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"Aspects of Tantra" by Phil Hine

 
 
illmatic
10:30 / 23.10.02
New e-book by Phil Hine, on the subject of Tantra, available here

http://www.occultebooks.com/essays/phil/aott.pdf

Anyone interested in discussing the any of the ideas raised?
 
 
Sebastian
11:37 / 23.10.02
Interesting, just downloaded it. I am not a Hine fan, and I remember I found his Oven-Ready chaos somewhat loose, but this one looks really juicy, well, I mean, informatively.

So, from what I read in the opening paragraphs, I hope my overtly simplistic impression about tantra (have tons of sex without Os, eat, drink, go back to the deed, visualize mandala or god, repeat mantra, & don't forget to massage your prosthate) will be enriched.
 
 
cusm
20:21 / 24.10.02
I'm about half way through it, and I found something interesting. He describes the practice of the Tantric cult in India as one which acted as a rebellion to the strict rules of society, where one would act in ways highly taboo in order to seperate one's self from society to cultivate a form of enlightened detachment from the limits normally placed upon one's self. He compares the practice to Satanism in the west as a mirror of the Christian moral majority.

I find this interesting for two things. First, that it is the same philosophy spouted by chaos magickians, that one should revel in the excess of taboo in order to break free from personal boundaries and reach enlightenment etc. This might be largely due to Hein being a CM author himself, but it is still an interesting connection. Secondly, if these acts were taboo in India, they are hardly taboo here. Eating meat, drinking wine, and fucking are hardly shocking. He suggests that abstence of the same might be more appropriate an act in the west to accomplish the same task. That's a turn about I did not expect to see, but that I think does make a fair bit of sense. It all dpends on what your goals are.
 
 
Papess
20:29 / 24.10.02
Just for a little thread-ease...

Here is the link to "Aspects of Tantra" by: Phil Hine

Thank you for the find Mr. Illmatic. I will definately get around to reading it and join the discussion. It seems iteresting judging by Cusm's post.
 
 
illmatic
12:48 / 25.10.02
Seb/Cusm: One of the things I got from my reading around the subject (and is reinforced in this book) is that although a lot of discussion around Tantra in the West treats it as one thing (usually sexual) when it's actually (as might be expected from any subject with a cuple of millenia behind it) hundreds, if not thousands, of different strands, sects and philosphies.

These range from the extremely antinomian (sadhus living in graveyards, rejecting all caste and convention) through to the extremely orthodox - ie. there are many Tantrics whose practice and beliefs reinforces the value of mainstream Hinduism (and are very anti-sex). This is not a new phenomona, but is of particular interest at the moment, as India seems to be going through a period of what might be called "Hindu Fundamentalism" with a very orthodox Hindu party in power, the conflicts with Islamic Pakistan etc. I wonder how well Tantra less orthodox elements will fare in modern India? Acknowledging these living issues and potential complexity seems to me a much better approach to Tantra than approaching it as a magickal "rub and tug" session which is how it's often how it's talked about in the West.

I particularly liked the essay on "The Guru". Seems to challenge al ot of assumptions that go with the "guru role" without throwing out the best of person to person learning and contact.
 
 
cusm
18:36 / 25.10.02
Ok, finished reading it. I'll have to admidt, the approach given shows its roots in the CM views of its author. The focus is on the liberating ideas in tantra paths, detachment etc. I'll admidt, I've found that a lot of eastern philosophies are quite similar to CM in this way, so I'll give him some slack there.

He doesn't give a lot of info on the aspects that are known for sex magick, uniting the immanent and transcendent as the male and female, but that is not suprising as these are the most well known and even adopted into many systems, including Thelema in parts (Hadit and Nuit, living as making love to the universe with every action, etc). The other details were quite interesting, so its a good read.

It also reminds me of how damn cool Indian mythology is. The diversity of spiritual paths lends to some amazingly freakish practices, yet all are justified as paths to enlightenment. If that isn't a lesson in Chaos I don't know what is.
 
 
Papess
16:23 / 11.11.02
I finally got the chance to sit down and read this.

The comparison between Satanism and Tantra was quite amusing, since tantric practices utilizes demon(esse)s and wrathful imagery to depict the destruction of maras and kleshas. It would seem that Tantra is the estranged parent of modern day Satanism. Hehehe!

I loved the bit about "Goddesses & Sluts", of course. The convenient notion that male magicians are better off to practice with a naive, inexperienced female is perposterous. Although this method is still effective, it does not address his overcoming his ego, at least not in western culture, where not even the act of transgression would be viable. If anything, it may even act as a boon to ego and self-cherishing. Practicing sex magick with the uninitiated is just simply monofocal sex magick. Effective enough, I have practiced it myself and had to laugh when I saw Hine's refute:

"One presumes the converse - that female magicians could "use" males who were ignorant of the Great Work as assistants did not even occur to the advocates of this approach.

