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Not Forgotten

 
 
Rev. Wright
18:47 / 09.11.02
 
 
Jack Fear
19:33 / 09.11.02
There's something about this image that makes me deeply uncomfortable... it's the kind of thing you might have seen at the time, except that the "puppet master" figure would've had a hooked nose and the words "The International Jew" across his hat.

One of the main reasons for initial American isolationism was just that sort of antisemitism--sometimes naked, sometimes coded--equating Big Business with The Jew. It's the same loathsome argument that was used before the Second World War, too, by people like Charles Lindbergh and that hateful little dungtick Father Coughlin.

And it's something that's creeping back into our discourse, even (especially?) on the Left: that slanderous forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is resurfacing--copies were, reportedly, for sale at the recent antiwar demos in Washington.

Was it Money that pulled the strings in the Great war? Or was it Empire? or Victorianism? or Tradition? I could make the argument for any of these.

The Great War may not have been the War to End Wars, but it was the end of a great many other things: of the notion of honorable wars between gentlemen, of the lie that dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, of the longstanding tradition of military service as a means of social advancement. And out of the horror of back-to-back World Wars came a Europe of ubiquitous democracy.
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:22 / 10.11.02
What are people's opinions on Remembrance Day? Does it glorify war too much? Or is wearing a poppy just of personal significance?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:13 / 10.11.02
To go on something Jack mentioned, I've noticed that in a lot of arguments now people (and I've not argued with enough different people to note whether this is an American thing or not so I'm leaving it for now as people) who are vaguely right-wing seem to be invoking the Jews and anti-Semitism to try and win their arguments, so much so that I feel as if we need a new or a re-writing of Godwins Law. Anyone else noticed this, or am I just arguing with scary people?
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:17 / 10.11.02
Mm. Tricky one. Some people have worn white poppies to get around this. But I think watching someone laying a wreath on a monument inscribed with a great long list of real, killed people is completely to-the-point when compared to even the most realistic war movie.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:04 / 10.11.02
Previous post was to Barry.

L of the Flowers -- Most prominent of this would be the now acceptable "anti-semitic" description of anything critical of Israeli/US foreign policy. But I haven't seen much else.

In this case, the businessman in the cartoon looks more like a caricature of an Irish man to me, so one could argue that it was anti-catholic too. And I'm pretty sure a lot of U.S. anti-WWI feeling was not anti-semitic.
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:58 / 10.11.02
I'm surprised that my 30 second drawing would evoke calls of anti-semitism etc, its a fat cat with a badly drawn hat. It is there to call upon the idea that nations don't go to war without some form of economic motivation. That notion for me undermines any romantic idealism of warfare for ideology or defence of the realm.

Remembrance Day has meant more to me this year than any other, mainly due to the soldiers I was chatting with whilst drinking on my friends birthday the other night. Will I be wearing a poppy for them next year?
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:17 / 10.11.02
Will -- Indeed. I think Jack was looking a bit too hard.

It's not a new idea, though, that economics are the root of military conflicts. Maybe you could re-draw the cartoon to make it topical?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:06 / 10.11.02
To be fair, I wasn't looking at all: I simply found in the image an unfortunate, and certainly unintentional, resemblance to some thing that has always troubled me.
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:35 / 10.11.02
... which you used to associate Will with Coughlin and Lindbergh. To be fair.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:19 / 10.11.02
Thanks for telling me what I meant by my post, Ignatius: but, to be fair, I beg to differ.

It's the same as if I see a sauvastika in traditional Tibetan art; it's going to trigger a certain response in me because of my awareness of history and context. Does that response mean I'm "associating" Tibetan Buddhism with the Nazis? Does it bollocks—it's got very little to do with the original image, and nothing at all to do with the intentions of the artist.

