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Reverse Sokal Hoax?

 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:06 / 05.11.02
...or something akin to it, at any rate:

The Chronicle of Higher Education reports on a controversey about some papers on theoretical physics that were published in French scientific journals during 1999-2001. The papers, written by French science popularizers Igor and Grichka Bogdanov (they're twins), were peer-reviewed before being published, and subsequnelty denounced as "meaningless" by other scientists. Unlike Sokal Igor and Grichka are completely serious about their work. They received PhDs (though the merit of their work towards their degrees is suspect) for accredited universities, and as science popularizes, apparently have some credibility at stake.

The article is particularly noteworthy for the string of advisors who read the work and verified even if they, as they now claim, didn't understand it.

How does this differ from the purported misdoings of the academics satirized by the Sokal hoax? Is it different, or of the same species?
 
 
grant
15:36 / 05.11.02
"It's an interesting case study in how stuff that is basically nonsense is easily gotten past referees these days," says Peter G. Woit, a theoretical physicist who directs instruction in the mathematics department at Columbia University. "There really was a serious failure of the refereeing here."


It sure seems to have the same end effect....

Of course, they apparently weren't trying to prove a point, but trying to get a doctorate by publishing peer-reviewed articles, which seems a bit backwards.



Like Mr. Sternheimer, he did not follow all parts of Igor's work. "This was not our specialty," Mr. Verbaarschot says, referring to the dissertation committee. "Nobody on the committee had any deep understanding of the ideas." They relied on the journal referees who had accepted Igor's papers for publication in order to judge the finer points of the work.

"In hindsight, the weakness is that there were no real experts" on the committee, says Mr. Verbaarschot. "Maybe there are no real experts in what they are doing. What they are doing is so far out of the mainstream."

But scientists who say that they do understand the Bogdanovs' papers deem them worthless. "I'm quite sure there is nothing of merit in the papers," says Mr. Baez. "The papers are extremely eclectic in the math and physics terminology they use. Some people who read these and may not be knowledgeable on the terminology may give them the benefit of the doubt.

"I can tell that they're not really doing anything with the terms," he continues. "They're sort of stringing together plausible-sounding sentences that add up to nothing."


It's pretty funny, actually. There are fields and specializations out there about which everyone else knows nothing.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:15 / 05.11.02
Actually, its pretty easy to write in a way (or about a subject) that no one understands. Its much harder to be comprehensible.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:18 / 06.11.02
Here's another short piece about the controversey. This time, there are translated excerpts from the articles, and if you can read French, and think you can understand complicated physics that may or may not make sense in that language, you can read the brothers' theses.

All of this suggests a new theme : "The French - Enemy to Clear Writing in all Areas of Human Knowledge." can someone stop the French disease?
 
 
Pepsi Max
00:38 / 07.11.02
Is science in a similar state of disarray as the humanities (if you accept Sokal's thesis)? Would an incident like this prove it?

Well that depends if you see the humanities in a state of disarray.

I think this proves two things:
- The sciences cover an extrordinary range of subjects and methods.
- Humans (i.e. referees) make mistakes.

I do not think this will generate the same level of controversy as the Sokal hoax. But that is due to the socio-political divides within academia that the Sokal affair tapped into.

All of this suggests a new theme : "The French - Enemy to Clear Writing in all Areas of Human Knowledge." can someone stop the French disease?

And what French writers have you read?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:14 / 07.11.02
Its quite different from the Sokal hoax, for lots of reasons, as has been pointed out.

I would say that this is more than human error, however. It demonstrates sheer incompetence, and probably laziness, on the part of the referees in question.
 
 
grant
20:28 / 07.11.02
It seems like the "incompetence" might also be due to the problems of overspecialization - the reviewers (and the dissertation commitee??) simply didn't feel qualified to question the research, so they left it alone. They *should* have asked experts in the field (or sub-sub-field, as the case may be), but may have been unable to find any, presuming they made more than a half-assed try.
 
 
grant
13:08 / 11.10.06
It's happened again....