What an oversight! Of course however, nice girls don't want to practice sex magick, right? *rolls eyes*

The only reason I have practiced with ignorant male partners is due to a lack of qualified partners. (Save for Rex, whom I am sure, was charging sigils behind my back!...heh) I would think that having a partner who is trained in the disciplines of tantra could only be beneficial. Practicing alone always reminds me of two Aikido masters trying to start a fight with each other. Even though this is inaccurate, it brings up the flipside realization that partnership is not necessary, if we are talking about Tantra rather than Tao or Sex Magick.

Acquiring siddhi through Tantric discipline does not really rely on a physical partnership because transcendance relies on devotional practices and surrendering of the ego. Contact is not necessary. Tantra, ultimately, forgoes the once important and immanent physiological aspects of practice for transcendant, recognizing the emptiness of itself. I do not get the same sense of Sex Magick and Taoism. They seem to be inherantly rooted in acquiring power/chi/energy, never rising to surpass the immanent.

Am I wrong here?

Loved the essays, Mr.Illmatic! *kisses*
 
 
bpm77
18:59 / 11.11.02
Haven't read the article yet, and I'll reply here when I do so. However, I do want to point out (as others have begun to) that Tantra is an enormous topic, hardly encompassed by 'sex magic' or taboo breaking. As Mr Illmatic points out, tantrics can range in social practices as much as the gnostics did- some try to break all conventions, some follow them to extremes, and most lie between. Tantra was developed in part due to the realization that the current age is very different from those described in the Vedas- people are less pure, more selfish (we are in the kali yuga [http://pages.zoom.co.uk/thuban/html/kaliyuga.html], so the shit is hitting the fan nice and thick according to Hindu cosmology). Thus, early tantrics argued that the old methods of obtaining unity with the divine were no longer useful. New methods were needed, methods that were in line with the current era. Hence the taboo breaking, etc. By and large, you wouldn't know a tantric Hindu from an 'orthodox' Hindu unless you were well versed in the theology of the religion. For example, the Dalai Lama is heavly influenced by Tantra (and he ain't even Hindu).

That said, there are many so called magickal aspects to tantra practice, notably the mudras, mantras, yantras, etc. For an excellent introduction to that, check out Tantra Unveiled by Tigunait (the library may well have it- mine did). I'll go and read the article rather than contine ranting now...
 
 
Badbh Catha
02:48 / 12.11.02
Very interesting reading.

I did want to comment on two paragraphs in particular which struck me:

Westerners tend to associate Indian spiritual practices with the wandering yogis or itinerant sadhus, but the so-called path of the householder – of the individual who seeks spiritual development whilst holding down a job or keeping a family – is widely acknowledged as the most difficult path to tread. – pg 6

I can relate to this statement. So many people look at Magick as escapism, a means to separate oneself from ("transcending" is a term often used) the world. In the privacy of their own bedrooms, within their magick circles, they can play the Grand Magus or the Sacred Priestess...but they can't pay their bills. They can't deal with other people. They can't control their addictions and habits. They can't function in the real world – and Magick is fundamentally about interacting with, and thriving in, the real world. Hine does bring up often, throughout the essays, that Tantra has the same goal.

The idea that ascetic practices (in moderation) have value seems to be difficult for some Western magicians to accept. Western culture is overly attached to instant gratification and obsessed with being ‘sexually’ successful...Being sexually active is closely related to self-esteem in our culture...particularly in the magical subculture, where there is a common belief that ‘successful magick’ equates with a high sex-drive. Our sexuality is felt to be one of the most private areas of our lives, yet it is highly influenced by ‘external’ conditions. In this kind of atmosphere, ‘not having sex’ can become as much of an act of magick as any ritualized copulation, and probably more productive in the long run if one is simply responding to ‘surface’ gratifications, rather than actually examining one’s underlying complex of motivations and kleshas. Moreover, ascetic practices are useful for sensitizing the bodymind to subtle nuances of experience and sensation that would otherwise pass unnoticed. – pg 14

Many, if not most, forms of Western Magick tend to wax obsessive about sex (and straight sex at that, but that's another issue). This is partly an overcompensating, knee-jerk reaction towards living in a society where any sort of sex is considered "sinful" or "bad". But I suspect another reason is that working Magick raises a great deal of energy, more than most people are used to, and the closest other human experience that raises that sort of energy tends to be sex. So the two become correlated, and it becomes habitual to associate Magick and sex together...lazy thinking.

Therefore, it makes sense that refraining from sexual activity, and studying alternative means of working with the energy flowing through the body, would perhaps be more useful in "examining one’s underlying complex of motivations and kleshas".
 
 
illmatic
07:28 / 21.11.02
From the author:

very good feedback. As to cusm's point

>Ok, finished reading it. I'll have to admidt, the approach given shows its roots in the CM views >of its author. The focus is on the liberating ideas in tantra paths, detachment etc. I'll admidt, I've >found that a lot of eastern philosophies are quite similar to CM in this way, so I'll give him some >slack there.

personally I'd say it's rather my CM stuff shows its roots in my tantric views - but this is a real chicken-egg thing for me as I became interested in CM/Tantra at roughly the same time - whilst a member of a Wiccan coven.

Glad you liked the pice on gurus danny, I've been thinking of revisiting this aspect of tantra - particularly in terms of looking at tantra from the pov of focusing on relationships.
 
  
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