The worst I can say about Will's image in and of itself, irrespective of any associations it raises for me subjectively based on my own experience and contextual awareness, is that its thesis—attributing the causes of the Great War entirely to economics—strikes me as reductionist. The Marxist model of seeing everything as motivated by the Tall Dollar is appealing, not least because it simplifies the world to a great extent: but frankly I think it's more complicatd than that, and partakes of some of the other issues I touched on in my post, including but not limited to antisemitism.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:57 / 10.11.02
Jack -- well, OK, I've re-read your post, but I can't see that you have done anything but liken the cartoon to certain, anti-semitic cartoons of the past, and then go on to say anti-semitism is becoming more prevalent. Thus you implied something quite specious. You then went on to say that WWI can be ascribed to other, different causes, implying a certain ... equivalency I find difficult to swallow (though I fail to see how "Empire" is very far removed from economics). I am not telling you what you what you meant to say. I cannot know what that was.

As for your this cartoon and your sauvastika comparison, of course, but to paraphrase Swift, it's one thing for a man to keep poisons in his cabinet -- it's another for him to pass them off as cocktails.

Now you are saying your criticism of the cartoon is just that it is reductionist. Well, I say a bit of reductionism is a good thing -- it stops the waters being muddied so much by name-calling and populist propaganda.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:53 / 10.11.02
It should be noted that the phrase "New York Banker" is used by extremist right wingers to refer to Jews. This, among other things, serves to create an association in certain quarters between money lending, banking and Jews.

This is no way implies that Will is anti-semitic. I think that Jack is absolutely right to say that the cartoon is disturbingly reminiscent of rascist posters. But I think it is possible to say that without accusing Will, who we all know does not harbour such sentiments.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:03 / 10.11.02
Perhaps if we looked at Will's cartoon as an example of the cartoonists' homage (like Rowson's Gillray pastiches) we could move on, eh?
 
 
Jack Fear
21:07 / 10.11.02
If I wanted to be contrary I'd say that the cartoon is itself is "populist propaganda" in its purest form, and that the very oversimplification of it obscures other important factors in the equation.

Empire and Economics are two very different concepts, and I should have elaborated on what I meant there: I was using "Empire" as a sort of shortahnd for both the literal imperialism rampant in the Victorian and Edwardian eras—that is, the administration of territory by persons not native to that territory—and to the imperial style of governance common in Europe at the time: by which I mean that there was, even in those countries that were not technically monarchies, a general lack of functional democracy and self-determination. Further, the empires of the day tended to operate in a fortress mentality, viewing interaction between their empires as a zero-sum game—attributable mainly, I think, to the lack of concepts that we take for granted today, such as "international community" and "international pressure." The Empire is resonsible only to itself (and, theoretically, God), and has carte blanche to do as it will—until it bumps up against its neighboring Empire.

These concepts are primarily political, ideological—perhaps even, at their roots, theological—and not economic. These concepts, I would further argue, helped create the conditions for the Great War, even if they did not cause it as such:

That's a lot of baggage for a single word, I realize—and in a misguided devotion to pithiness, I fear I may have confused the issue.

I will, further, cop that the paragraph on the rise of antisemitism in today's antiwar Left constitutes a digression, which has undoubtedly confused the issue. For that I can only beg forgiveness: as you may have noticed, I am not so Swift as some.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:31 / 10.11.02
Mr Fear -- I was only really worried you were working towards describing wars as solely ideological and, from that perspective, saying something about the present unfortunate situation.

I'd like to move on, too.
 
 
Jack Fear
21:50 / 10.11.02
I'll need to mull this over.

My gut instinct is to say that the Great War was the dividing line here, as with many things—that before the Great War, it may have indeed been possible to fight a war purely on ideological grounds—indeed, to fight a war based purely on a personal disagreement between monarchs.

But with the democratization, decentralization, and increased self-determination that occured in the wake of the World Wars, economics may be the only stick left that can prod developed nations into open warfare, though they will produce a host of ideological excuses.

!!WARNING: DIGRESSION AHEAD!!
Civil wars, on the other hand, are often—perhaps even usually—fought for reasons more ideological than economic.