Via Slate and Openscience, a report of an extraordinarily interesting experiment carried out by Professor Harry Collins, a sociologist working at Cardiff University. Prof Collins is a sociologist who has spent the last 30 years studying the community of scientists who work on the detection of gravity waves. The idea was originally to study the dissemination of a major discovery through the scientific community, but unfortunately the discovery of gravity waves was imminent in 1976 and has been imminent ever since, but there you go.

A consequence of this long-term involvement, however, is that Prof Collins has been hanging around the gravity waves community for longer than a lot of physicists and has picked up a lot of the language.

...Seven questions on the subject of gravity waves were submitted by email to Prof. Collins, and to a proper physicist, with instructions to them both to not look the answer up but just to reply from general knowledge. The answers were then submitted to a panel of judges who were gravity wave physicists, asking them to identify which one was really coming from a physicist and which one came from a well-informed sociologist.

...All but one of the judges picked Harry Collins as the physicist. Which is obviously hilarious, but what does it prove?


I find Openscience's answer to that rhetorical question pretty interesting:

Not a single scientist is going to be surprised that a talented and interested amateur can understand their field well enough to answer qualitative questions about it. Science is not a secret society, and our methods and results are open to the public.


What I find somewhat alarming is the idea that this is news... that this was somehow worth experimenting on.

Has science become that alienated from common discourse?
 
 
Quantum
14:42 / 11.10.06
It does seem to be pretty far from most people's understanding. Witness the dearth of science teachers, the dumbing down of popular media, the quietness of the Lab here- science is seen as the domain of experts, like a priestly caste with special white-lab-coat powers beyond the common man. Not so Sociology I notice.

(I'm agreeing a move of this to the Lab from HS by the way)
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
15:22 / 11.10.06
I saw Harry Collins present this work a few weeks ago and I think it is worth pointing out that his intention is far from pointing out that sociologists can "fool" scientists.

The study is part of a wider research project on expertise, and this one part of it was, according to Collins, more to explore how different types of experts can collaborate on one project without all having the practical expertise of each other's discipline...thus his point is that the discourse based 'interactional expertise' allowed different experts to communicate and to complete a project where many different skills are needed, but everyone did not require the 'contributory expertise' where one is actually able to do the science.

More can be found on the project and that specific paper here

The project does suggest though that even within a field such as gravity wave detection, there is a wide range of scientific discourses and expertise going on, and not everyone is well versed enough to be able to understand and actually do all the science involved. So when it comes to science and the public, yes, I do believe that scientific discourse is removed from the common context. In fact I would go as far to say that it has historically removed itself from the common context as it has professionalised so as to distance itself from charges of being political, irrational etc.
 
 
grant
20:02 / 11.10.06
So basically, is this sociologist's point that specialized scientists need interpreters?

That's something I've mused over for ages, but I'm not sure that's really what's being said.
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
20:29 / 11.10.06
No I don't' think so Grant, in fact I don't think Collins is trying to be critical of science at all. Quite the opposite, I think that he is merely trying to understand how, when science and scientific discourse has become so specialised, are different experts able to collaborate and achieve anything without having to retrain in each other's disciplines.

There is however a more interesting question here about what this means for the public and science. Collins' views on this, unlike many sociologiists of science, is that the public should understand that science is not neccessarily infallible and often can be messy, but that generally the experts should be allowed to have a say in how science proceeds. In fact I think that this was the starting point for this latest research...who counts as an expert with enough expertise to bring to bear on their particular branch of science?

If you go to the project homepage and read the ealier paper there called something like the Third Wave of Science Studies it give more of a sense of this...plus it produced a huge amount of criticism from other sociologists my field...who for a long time have been arguing that the public should have more of a say over matters scientific.

Just goes to show we should perhaps all be careful of using blanket terms like 'sociologists' or 'scientists'.
 
  
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