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Relationships between Chaotes and, um, Aeonically-Differing Persons...

 
 
penitentvandal
16:11 / 27.10.02
Okay...I was going to keep my head down here for a while after the embarassing debacle of my attempt to do a Frank Black on the Sniper, but a situation has kind of came up in my personal life and I thought I'd ask you guys for advice (which I probably need, given that I'm such an idiot, etc, etc...excuse the grovelling, it's just I've never had high tolerance for failure, you see...)

So here it is: I'm dating this girl. She's great. She's a star. She's gourgeous and she's kind and she's got the loveliest Belfast accent y'all ever did hear, and she sings like Sheryl Crow, and she wears really cool clothes even when she doesn't wear clothes that are fashionable, and she's one of the best kissers I've met in me life, and so on and so forth et cetera ad nauseam, but...

Well...This is the thing...Y'see...I'm really not sure how I can come out and say this, like, what with us being magi and all...I mean, you have to promise not to chaobolt me when I say this, okay? Honestly. Okay? Right then.

She's a Christian.

*sharp intake of breath, fellow magicians immediately put down pints and move to get up, vv2.0 instinctively assumes a defensive posture and makes ready with the nanoservitor array*

Before everyone starts, she's not at all dogmatic - in fact she's pretty open-minded, really - and she has made solemn vows not to convert me, and has in fact been quite interested in some of my less overtly magickal ideas...Although obviously I haven't yet told her about my magickal activities and stuff.

The point is: do we have a chance, despite our differences, to build a decent relationship together on the grounds that we love each other as who we are? I'd like to think that, but I'm not sure...What do the rest of you think? Is there any real hope for a relationship between a Chaote and a Christian? Or are the differences between the two paradigms an insurmountable obstacle?

Please appreciate that this is quite embarassing for me...I've spent a hefty part of my magickal life engaged in acts of Monotheist-bashing, and now I find myself actually falling for one of the buggers, y'know? I'm in something of a moral and ethical quandary here, and some advice from other magi would be a big help.

(And please don't put curses on me for turning into an enemy of the Pandemon Aeon/Age of Horus/whatever, obviously...I can't be arsed with the hassle.)
 
 
Perfect Tommy
17:09 / 27.10.02
"Nothing is true" includes your Chaote-ic monotheism-bashing, don't it? Heck, maybe this would be a good chance to give monotheistic beliefs a try.

I'm not speaking from actual experience here, though... grain of salt time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:27 / 27.10.02
As far as I, playing largely non-magickal Breakup Girl can determine, this question splits into two questions.

1) Is it acceptable for practitioners of Magick to date Christians?

and

2) Will this particular girl's christianity affect adversely my relationship to here?

As far as 1) goes, I can't shake the suspicion that this question is sort of like "can Christians date Muslims, or atheists". Now, consulting my Bible, if you''' excuse the locution on this, Dr. Joyce Hugget's "Life in a Sex Mad Society", a guide to young Christians on questions of sex and relationships, the answer is probably "no". The risk of the Christian losing their own faith in the face of a worldly concern like interpersonal love (as opposed to love of God) is too great, before you even get onto the dangers of having children who may be raised in a secualr environment and thus denied the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, it is worth noting that this book is written for the ChristianBBS crowd. It's basically preaching (if you'll pardon tum te tum te tum) to the choir. More liberal interpretations might suggest that, like inter-faith discussions, displayed to such good effect in the close and friendly relationship between the Catholic and Protestant bishops of Liverpool, inter-faith relationships can provide a valuabel and enlightening experience for both parties.

So she believes in God and you believe that the order of the world can be changed by the focused applciation of the human will? This may be an issue if either fo you are afraid of being contiminated, or are worried about being separated in Eternity, but in the short term these are two ways to look at the way the events that happen within the world happefn within the world. Many of David Hume's friends, and I suspect some o his lady friends, probably did not believe that causality was unprovable and illusory, and there is no evidence to support the belief that every partner of Guelincx believed that the body and mind were two separate machines running simultaneously, so the connection between thought and action was a mere coincidence rather than the impact of one on the other. Different people have different viewpoints, and if we restricted ourselves entirely to relationships with people who echoed, mirrored and reinforced our own beliefs we would be very dull people for it.