Stateless terrorism, too, is more ideologically- than economically-based, and is often a sort of civil-war-by-proxy: Al-Quaeda's actions against the United States were, in an important way, an attack on the government of Saudi Arabia.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:34 / 10.11.02
I'm never comfortable with dividing lines, though I can see WWI as the first of the modern wars.

Empires, in addition to their ideological justification, were a way for small European countries to access natural resources for profit. I'm thinking Britain and America, Britain and India, Britain and Africa. So-called globalism isn't a new thing.

Civil wars are often economic. US Civil War? Generally accepted as not about slavery but states' rights (to control their own economies) and the struggle between the north and south for economic supremacy.

Al-Quaeda. Tricky. It's certainly war by proxy. But I can't factor out oil revenue.
 
 
some guy
00:33 / 11.11.02
Was it Money that pulled the strings in the Great war? Or was it Empire? or Victorianism? or Tradition?

Of course, tradition is bound up in social class (driven by economics). Ditto for Victorianism and Empire, despite claims to the contrary, is essentially about the control of natural resources. So yes, money was ultimately the driver of the Great War, as it has been for nearly every other war and indeed most human endeavours.

I'd suggest Jack's foray into connotations of anti-Semitism is more troubling (and telling) than the picture itself - especially when we consider it doesn't feature racial stereotyping in the caricature. I don't know that there is a rise in anti-Semitism among the left wing (especially if we are defining anti-Semitism as no longer exculpating Israel from its behavior toward Palestinians), so much as the right-wing discovery that claims of racism make for good ideological weaponry.
 
 
Turk
04:11 / 11.11.02
I think you're getting a little confused here. Empires may have been driven by desire for greater wealth but war between Empires isn't nearly so simple. Try adding culture, power politics, and religion, and you're getting there. Suggesting in such broad and all encompassing terms that money alone is pretty much the cause of war, you know guys know better.
In 1939 would we rather have had Britons decide that since war is driven by money they shouldn't go fight Hitler's Germany? Would that have preserved our way of life? What preference are we making here?

And to be honest, that drawing is rather offensive. I'm glad I'm not the one prostituting the symbol of remembrance to make a vastly over-simplified political point about war. Bleh.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:47 / 11.11.02
Laurence Llewellyn Bowen - bit Marxist there, old thing. Terribly unfashionable.

I actually agree with D here. Yes, economics, trade, and control of natural resources are all important causes of wars (and let's not forget that every war is different... with the possible exception of the three Anglo-Dutch wars, at least two of which were more or less exactly the same). But so are geopolitics, ideology, brinkmanship, religion... and I think it's a mistake to assume that there has to be one underlying cause for all wars. You could make a case that the current US regime's determination to wage war in Iraq is primarily due to a desire to control the oil (economics), to get another foothold in the Middle East (geopolitics), to mask internal problems (I don't have a snappy word for this, but it's pretty common if you ask me), or to finish off Daddy's business, or to rid the world of a weapon-happy repressive dictator. Pick and mix...
 
 
bjacques
09:46 / 11.11.02
Replace the tycoon with the guy from the Parker Bros' "Monopoly" game and you'll be ok. Or any overfed, broad-shouldered silverbacked WASP. Make him look ruggedly handsome, more the image of a CEO than a banker.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:46 / 11.11.02
In 1939 would we rather have had Britons decide that since war is driven by money they shouldn't go fight the Hitler's Germany?

True enough, but I would suggest Britain's economic position in Europe was under threat by German expansion as well.
 
 
some guy
23:11 / 11.11.02
I think you're getting a little confused here. Empires may have been driven by desire for greater wealth but war between Empires isn't nearly so simple. Try adding culture, power politics, and religion, and you're getting there. Suggesting in such broad and all encompassing terms that money alone is pretty much the cause of war, you know guys know better.

