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Thoth Tarot

07:20 / 05.11.02

Alright then, I've been mucking about with my tarot deck this weekend and I have a few questions, I'm guessing that at least a few people use this deck!

Alright so there are meant to be 78 cards right? Well I've got 80? Has there been another deck at some point? I've got two Magus cards, I know one of them is correct because its on the front of the box and its also in the actual book of Thoth and I also have a Magician which I can't find in my book and I don't have a Juggler card?

What I think might be the problem is that one of my Magus cards looks like it should be the Juggler, did they change the name? Do I have a typo on my card?

Does any of the above make sense??

Hopefully there will be a simple answer to all this..

Thanks for any help given.

07:31 / 05.11.02

Sounds like you got the same deck as me - I think Fredia Harris simply designed three different versions of The Magus and they have been included in recent editions of the Thoth deck for the sake of completeness, getting her beautiful art out to the public.

And I think the Magus/Magician/Juggler cards are all different versions of the same card, though they may have been given different names for some reason. I remove these spare copies whenever I do a reading - I suppose you could chuck one of them in as a random element for extremes!

07:49 / 05.11.02

Yeah that's probably just it, just thought it was a little strange. I'm just grateful I didn't have extra Ruin or Worry cards, that would have just made me paranoid.

09:46 / 07.11.02

I asked a guy (who happened to be a witch,... and an asshole, but thats off the point) about this quite a few years ago. He told me that they represented different perspectives you could experience. namely, optimism, pessimism and neutrality. When I asked him which you should use he answered that you should use whichever one felt right. If you examine the cards you'll notice that the one with 8 hands and the caduceus around the genital region looks downward, the golden bronze figure with 2 arms looks centrally or straight at you at you. The third, which is yellow-green looks upward. I have the deck myself but I rarely use it for divination.
This dude definitely knew a lot about the tarot and did a reading which turned out to be very negative and also predicted certain things 3 months in advance which turned out to be true. I like to maintain a healthy scepticism about magickal matters but I have to say that this guy knew his shit.
Hope this helps your own understanding.

11:06 / 07.11.02

That is pretty usual actually, that's probably what I'll use them for...Cheers

12:45 / 07.11.02

Sorry that was meant to say "useful" - Thanks

16:52 / 07.11.02

from a thoth tarot website, showing the green magus card:
"Some decks only contains the above version, while other decks contains the below versions too. If your deck contains all 3 versions choose the one you like the best."

03:58 / 11.12.02

Actually, Frieda Harris did three version. The first one (The guy standing in the caduceo and looking upwards) is MERCURY; the second (the one with many arms and looks like the FOOL) is TAHUTI or TOTH; and the last one(the one whose knee is on Hannuman head) is QUETZALCOATL. You just use the one you are more comfortable. The one that feel right. I have used all of them one time or another and they all work just fine.

05:08 / 11.12.02

I only have the Mercury card in my deck. I'm curious to see the Tahuti and Quetzalcoatl versions.

And any other alternate paintings. Are there any sites with images of the complete sets that I may peruse?

13:45 / 28.03.04

Besides having three magician cards what is the difference between this deck and other tarot decks and why is it called the Thoth Tarot?

13:52 / 28.03.04

And here's a pic of the three magicians in case you were wondering.

13:57 / 28.03.04

thanks ImpulsiveLadAdventures

Donald Michael Kraig, if memory serves me right said the Thoth deck and one other (the name eludes me at the moment) were not suitable for his simple divination method he explained in Modern Magick

the only Tarot pack I have is the Thoth deck

it was something about Crowley changing two of the cards positions around. Can somebody explain this to me?

I am a newbie so please be gentle with me!!!!!

14:42 / 28.03.04

old thread!

Joetheneophyte I'd consider buying Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot by DuQuette if I was you. I'm reading it at the moment and loving it, he really brings the cards to life as well as explaining the history of them including correspondence between Crowley and Harris

His explanation on how the cards fit into the Tree of Life is excellent and he is quite honest about how Crowley can be a little hard to understand and tries to explain some of Crowleys terms suitable for a beginner.

Great read.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

15:01 / 28.03.04

It's not so much that the cards were moved around Trump-wise or anything like that, it's that Crowley switched a few of the Hebrew (and thus the connected astrological correspondences) of several of the cards. First he assigned Lamed (corresponding with Libra) to Adjustment and Teth (representing Leo) to Lust. I understand that these are the traditional Golden Dawn correspondences.

Where Crowley completely broke with tradition was when he switched the correspondences of The Emperor and the Star. During the transmission of the Book of Law he came to the conclusion/was told by Aiwass that Tzaddi was not actually the correct Hebrew letter for the Star. He came to the conclusion that Tzaddi was in fact the correct letter for the Emperor. Se, in the Thoth tarot, He represents the Star and Tzaddi the Emperor.

While He does seem to fit the Star a lot better than Tzaddi does, Tzaddi's connection to the Emperor is based in part on some incorrect linguistic jumps and the connection (to me at least) still seems a bit shakey. However Tzaddi is aligneed with Aries, which is ruled by Mars and is a more apropriate fit than He.

Those reversals and changes in corrilation are why people from many schools of divination don't feel that the Thoth tarot can be used for "proper" divinitory work. To that I say bollocks!

Heh, I've been waiting all morning to say bollocks.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

15:03 / 28.03.04

I'll second that nod for DuQuette's book. I've tons of books on the Thoth Tarot, and tarot in general but DuQuette's is the best I've ever read. The included correspondence between Harris and Crowley and the close look at Harris' contributions are worth the price of admission alone.

15:19 / 28.03.04

I feel a bit like Homer Simpson in a class full of Stephen Hawkings

I am lost but you have inspired me to attempt to learn more

thanks for your help

and yes Bollocks is one of my favourite words as well

the funniest use ever was in the film "Mike Bassett England Manager"

the geordie footballer is in the communal bath after the game

he farts

all his mates laugh

he farts again

and says "Ohhhhh Bollocks".....his head dips and he comes up and says "I've shit masel' "

his mates all run from the water

childish and total toilet humour but I still laugh like a hyena on nitrous oxide everytime I see it

thanks for all your replies and information. There is so much I want to know and I am either too tired, too drunk or plain too stupid to grasp all this

but thanks anyway, I really appreciate the help