The second question is probably more important. And the answer must presumably be a matter of individual conscience. But if magic is an imprtant part of who you are, and you decide on her behalf that she should not be allowed to encounter it, then it strikes me that you are kind of torpedoing the chance of loving each other for who you are. If it is not such an important part of who you are, then you may be right not to bother with something that will occupy little of your time and attention anyway - as if you did not tell her about a fondness for Herman's Head, which only extended to watching it if it was on and you had no other pressing engagements.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:29 / 27.10.02
Hmm. You may have a point there, Tommy.

My one worry is that in this situation it would be far too easy to 'experiment' with the belief system and wind up identifying it. I don't want to find myself, ten years down the line, getting up to read Galatians 4:14 to the congregation of St Simeon's Methodist Tabernacle and suddenly thinking 'Oh shit! I'm meant to be a magus, aren't I?' And it's 2012 already! Shit! I'm fucked!'

Y'know?

On the other hand, as with anything in chaos, if treated with humour I suppose the situation shouldn't be a problem, right?

Hmmm...
 
 
penitentvandal
18:34 / 27.10.02
Shit. Haus, (hmmm, rather a nice pun there, methinks) my usual overly loquacious desire to reply seems to have rather smashed up your post there. Mea culpa...

(and hopefully once I've posted this I'll be able to see the rest of what you have to say - unless the ol' Gaseous Vertebrate of Astronomical Heft is trying to fuck with ya...)
 
 
penitentvandal
18:46 / 27.10.02
It may also be worth pointing out that the woman in question and I got together as a result of a string of odd synchronicities, some of which stretch back quite far down the timeline. Obviously, from a Xtian (yes, I may be having to be more tolerant, but I can still abbrevi8 if I want 2) p.o.v. that looks like divine intervention; from my own standpoint as a magician, though, it just looks like...

...well, like a string of interesting synchronicities, some of which stretch quite far down the timeline. Of course, as a magician I quite like synchronicities and tend to follow them about whenever possible, so presumably it might be worth continuing with this.

Another point is that I keep bumping into people at the minute who either challenge or have radically rejected my bs (belief system, non-RAW fans). My gig the other week with Aidan Dun being a good example. Dun, formerly an alchemist/poet-magician type, seems to have foregone his magickal tastes in favour of traditional Hindu yoga, and has gone as far as dismissing his former interests as being 'on the verge of Crowleyanity'. I'm about as likely to join him as I am to put a cross around my neck and join the Jesus Army, but I can't help but think that I'm being given a powerful magickal nudge by all this stuff.

Hmmm...
 
 
The Strobe
21:29 / 27.10.02
My one worry is that in this situation it would be far too easy to 'experiment' with the belief system and wind up identifying it.

Is that a problem? Similarly, she might (possibly, depending on how open-minded she is, and how she discovers your ideals) experiment with yours, or see how it fits into her current belief, and she might identify with it. She'd find that a problem; I think you'd be glad from the sound of things. So why doesn't it work the other way around?

You say you're 'meant' to be a magus. Are you? In what sense? Suddenly saying with retrospect "oh, shit, I'm not meant to be this, I'm meant to be something else" doesn't really hold up in my book; I'd say that whatever you believe, you ought to be yourself. Most people are going to take a lot of convincing to believe in anything. You might identify with something a little, but it isn't going to change your standpoint - from the sound of things, you're not going to lose any of your bs no matter what else you add to your bs from hers. You can increase knowledge without losing it, and even if you don't believe what she does, you're going to at least be more aware of another BS.

Do you see? You're eventually going to run into contradictory arguments, but both sides might have something to add to the other. I don't think you should be so frightened of everything changing as a result of actually having to deal with a conflict of interest - as Haus points out, if we only dated people the same as us, many things would be infintiely more sucky.

I'm vaguely religious, and about as sceptical of magick as you can get, but I can acknowledge that they fill pretty much the same gap, so I wouldn't see too much trouble. I mean, in the end, I do have a funny kind of respect who believe in anything strongly enough; it's hard to have faith in anything, never mind what it is. And so she might have a problem with what you believe in, but not the fact that you believe in something. I mean, something is better than nothing, right?

So yeah. Don't let it get in the way. You seem to get on well, and you can put synchronicity down to divine intervention, or curious magickal symbolism, or just the fact you're two people who at the moment probably should go out with each other. All three are pretty much valid arguments - there's equal amounts of proof for all of them. So don't dismiss anything yet, go careful, and love her for what she is rather than what she isn't.

[Yikes. That might well be my first post in the Magick. I do read this place, you know.]
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
22:18 / 27.10.02
I love the term X-tian...very Ezra Pound.2 words VV...might help...

