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American Values

 
 
Stone Mirror
03:29 / 01.11.02
In another thread, I quoted tango88 quoting an unidentified writer from www.counterpunch.com quoting Robert Kagan as saying "America is Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest".

I responded "He says this as though it's a bad thing. When has America ever been any different?"

The only one who rose to the bait was Kit-Cat Club, who begged the question by commenting, "And just because something's never been any different, doesn't automatically mean it's good..."

These American values: individualism, capitalism, freedom of expression and assembly (even though these values have been sorely strained in many instances) are precisely what have contributed to making America a world leader.

America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest". Do we need to apologize for that?

(Hobbes is one of yours, isn't he...?)
 
 
grant
14:12 / 01.11.02
How are freedoms of expression and assembly Hobbes-ian, exactly? They seem a bit of the opposite.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:07 / 01.11.02
Also, they're technically not values. Neither is capitalism, I think. Those are traditions we've set up in accordance with our values. Some sociologist came out with a set list of American values in the 50's and I don't remember the whole thing but it was stuff like progress, fairness, busy-ness, and science, and they all have good and bad consequences.

America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest".

Hobbes is the "nasty, brutish and short" guy, right? What's that got to do with the other three values listed?

Now, I've only recently begun to contemplate this and I don't have much evidence yet, but I'm thinking that what made America great is several generations of exclusive access to stupendous natural resources. If the founding fathers had been been canibals who based all their laws on monomachy, it would still be the most powerful country in the world.

I'm gonna go check out that other thread now. I'd avoided it because, frankly, reading posts where people call each other anti-semites is too boring for words.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:20 / 01.11.02
Stone Mirror: "America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest". Do we need to apologize for that?"

That's a damn good point. But what should also be remembered is that just because something works, and puts you in a position of power, doesn't mean it's right.

Yes, self-interest is important if you're trying to run a country (especially a "new" one like America). But once you're up and running, where does the morality fall in unilateralism when you're not directly threatened? (Iraq et al.)

You can become strong and wealthy just by nicking other people's stuff. But does that mean it's the right thing to do?
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:23 / 01.11.02
I thoughts Hobbes was the tiger?

Let's see... Tiger: "Magestic," Dangerous, BIG, sneaky, carnivorous, solitary.

accorting to the some chinese Mystic: A lesson that Tigers would be well-served to learn is "moderation in all things."

though it was the year of the FIRE MONKEY in 1776...

Um anyway, would include Competitevness & Conflict into any list on "American Values"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:49 / 01.11.02
So, half of you don't actually know what "Hobbesian" means, and yet you are debating whether or not it is a good thing? This could be very funny indeed....

Oh, all right...from the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy on the State of Nature:

Hobbes, for example, characterized it as an utterly lawless state of affairs in which 'the notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice ... have no place', and where each man has the right (or liberty) to do whatever he deems necessary to preserve himself. Such a condition, he says, is 'called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man'. He observes that under such circumstances 'the life of man [is] solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short'. Thus, Hobbes concludes that the only kind of political authority strong and stable enough to safeguard us from ever falling into such a horrible condition again is unlimited political authority, preferably an absolute monarchy. The authority of such a sovereign must be unconditional and indissoluble; the right to rule conferred on the sovereign must be such that 'whatsoever he doth, it can be no injury to any of his subjects, nor ought he to be by any of them accused of injustice'.

Locke, on the other hand, characterized the state of nature as a pre-political state, but insists that 'the state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges everyone; and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it that, being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions'. Because of this he views the state of nature as merely involving certain inconveniences. These inconveniences consist in (1) the lack of an established, known law that gives an authoritative interpretation of the law of nature, (2) the absence of an impartial judge to determine violations of the law and their proper punishment, and (3) the want of a power sufficient to ensure enforcement of the law.

Thus, while granting that 'civil government is the proper remedy for the inconveniences of the state of nature', Locke also admonishes us 'to remember that absolute monarchs are but men' and asks, 'if government is to be the remedy of those evils which necessarily follow from men's being judges in their own cases, and the state of nature is therefore not to be endured, I desire to know what kind of government that is, and how much better it is than the state of nature, where one man commanding a multitude, has the liberty to be judge in his own case, and may do to all his subjects whatever he pleases ... and in whatsoever he does, whether led by reason, mistake, or passion, must be submitted to'.

Locke concludes that the proper remedy for the state of nature must place ultimate political authority in the will of the majority, who will then entrust political power to governmental officials only under the condition that the latter promote the common good, reserving the right to remove them if they violate this trust.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:53 / 01.11.02
so.... um, Hobbes wasn't a tiger?
 
 
Sharkgrin
20:28 / 02.11.02
Yawn.
I 'll ask now:
Are being Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest bad things?

VR
The Shark
 
 
Linus Dunce
01:49 / 03.11.02
Are being Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest bad things?

Whatever, it's certainly not unique behaviour.
 
 
Pepsi Max
08:51 / 03.11.02
Taking this discussion relatively seriously. Let's break down this claim:

"America is Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest".

