutless motherfucker of a voice espousing dumb reactionary comments it'll probably take the heart out of his argument, and the prospect of what you might do with the tape will terrify him. One instant convert to the cause!
 
 
William Sack
09:48 / 13.11.02
3K - your racist acquaintance seems to be placing great stock in his "authentic" experiences living on the front-line in Woking. I'm not sure what part of the UK you are living in, but just a couple of facts about Woking. Woking is an affluent town in Surrey (one of the more affluent home counties) with an ethnic population of around 5.4% (UK average approx. 7%).
This chap seems to be suggesting that he knows what it's like in the ghetto - what a fucking dick. I think you should confront him with these facts and take the piss out of him. Ask him about his experiences living on the edge and keepin' it real straight outta Woking. Don't be too harsh on him though - it must have been tough for him living in a town where unemployment runs to a whopping 1%, 77% of households are owner occupied, and 81% have access to a car.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
10:25 / 13.11.02
Yes, as a Woking boy myself, I can testament to the fact that it's as hardline as a village fete. The only thing that could be said about it I suppose is that's it's an incredibly boring town. HG Wells hated it so much he wrote War of the Worlds so he could have aliens destroy it. Paul Weller wrote the song 'Town Called Malice' about it.
Some nice restaurants, though.
 
 
William Sack
11:37 / 13.11.02
Martians, eh? They come over here, with their fancy heat rays, destroying our town...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:41 / 13.11.02
Sounds like this kids getting his ideas from his parents or maybe he's just trying desperately to be tough. The thing is it doesn't really matter because he's unreasonable and he doesn't actually know how to change his mind. So maybe you should just leave it and start to find out more about his personal situation instead.

I'm going to go out on a limb here - he's attention seeking and most probably his parents have been going through a hard time or they're divorced or something equally as nasty for someone quite sensitive at a young age. This reminds me of being fourteen and having this girl called Clare sitting next to me in class. She was always going on and on about Paki's. You know, the usual shit, I used to call her up on it but she never heard what I was trying to say to her. She was very aggressive and it was pretty much because she was being shipped constantly between her parents from house to house all the time. They were treating her like an object or at the very least she felt like one and her step mother always ended up looking after her. She didn't hate anyone but she did hate everyone. All the time she put on this face for the world, like she was trying to be strong, of course it wasn't working at all because we all thought she was full of crap.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:56 / 13.11.02
You can always remind him that his 'race' isn't exactly a paragon of virtue when it comes to racism. There's plenty of examples to choose from, and you don't have to stick to racism either.

But I'm with the Chairman on this one. His logic is fundamentally flawed. Opinions like "All Pakistani are racist" are textbook racist themselves (show him a dictionary), logically denying him the moral high ground from which to complain (read 'whinge'). If he can but won't understand that, he is just a dick.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:21 / 13.11.02
Show him this thread.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:09 / 14.11.02
He can't tell a Pakistani from an Afghani in all likelihood, can he?

Treat him like he's Scottish. Explain that you are Welsh.
 
 
gridley
14:28 / 14.11.02
I think Janina is dead on about him being attention-seeking. Does he seem to be seeking attention specifically from you? Maybe he has a crush on you and like many teenage boys is a moron as to what he can say that will make you like him. If he's founds something that gets your goat, maybe he's driving it into the ground because he doesn't know what else he'd be able to talk about.

That said, my advice would be to just try and get him to talk about other subjects. If you can get him talking about other things, this racism crap might just dry up and blow away. These things thrive on reaction...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
02:03 / 15.11.02
Sounds to me like you've confronted his racism and let him know you don't appreciate it....now he's just using it as a power struggle.

And speaking as someone who deals with them on a daily basis, the only way to win a power struggle is not to play. When he starts in on it, either try to change the subject or just stop interacting with him. It'll be hard and nasty to do, but it's the only way to get out of it.

Then, when you get home, listen to the song "Your racist friend" by They Might Be Giants and scream along with the lyrics to releave stress.
 
  
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