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Do you support the UK firefighters' strike?

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:47 / 14.11.02

Yup. They all could lay claim to the same amount. Which the country "can't" afford.

But an expensive war against Iraq'd just be small change. Go figure.

23:02 / 14.11.02

WAR vs SERVICEs

What do we actually need?

Do we require investments in wages to benefit the service industry workforce? Pay the firemen, nurses, doctors, police etc a decent wage.

Or go and blow shed loads of cash on a resource conflict, that won't give us any more security, than giving Satan a blowjob? Do you wnat me to swallow Mr Bush?

I wanna witness myself the breaking of strike lines by armed soldiers. Get a perspective on who is in control of this slave state. What if we join the picket lines and the army come? Where will the police align?

By the evident media bias on this strike event, it seems that there is concern about where this might lead.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

06:40 / 15.11.02

Totally. Seems as a nation we'd rather spend money on killing people than saving their lives.

Quite frankly I'm ashamed. I'm gonna pretend to be French or something from now on.

08:13 / 15.11.02

Stoatie: I agree with that public service pay should be way higher but I don't know about that comparsion - not saying it's untrue but I'd like to see some clear stats.

If an attack on Iraq goes ahead, how much of it will be bankrolled by us and how much by the Americans? Can anyone provide any clear/stats or info on the cost of a predicted costs of this war? (wildly off-topic I know, sorry)

pointless and uncalled for

11:17 / 15.11.02

A friend summed up the situation very neatly last night by saying that the nation was caught between two parties willing to put a price on human life.

Maybe that's a little cynical but somehow rather true.

11:22 / 15.11.02

Go back to work or you'll be held responsible for any deaths caused through fires.

Emotional blackmail? Love it.

11:32 / 15.11.02

Also,

Whatever radio station is on in this place at the moment just had some news where the phrase "preventable fatalities" was used.

is exactly the sort of guff I'd expect from the anti-Union lobby. Which radio station? Who made that statement? In what context was it made? Where's the evidence?

I suspect it's only a matter of time before you give us an "enemy within" style quote.

In other news, firefighters have been crossing their own pickets in order to retrieve tools required to help people out of burining buildings, stabbings, etc. Rather unsurprisingly, BBC Online only seem to have the one report about one such incident, despite their TV and radio news services mentioning a number of similar occurences last night.

pointless and uncalled for

11:45 / 15.11.02

I have no idea what the radio station is or who made the statement as I was not paying too much attention to the program. IIRC then the statement was something along the lines of "investigators are indicating that last nights tragedies were preventable fatalities". I couldn't comment on who these investigators are, other than to assume that despite their position they would not have been fire investigators as they are on strike and thus the credibillty of the statements could easily and rightfully be called into question.

When you say enemy within are you refering to within the FBU?

How do you determine that this is guff? Is this based solely on assumption that the person making the statement is part of the Anti-union lobby or is there further criteria that have been filled?

Go back to work or you'll be held responsible for any deaths caused through fires.

Emotional blackmail? Love it.

And the representatives of the FBU haven't been engaging in emotional blackmail? Riiiiiight.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:47 / 15.11.02

Well, give us an example, potus.

I don't think the anti-Union bias of the vast majority of mainstream media in the UK can be in any doubt. It's such a widespread and deeply embedded mentality that it's hard to know where to start - I suppose it might be useful though to consider the history of corporate media themselves vs strikers: News International's move to Wapping etc. We see the end result of this in that 'even' on Barbelith, the idea of the *right* to withdraw labour is seen by many as contestable.

I did laugh out loud though when the ITV 'news' came out with this little gem, worthy of Chris Morris:

"Firefighters usually risk their lives to protect the public. Tonight, however, they will put the public's lives at risk."

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:30 / 15.11.02

I'm not saying we're going to burn old people. I'm saying that old people may burn....

The firefighters are a bit screwed, really. The public goodwill depends on their perception as thoroughly decent blokes. However, to maintain this, they have to keep breaking their own strike to help out at fires. Thus, rather than working for 21K a year, they are working for free.

Conversely, if people start dying, public goodwill is going to abrade fairly quickly, particularly if that deadly terrorist strike does in fact hit London. But if casualty rates remain low, it makes it look as if we can all get on perfectly well without firefighters, thanks, and the strike is thus etiolated.

There's only one solution I can see. The firefighters should continue to break their strike, but only for the salvation of nice people. Local lads, octogenarian veterans, girls next door, all these they strive to preserve while leaving the venal and unpleasant to perish in the blaze. So, Jimmy Stewart yes, Lionel Barrymore no, basically. The resulting local heroism would occur against a backdrop of econoimic crisis as those who held the purse-strings of the country are immolated one by one. How could it go wrong? The governnment, venal and unpleasant pretty much to a man, would have to back down, really. And everyone is happy. Except the government, the other public sector workers, and Jimmy Stewart, who will probably be a bit pissed off at losing his 24-hour coverage.