First of all, what do we mean by America? Are we talking about the "Aveage American" or the American State? And are we talking about America's internal policies or external policies?

The comments are sourced (indirectly) to Robert Kagan. A brief example of his views can be found here. He is specifically talking about the US State's Foreign Policy.

Stone Mirror>

These American values: individualism, capitalism, freedom of expression and assembly (even though these values have been sorely strained in many instances) are precisely what have contributed to making America a world leader.

America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest". Do we need to apologize for that?


You seem to have misunderstood the original quote. It is not referring to the internal American system. Now the two are linked - America claims to promote free market economics both at home and abroad. But they are far from identical.

Now I would suggest splitting this discussion into two threads.
1. Deals with the rightness or otherwise of America's traditions and values to which you refer.
2. Deals with the validity or otherwise of American foreign policy.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:25 / 03.11.02
In another thread, I quoted tango88 quoting an unidentified writer from www.counterpunch.com quoting Robert Kagan as saying "America is Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest".

I responded "He says this as though it's a bad thing. When has America ever been any different?"


I'm pretty sure this sentence does not appear in Kagan's piece, and even if it does, it's out of context -- Kagan writes that Europe sees US foreign policy as being "Hobbesian" and goes on to consider whether or not this is valid. He appears to consider it so, but places the blame largely on Europe's unwillingness to spend more on its own military. Personally, I'm not so sure it's an unwillingness as much as it is the knowledge that we can't really afford it muddying the waters of European politics. And he's suggesting we raise ourselves to the level at which we may compete with US supremacy? What would happen then?

He notes as well, entirely accurately, that US policy hasn't always been open to this interpretation.

So I think that, thanks to the unidentified counterpunch writer, we're on a wild goose chase here. But I'm open to persuasion ...
 
 
The Falcon
22:20 / 03.11.02
so.... um, Hobbes wasn't a tiger?

The tiger is named after Hobbes, as Calvin is after the notably strict religion's founder. Both characters are based on certain aspects of their historical counterparts by Bill Watterson.

So, your comic strips/toilet compendiums may yet come in useful in this debate. As they do in so many.
 
 
silpulsar
05:25 / 04.11.02
when american wealth is actually enjoyed by more than a few rich guys at the top, then maybe i'll agree that america's a great country.

until then, i gotta say that "being hobbesian, unilateral, realist and driven by self-interest" just stinks of avarice and that we should re-examine our ideals.
 
 
bjacques
17:24 / 04.11.02
ExecSum: It's a large part of the original
American worldview, rooted in our history.
That worldview is gradually being replaced
by a wider one. Bush is a throwback.

It all boils down to national experience
internally and externally, as Kagan partially
explains.

First of all, for most of our history,
from roughly 1600 to exactly 1900,
cooperation has been optional and usually
local. If you didn't like your
neighbors, you could go over the hill. It's
part of our "civic religion," and the
Jeffersonian ideal of a confederation of
smallholders still resonates strongly.
Our governments actively encouraged
exploration and settlement, buying large
chunks of land, from France and Russia, or
simply taking them, from Spain and Mexico.
If the locals got in the way, the US Army
obligingly killed or evicted them.

"Exactly 1900" means that the census of
that year declared the "frontier" closed,
by revealing that as many Americans lived
west of the Mississippi River as east of
it. The idea of having to deal with
neighbors instead of fleeing them, then,
is a relatively recent one.

Foreign policy, until the creation of the
UN, had been reactive, from Jefferson's
(unsuccessful) punitive expedition to the
Barbary Coast to support for the Whites
in the Russian Civil War, to meddling in
Latin American affairs on the behalf of
United Fruit Company and Kennecott Copper.

This last reflects the Monroe Doctrine
(foreign powers keep outta our hemisphere)
through our imperialistic era (1898-1960s,
1994-?).

Working against it are the lessons of two
world wars, a failed adventure in Vietnam,
and the difficulty of fighting an enemy
who can hide in countries lukewarm towards
The War Against Terrorism.

For good or bad, Clinton worked a lot with
other world leaders when promoting American
interests (often, just corporate ones)
and trying to fix global problems. He was
smart enough to see how the world works
these days. Bush and his people are products
of the 1960s and 1970s, the close of the
American Century. Traditional hard-nosed
CEOs making tough (on other people)
decisions, all of them. You didn't say
"no" to Sunbeam CEO Chainsaw Al Dunlap,
you said "yes sir" (now there's a tiny
chance you'll be calling him your bitch).
Cowboys of the Wild West at least had
honor. CEOs have none.

Bush's people are always "Hobbesian, unilateralist,
realist and driven by self-interest," but
the American people are only that way some
of the time, and less so as time goes on.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:55 / 05.11.02
well BUSH's people may not be quite that Realistic either...
 
 
Pepsi Max
00:53 / 07.11.02
Tricks> Realist vs. Realistic

Apologies if I am misunderstanding your point but "Realist" specifically refers to a Foreign Policy based on Realpolitik. I'd say by that definition they are mainly realist.
 