Christian Hermeticism
 
 
Vadrice
22:20 / 27.10.02
A penultimate Chaote (in my head) is all with everything, including nothing.

and something.

If you can come to terms with that, you can come to terms with anything.

Of course, then you might also immediatly melt into chaos itself, but... um...

C'est la vie.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
23:25 / 27.10.02
For starters don't think of Xtians as "the enemy" polarized thinking like this is going to doom any relationship. Don't worry about what chaotes are going to think about you, if you like her go for it.

Some suggestions based on similar experiences, my S.O. is not christian but her mother is...

It is not her you have to worry about as much it is authority figures around her that could be trouble, i.e. parents or clergy. Do not freak out the first time you hear "unevenly yoked". Try not to use christian iconography in a chaotic way. Be honest to her about your beleifs but for starters call it spiritually searching. Explain it with the psychological model most often. Show real interest in her beliefs. Try to look at the spiritual or experiential core of her beliefs and not theology or dogma. Feel free to tell her about your antagonism with christianity including bad experiences.

good luck.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:59 / 28.10.02
"The point is: do we have a chance, despite our differences, to build a decent relationship together on the grounds that we love each other as who we are? I'd like to think that, but I'm not sure...What do the rest of you think? Is there any real hope for a relationship between a Chaote and a Christian? Or are the differences between the two paradigms an insurmountable obstacle?"

If she accepts you as a magician, then there is really only one thing you can do. Love her, kiss her, laugh, cry, live and love her madly.

To find something of yourself in someone else and see it reflected back in their eyes and their smile? That's magick.

Everything else is just details. Divine intervention is synchronicity is divine intervention is coincidence is God working in mysterious ways is all the same. Don't let the popular trap of Chaoite Dogma trip up your chance to love and be loved by another human being.

And hey, if it dosen't bother you too much, you could even take the Jesus-trip out for a spin. What is Christianity other than a popular magickal tradition, anyway?

Live, dance, and enjoy each other's company. She's a great kisser for God's sake; that's some of the most powerful mojo there is.
 
 
Vadrice
03:03 / 28.10.02
Hey, you think maybe now we'll all be saved?

yay!
 
 
Tamayyurt
03:53 / 28.10.02
I say go for it. My girlfriend is a christian and at first I was like "awe fuck!" But I had gotten to like her quite a lot before I knew she was a christian and she had gotten to like me before she discovered I was a heretic. And everything's great.

I mean, why worry about that now? She may end up dumping you cause you're an ass or you may get rid of her cause she doesn't put out (and if she fornicates then, I mean, how sturdy can her beliefs be, huh?)So it might not even come to faith differences. All I'm saying is do it day by day and if it's meant to be (like you're implying with your Synchronicity talk) then it's meant to be. And she can laugh off your unorthodox magickal practices and you can shrug off her church going ways and at the end of a hard day have someone to snuggle up and watch Buffy with.

As long as you don't try to convert each other it'll be fine.
 
 
illmatic
07:07 / 28.10.02
"My one worry is that in this situation it would be far too easy to 'experiment' with the belief system and wind up identifying it."

Isn't that the point? - if you belief shift shouldn't you put your arse on the line? (Perhaps that's why I don't do it).

To echo what everyone says, I say go for it - you might having something to learn from her. Anti-Xtian predjuice is just daft. My normal response in situations like that would be to do a divination. My prefered system is the Wilhelm edition of the I Ching and he was a Lutheran minister. Go figure.
 
 
ciarconn
13:28 / 28.10.02
Gee, give therelation a chance. Let her know you as a person before whe knows your ideological alignment. the persons are more important than the religions.
 
 
ShadowRain
13:43 / 28.10.02
Here's my take on the problem ... this one being from my own experience. My husband is an open-minded Christian, much like your girlfriend. I, on the other hand have a mish-mash of personal beliefs that fit into nothing I know. I don't fall for the dogma of the Christian faith, but my experience with my husband has been wonderful.

He accepts me for who I am, and is genuinely interested in the workings, beliefs etc that I hold and experiment with. I accept him for who he is. He believes in God, I believe in the Source/Creator. He prays, I meditate and focus my intent. Different sides of the same coin.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to not trying to convert the other to what you perceive to be the one true way. Respect, honor and love her for all that she is, and from the sound of it, she will give you the same.

My husband and I have managed to live together and thrive for 4 years without having our beliefs contaminate and ruin the relationship, by becoming dogma and trying to convert the other. In actual fact, we have plenty of heated debates about spirituality and the differences, which only enriches our relationship. We've managed to make it work ... you can do the same if it is something that both of you really believe in. Belief, in whatever form, is a powerful motivation for many things.