I know what you're saying, but I think if we analyze each of these strands we'll inevitably arrive at economics. Culture and religion are different dressings for the "power politics" you mention, which seem to me regrettably driven by wealth. Of course it sounds too broad to say "money" is behind war, but if we start examining the other trappings, we'll find the cash.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
04:57 / 12.11.02
to mask internal problems (I don't have a snappy word for this, but it's pretty common if you ask me)

wagging the dog?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:00 / 12.11.02
Ah, thank you...

LLB: I know what you're saying, but I think if we analyze each of these strands we'll inevitably arrive at economics. Culture and religion are different dressings for the "power politics" you mention, which seem to me regrettably driven by wealth. Of course it sounds too broad to say "money" is behind war, but if we start examining the other trappings, we'll find the cash.

One of those things no one ever agrees on, this; but again, I'd suggest that while you might have a point with modern warfare (though I'm not convinced, see my point above) I don't think you can ascribe every war ever to money - not even to money behind the other trappings. And I think it's misleading to describe religion, culture etc as 'trappings' anyway... they can be important in their own right.

It might also be worth thinking about what kinds of bodies wage war - not just states, but guerrillas, cells, polities, and so on. If Al-Qa'eda can be said to be at war, is their primary motivation economic? I doubt it...
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:33 / 12.11.02
Kit-Cat -- I suspect it's one of those things no one will agree on, too.

That said ...

If Al-Qa'eda can be said to be at war, is their primary motivation economic? I doubt it...

Personally, I don't think anyone can argue they are not attempting to change the balance of power in the "Middle East." For why? I find their methods abhorrent, but I find portrayals of these patently intelligent men as irrational, over-zealous psychos difficult to swallow, especially as all meaningful details are kept secret by both sides. To my mind, the fact that the area's only real income, from oil, is very unevenly distributed, internationally as well as intranationally (thanks to governments supported by collusion with the West) is a telling point.

Having said that, I'd like to repeat I find their methods abhorrent, especially as they in theory have other options.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:12 / 12.11.02
To add by bit to all this......

...the conflict in Northern Ireland, though fought under the guise of Religion, in reality many of the so called Freedom Fighters and Nationalists are known criminals with financial gains made from drugs, guns, protection rackets etc. Many of the so called punishment beatings issued are more commonly found to be retribution for engaging in trade on another persons patch.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:45 / 12.11.02
Personally, I don't think anyone can argue they are not attempting to change the balance of power in the "Middle East."

Oh no, of course not, but I think the balance of power doesn't consist solely in control of the oil supplies. I'm not trying to say that economic factors aren't important, just that they might not be the sole cause, and that concentrating on them to the exclusion of every other factor is about as helpful as saying 'they're just jealous of our wonderful western democracies...'

And going back to what I was saying, are the leadership of Al-Qaeda, whoever they may be, necessarily waging the same war as the more rank-and-file members? And - Will, I don't see that there's any inherent incompatibility between being a criminal and being a member of one of the paramilitary organisations; can't see why they can't coexist in the same person and be equally valid.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:37 / 12.11.02
Jack:
One of the main reasons for initial American isolationism was just that sort of antisemitism--sometimes naked, sometimes coded--equating Big Business with The Jew. ... And it's something that's creeping back into our discourse, even (especially?) on the Left

I've noticed some odd pussy-footing around anti-Semitism myself. I think it's worth examining whether a particular speaker is anti-Semetic or anti-Israel. Noam Chomsky, for instance, is hardly anti-Semetic. However you feel about Israel, the country is very clearly an aggressive player in both the military and economic globalization arenas. I don't know much about the Protocols, except that a bit of propoganda doesn't necessarily bear on the issue. Anyone can sell a book in a parking lot, y'know?
 
 
Rev. Wright
20:37 / 12.11.02
Kit-Cat Club...

It could depend on what is the primary motivating role at any given time. Resolutions and goals could effect perceived ethic and moral stance, and undermine ability to receive prefered status.

This applied to our current UK Government is evidence of a fine coexistance.
 
  
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