 
Stone Mirror
04:27 / 07.11.02
when american wealth is actually enjoyed by more than a few rich guys at the top, then maybe i'll agree that america's a great country.

Is it not already? America has about the highest living standard on Earth, ditto per capiita income. The average American is, in purely material terms, better off than the average person anywhere else.

If you're looking for countries where the wealth is literally enjoyed by "a few rich guys at the top", you're looking for Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China most likely, Uganda...

By the bye, "Hobbesian" in this context simply means "driven by self-interest" (again). Hobbes held that, in the absence of a social contract, people would only do those things which benefited their own interests.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:41 / 07.11.02
But you have a social contract, so surely Haus's post above should apply? Unless you mean America as a nation in terms of its interactions with other nations, in which case you may have more of a point.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:55 / 07.11.02
Gah... OK. I'm not sure that these much-vaunted 'American values' are significantly different from the 'values' of many other countries. I think America's primacy is due more to a combination of (as someone else has pointed out, can't remember who, sorry) tremendous natural resources and the fact that Europe was in a very bad economic state after WWII. In addition, America, like many other developed countries, used protectionism to shelter its developing industries and is now engaged (with the hwlp of the business-dominated WTO, GATS etc), along with Britain, in preventing any other country from protecting their own industries in a similar way - despite the recent steel tariffs episode. Not very free-market capitalist...

Everyone knows about the restrictions on civil liberties following September 11; and the 2000 election highlighted some of the problems with American democracy.

Unilateralism - well, at the moment this is basically playing out as a 'might is right' thing, with America insisting that other countries comply with its wishes, and threatening them when they fail to do so - so America can do what it wants, but no one else can. In addition the US (got to stop saying America - I hope everyone realises I'm talking about the state here, not Americans themselves) relies on the assistance of other countries for its military outreach - I dunno how many American military bases there are over here - mostly on crown land where they can't be affected by the British government - but it's a substantial number.

About the wealth of the US - you may well be right, but I think there's probably a case that the distribution of wealth might be more equal and the standard of living among the poorest people might well be better in some places - Scandinavian countries, perhaps? I'll try and find some stats.
 
 
Stone Mirror
15:23 / 07.11.02
But you have a social contract, so surely Haus's post above should apply?

Hobbes' "social contract" was in large degree about justifying the need for a king; I think the original writer (given the context) must have meant it in terms of self-interest, rather than nastiness, brutisness and lack of duation in time.
 
 
some guy
17:06 / 07.11.02
America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest".

America is a strong and wealthy country because its abundant natural resources (as others have pointed out), its long-term isolation from the turmoil occupying much of the rest of the world throughout its history. It's a matter of geography, and if America was precisely the opposite of the descriptor above, it would still be strong and wealthy.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:11 / 07.11.02
I can't figure out what we're arguing about here.
 
 
Persephone
20:36 / 07.11.02
I'm not understanding what people are saying it means to be "Hobbesian" ...I would say that to mean that one holds the same philosophy as Hobbes, id est ruling by the will of the majority is fucked because the majority are nasty/brutish/short and motivated by self-interest to the detriment of society. Not to mean that this same one is n/b/s, etc. If one is motivated by self-interest and thinks that is a good thing, this is not Hobbesian. And if I'm not mistaken, the founding principles of the U.S. were Lockean --trusting in the majority to not elect themselves a war-mongering fuckhead for a president and all his buddies to back him up. I myself have been Hobbesian as of Tuesday.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:47 / 07.11.02
America is a strong and wealthy country, in large measure because it was conceived on foundations that were "Hobbesian, unilateralist, realist and driven by self-interest". Do we need to apologize for that?

Yes. But not everyone - just the relatively small number of people who hoard the power and wealth, the majority of whom have plenty to reason to apologize for the reckless self-interest and the damage that it has inflicted on the rest of the world, not to mention their own countrymen. I think that more and more, the United States is becoming a nation ruled on every level by thugs, and the good and decent people in the nation are marginalized and powerless. Or worse, totally apathetic.

So yes, all of the things you mention are bad things. Very bad things.
 
 
Pepsi Max
01:10 / 08.11.02
Qalyn> That's because we're all arguing around different things. Because the first post (no offense Stone Mirror) was based on a fundamental misunderstanding and a poor use of terminology.

Persephone> Hobbesian refers to US Foreign Policy. The Hobbesian reference draws on the idea of international relations as an anarchical society and thus may posit the US as a Leviathan (i.e. a multi-national hegemon that guarantees order thru force). Whether or not US Foreign Policy is Hobbesian is another matter.

I doubt people would accept this, but may I again suggest ditching this thread and replacing it with several more focused ones, e.g.:
- Is American foreign policy and action 'good' or 'bad'?
- On what values do you think the American nation is based? Are they 'good' or 'bad'?
- What are the connections and contradictions between traditions (such as capitalism and free speech) in US and its foreign policy abroad?

At the moment, nobody understands what the f*** is going on. Metaphor for the aims of US war on Iraq?
 
  
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