As I said - love, respect and honor. Go for it ... you have nothing to lose and a hell of a lot to gain. It is a true blessing to find someone willing to love you for who you are.

Love & light
Shadow
 
 
penitentvandal
14:51 / 28.10.02
*sniff* There is so much love in this room...*choke*

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, peeps. You've made me confident that by following this relationship wherever it leads I've made the right choice, and you've reassured me that I don't have to let all that 'Aeonic' bollox get in the way of my relationships if I don't want to.

Maybe this is exactly what I need. I've never really questioned the 'magic good, religion bad' aspect of chaos magic before, and maybe it's about time I did. In fact, hell with the maybes, it is. As magicians we should be able to move beyond tribalistic 'us & them' thinking. Otherwise we're not the guys who're gonna do the Great Work of Magic and save the whole world, we're just another thing wrong with it. And I can't be bothered with that.

So my girlfriend's a Christian? Are they the enemy? There is no 'enemy'. It's a Moebius striptease, remember? There is no 'us' and 'them', there is only 'us', and when two of us fall in love, then that's more important than immanentizing the eschaton or bringing down the aeon or whatever. It's that simple (it's that complicated).

Haus - magick is important to me. There was a time when it was just a silly thing I played with, but these days it's part of my life, and it's enriched my life a lot. So I'm never gonna give it up, and I'm aware that I'm gonna have to tell her a little more about what exactly it is I do at some stage, but I accept her views and I'm confident she'll accept mine. She's not so dogmatic as to reject love on religious grounds - believe me. Whatever - it's not like 2moro I'm gonna go 'by the way, love, I'm a chaos mage...', y'know?

I can't remember who it was who suggested using the psychological model for the most part, but that's the way I'm gonna play it.

Mr Ill? You're absolutely right. Prejudice is daft no matter who it's directed against, and it's about time I stopped kidding myself that I'm better than all those blind monotheist fools purely by virtue of my being a magician. That's bollox.

ShadowRain? Impulsivelad? Good luck with your respective relationships. It's nice to know I'm not the only guy who's been here.

So, in conclusion : 'is there hope for my blossoming relationship with a Christian?' Hell, yes. And am I 'a fraternising-with-the-enemy-motherfucker who needs to be stomped'? Oh, Hell, no...

Peace, ladies and gentlemen!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:05 / 28.10.02
Of course, it is quite possible to be a chaote and just pick one belief system to work with. Some people have got results by using Christianity as that system. Why not?
 
 
penitentvandal
18:23 / 28.10.02
And after spending soooooo much time worrying about this and then finally calling on you guys for advice and then deciding to embrace peace and love, guess what happens?

That's right: welcome to Dumpsville, population: velvetvandal.

What is the point, people? I mean, do you know the kind of fucked-up stuff I've done to people in the course of my magickal life? Do you realise how many people I've hurt? Yes, I've done good stuff as well...So much lately...Helping with the Transducer, doing my pacifist hypersigil thing, doing sigils to heal people who piss me off instead of just cursing them...I was finally reaching some kind of equilibrium before all this. Okay, I thought, I might not ever have the whole karmic love-trip thing, but at least I was content. At least I wasn't such a bastard anymore. I had friends. I had a purpose. I had some sense of a direction in my life, and that a good one. And then the Universe dangles the whole karmic love thing in front of me anyway, and I go for it, and I decide that maybe this is it, that maybe all that love conquers all stuff is true after all, and I drop my charades and my masks and I let her see the side of me that's vulnerable, and then bang!

It all gets fucked to Hell and now all I want to do is curse the living fuck out of anyone or anything that gets in my way. And a kinder, nicer part of me doesn't want to do that, but right now it doesn't feel strong enough.

Is there any hope? No. There's no hope. Am I an enemy-fraternising motherfucker who deserves to be stomped? No: I'm a complete idiot who lets himself get duped like a neophyte by the oldest fucking illusion in the book, that's what I am. I'm a stupid, stupid, stupid cunt. You should all just sic your attack servitors on me on general principles. I have all the discernment of a blind deafmute retard. I'm an insult to magick and I don't deserve to live.