15:25 / 15.11.02

How do you determine that this is guff?

I though it was pretty obvious from the bit where I mentioned that you'd simply repeated an inflammatory statement which, apparently, you've got no supporting evidence for.

Also, when a string of comments read like they could have been taken directly from a proposed "Sun Says" column, guff sums them up fairly well, no?

"The enemy within" is a reference to Thatcher's (extremely successful) attempt to paint striking miners as traitors to their country.

18:15 / 15.11.02

The public goodwill depends on their perception as thoroughly decent blokes.

Good point, Haus. I had to attend a meeting today opposite a fire station. I was there for two hours and the car horns honking in support were a continual, deafening chorus. There is clearly public goodwill, as this mini-strike of two days' duration draws to a close. I wonder if it will be sustained through the next, threatened, eight day strike? The press will blame every death in a house fire on the fire strike. London's commuters will get more and more pissed off with the disruption to tube travel and its knock on effect on other transport systems. The fact that they are decent blokes and that they, without question, deserve a better wage may not be sufficient to kept the venal British public on their side. It's an easy and novel way to feel vaguely radical and to say "Bog off Blair", honking a car horn. After the novelty wears off there may be much less honking.

I can remember the last, noble fireman's strike. I can also remember the way public service workers all jumped on the bandwagon and that this was followed by nearly two decades of Tory rule.

But then again, we've already got Blair in power, in his dark blue tie. Public service workers, including firemen, have had little luck arguing their case by less confrontational means.

And, I have to say it, the picket line outside that fire station today was the most sexually alluring instance of socialism I could imagine in my fevered, fetishist brain. Wonder if they'd let me volunteer to stoke their brazier?

22:00 / 15.11.02

apparently the government will try to break the strike if the firefighters go back to the picket again.

08:53 / 16.11.02

"I can remember the last, noble fireman's strike. I can also remember the way public service workers all jumped on the bandwagon and that this was followed by nearly two decades of Tory rule."

This is interesting and raises questions about what a 40% payrise could entail. Presumably it would spread to other public service workers and would lead to general wage inflation. That would be paid for by cuts elsewhere or increased taxation. Which could be rejuvenating force the Conservative party requires.

Tryphena Absent

21:52 / 16.11.02

You talk as if anything would be different if the Tory party was in power. This is not a Labour government, there is no support for council workers or any of the unions. The teachers have been plied with paperwork to create super-teachers (more hierachy) and thus raise wages, that wasn't implemented. Benefit cuts have been made and there has been support for constant bombing and threats of violence towards other countries. We are not taking on the Euro, nurses have been brought in from other countries to alleviate the lack of people doing that job over here.

The firefighters have been directly quoted as saying they would have accepted a 16% payrise without conditions and it has not been offered to them. The government has proposed an 11% rise over a number of years (4% the first year, up to 7% the second year and finally 11% in the third) on the condition that the entire service can be changed in that time. The things that they proposed could not be done in that amount of time and so the firefighters would not be paid their money.

Welcome to Tory rule.

Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes

00:23 / 17.11.02

When I think that this strike “depends” on public opinion, and that public opinion appears to be so selfish, especially in London where tube cancellations affected opinion polls. I feel that the “public” don’t deserve the highly trained fire service we have.
But I think that the media distorts public opinion. I live next to a fire station and not a minute went by without car horns sounding.
The Express newspaper came out with a figure that there are 40 applicants for every job, thus fire fighters should be happy with what they have. This is bullshit, as are ideas from the government that the army can provide the same service as fire fighters.
What could emerge from this scenario is that we would get fire fighters leaving the job after a few years when they realise what poor pay they were on, and we would be left with fire fighters with little experience. It would also add to public expenditure to train new fire fighters.
From my knowledge neither the Bain committee nor the politicians know the first thing about fire fighting, it also doesn’t help when politicians award themselves a 39% pay increase.
John Prescott invokes so much anger from me that I would like to be one of the people to either: punch him, throw eggs at him or pour a bucket of water over his head. I now realise why he is so vilified.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

20:11 / 17.11.02

I seem to remember a report on the news that was saying that donations to the Labour party were beginning to dry up and so they were having to turn to the Unions to bankroll them once more, which would mean they can't spit at them as they have done since coming to power.

Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes

23:37 / 17.11.02

There is a strong case to argue that this strike represents a power struggle between the Labour party and the unions. When once the Labour was the party of the workers and of their unions (this is highly idealistic, sorry), now with “New Labour”, they are intent on becoming the dominant partner in this relationship.
Nick Cohen wrote a very good article in the Observer this Sunday about the meritocratic ideology of modern UK politics. Journalists can justify their over inflated salaries and still criticise fire fighters wanting to increase their pay by a fraction of what they, the journalists, earn.
The journalist/media celebrity/politician/lawyer/financier/web designer/ceo really does deserve a 50-100k plus salary because of their unique talents. Anybody can do the job of a public sector worker or any other low paid profession, so therefore we don’t have a right to a decent wage. If we were talented enough we could all earn a huge salary.
It astonishes me that in this country we have believed this crap for so long, from top to bottom. In a way I hope this strike does escalate, I’m only sorry that the fire fighters may have to take the brunt of it. But I know if there is a general strike of union members then I’ll be there. I will be consulting my union about a walkout if the fire fighters don’t get a fair raise and if they do? I am definitely supporting other workers who want a decent wage.
Fuck the media, fuck new labour and fuck the corporate oligarchy, it’s time we took what is ours.

Nick Cohen article: www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,841727,00.html

11:45 / 20.11.02

Can anybody point me to a web site (or hard copy source) giving figures for:
(i) Present pay for the firemen (meaning total cost of firemens' pay across UK);
(ii) How much each side's proposals would cost in addition to that (again, total across UK);
(iii) How much it would cost for an equivalent increase in public sector pay generally - or even just for health sector workers and the police;
(v) What effect that would have on the public finances (either in terms of PSBR or tax rates or percentage of privy purse);
(vi) Estimated costs of invading Iraq.

Without any figures it looks to me like arguing about what is morally acceptable is a bit difficult, save for in very abstract terms which cannot be applied with any certainty to either side's case.

On that basis I suspect that a lot of people posting on this thread must have a lot more information on these topics than I do, so assistance would be gratefully received.

13:01 / 20.11.02

Had an interesting conversation related to this last night. talking with a French friend about the system in France. There 90% of firefighters are volunteers, much like the lifeboat service here. Not relevant at all to the strike but interesting to see the different ideas of good fire provision.

17:46 / 28.01.03

I've just seen John Prescott announcing that he is to impose modernisation and pay rises on the firefighters' service. I'm not sure what reaction this will get from the FBU - Andy Gilchrist was on the news just now and looked as if the stuffing had been knocked out of him. Apparently the TUC have rather squeaked a response so far.

I'm gutted. It seems to me the final, ultimate betrayal by a Labour government to engage in this kind of union bashing. This is breaking news, so I'm sure there will be more details in the morning, but where do the firefighters go from here?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:08 / 28.01.03

Probably not round to Prescott's house, were it on fire.

Yeah, just heard this on R4 news before coming to work- isn't he reactivating old legislation or something of the sort?
Bastard.

Brigade du jour

23:38 / 28.01.03

Prescott would just pour stout on it if his house caught fire. Or piss. Which he also probably drinks. Fat filthbag.

00:49 / 29.01.03

Wait, our firefighters are on strike right now? You're kidding! Really? They are?

05:29 / 29.01.03

It seems to me the final, ultimate betrayal by a Labour government to engage in this kind of union bashing.

So what will be the role of trade unions versus that of the market on deciding pay levels? For instance, if public funds are going to be spend on pay increases should it go to the fire service who have no problem attracting recruits or to Maths teachers who it seems are very hard to get and keep.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:57 / 29.01.03

I get your point there, Buk, but there are a few elements here (not that I'm saying teachers don't also deserve a fuck of a lot more than they get right now either).

There's the risk of life (and, flippant comment ahoy, if my house is on fire someone explaining trigonometry to me really isn't gonna go down well).

There's the career progression- a bloody good knowledge of mathematics could well make for a good professional mathematician (oversimplification, I know, but still...)

There's also the fact that I'd rather my money went on firefighters, teachers, doctors, fucking librarians rather than some dumb-ass foreign venture. (Irrelevant to this thread that may seem, but if I have to choose between firefighters or teachers, I'd say give 'em half each and forget about bombing people.)

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:48 / 29.01.03

Oy Stoatie- I'll have you know I'm a celibate librarian thankewvermuch.

Not surprised the TUC haven't complained, aren't they all run by Labour party cronies anyway, but Labour are playing very dangerously, according to Private Eye they have a massive overdraft and with the Bernie Ecclestones of the world no longer paying them need the support of the Unions to survive. After this, I can't see why any union would want to give them money if this is how one of their own gets treated.

12:38 / 04.02.03

Somebody might have already made this point, and it's a small one, but has anyone noticed that when only one in every 30 applicants gets into Oxford or the SAS, that's because they're "elite", but when only one in 30 become firemen, that's because they're ten-a-penny dole fodder?

Just a thought.

NDD

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