Fuck. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. FUCK.
 
 
cusm
18:33 / 28.10.02
Naa. You're just a chap dumped by a girl. This hardly makes you unique, nor is your reaction. But judging by the thread above, it seems to have been a learning experience in some unexpected ways for you. Perhaps the slap in the face was as well.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:58 / 28.10.02
*sigh*

You're right of course...I guess the only sensible way (aside from declaring a Chaos Jihad against Everybody In The World) is to just grit my teeth, practise my stiff upper-lip and assume some kind of 'Mr Stevens' mode. You know, I may not be able to be happy, but by fulfilling my responsibilities to others I can at least be content.

It's the only moral approach to take, as well. Keep me from getting even more fucked-up and inflicting myself full-bore on people.

Yes. Mr Stevens it is, then.

*starches collar of immaculately pressed shirt and adjusts cufflinks while inwardly dying inside, goddamit*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:43 / 28.10.02
Yowch. Sorry to hear that. Try not to curse too many people-- you will, eventually, recover from this, but hexing everyone in sight won't help with the process.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:12 / 28.10.02
Oh yeah. I'll recover alright. At first I'll just notice an absence of pain. Then I might start smiling at the odd thing. Y'know, every now and then. Just a wry little smile. Then maybe, one day, I'll laugh - not a dark, cynical, I-laugh-because-the-universe-is-mad laugh, but a genial little chuckle. And then pretty soon I'll be all witty and fun and the life and soul of the party again, and I'll probably start getting back into the old casual sex after years of self-imposed cathar-level asceticism, and then just as I'm starting to think heeeey, y'know, it's all pretty cool, really...

The universe'll dangle another carrot in front of me that turns out to be a twelve-inch, ten pound Black Iron Dildo and I'll be back in Cryingfuckbleedland again.

It's happened before, it'll happen again, as it was in the beginning, yadda yadda yadda. It's my fucking life. It just sucks.

I won't curse anyone here. And I won't curse her. That's all I can promise.
 
 
diz
12:18 / 29.10.02
"That's right: welcome to Dumpsville, population: velvetvandal"

Did she dump you over the magick stuff, or for unrelated reasons?
 
 
penitentvandal
21:17 / 29.10.02
Um. I haven't really been dumped, actually, it turns out.

The girl in question just wants to take things slower...This is her first real relationship with anyone, and it's freaking her out just a little. From what we've discussed today I still think we have a chance, it's just that at the minute she's having to deal with stuff she's never really felt before.

And I may as well admit that, having spent so much of my life dealing with various magickal crises, this is the first real relationship I've been involved in as well. We're both having to adjust to this a hell of a lot, and it hasn't been easy. That's why all this 'opening up' stuff has been hard for me. Having spent years building up this facade of being the untouchable mage, I suddenly learn that actually I can't keep my guard up all the time anymore. And, having spent years building up a similar persona, my beloved's been having the same problems.

I dunno...It's all kinda complicated. We're just gonna chill out and see what happens. Y'know? If we stay together then great, if we don't, no blame..We both appreciate what a wonderful thing we have but we're not really sure how to handle it.

For the record, dizfactor, magick had nothing to do with the perceived 'dumping'. I haven't really revealed my magickal interests to her. But I'm seeing her on Saturday, and if all goes well for me between then and now, I'll tell her then.

As to why I'm worried about what happens between now and saturday - well, that's a story for another time...
 
 
Tamayyurt
22:48 / 29.10.02
This is great, man... it's like are very own Smallville over here on Barbelith!

Keep the drama coming, VV.
 
 
—| x |—
05:42 / 30.10.02
"It all gets fucked to Hell and now all I want to do is curse the living fuck out of anyone or anything that gets in my way. And a kinder, nicer part of me doesn't want to do that, but right now it doesn't feel strong enough."

I was once informed that the magician Powys used to say that we always have only two choices: we can emphasize things that come to us or we can minimize them. Now it isn't for me to tell you which is best to choose, nor is it for me to find the center for you--these are both tasks for you; however, do recognize that it is your choice--perhaps your only choice.

Love is one of the hardest things to live through and in. And/or perhaps, it is difficult to let Love live through and in us. It isn't always pretty, and in fact, it can sometimes reflect your darkest side to you, the deepest shadows of self, but again, it is your choice to emphasize these or not. Keep in mind that Love seems to involve the most paradoxical movements of our "souls." And it appears that in this Love can be at once the brightest illuminator and the greatest deceiver.

I know it can be really difficult to do, but do your best to keep a clear head and like in any other endeavour--magickal or not--avoid the lust for results (which opens up a whole new area of inquiry: lust or love?).

Best of all possible worlds in your current situation.

{}
 
  
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