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Panhandlers

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13:15 / 18.10.02

Sorry, TBP - been thinking a bit more about that off line- what I should've asked is - don't you think some of the disdain you exhibited for homeless people earlier on in this thread serves as a way of distancing yourself from any guilt or embarassment you feel about seeing them?

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:31 / 18.10.02

I'm trying to remember a bunch of posts that made me more angry than potus' posts above, and... I really can't. There are no words. Just red mist.

The Natural Way

13:31 / 18.10.02

Those of us who enjoy all the comfort and privilege of a job and a bit of cash and a roof over our heads have difficulty enough sorting ourselves out, let alone some poor bastard sleeping rough in central London.

Potus: I think Haus would respect yr "differing opiion" more if he felt you'd payed any attention to the opposing argument, or had made any attempt whatsoever to empathise w/ OTHER HUMAN BEINGS and their respective situations (and remember, special boy, thats a plural).

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:46 / 18.10.02

I (and this will probably open me up to a whole world of shit) have given, and will continue to give, money (when I can afford it) to people IRRESPECTIVE of whether I even KNOW they're gonna spend it on smack or Spesh or whatever.

I offer no moral opinion on this, I just do it.

Tryphena Absent

16:11 / 18.10.02

Potus, every year around christmas time charities like Shelter run nights where people raise money by getting random housed human beings to sleep on the streets. It's frightening and I think you should do it because you need the experience. I'm not criticising your views, I disagree with them, if that's what you think go ahead but I think you should discover just how awful it is to be out in the cold in a doorway just for one night. You're not safe, you're passed by strangers with god knows what attitude in their heads, it's terrifying even surrounded by people doing the same thing.

Some homeless people do smack. If I was on the streets I'd be on something and so I will fund their drug habits if that's what they want me to give them money for. I'd rather no one was pumping heroin in to their bodies but it's going to happen... they might very well use the money for food, they might not be addicts and I wouldn't want to deny these people something that could better their lives.

16:35 / 18.10.02

My main argument is with the youngish panhandlers who seem to only show up on weekends/fridays. I also agree about not giving to anyone who has nicer shoes/clothes than I do.

Oh, and before you start getting all judgemental on me for being "inconvenienced" (your words, not mine), I was homeless at one time. I never panhandled, not once. I worked. I shoveled driveways and sidewalks. I cleaned yards and windows. I collected bottles and cans. I worked for shady temp. day laborer companies.

Sometimes I crashed with friends, sometimes I camped out. Eventually I got into a decent shelter, got a more permanent job, and worked my ass off for a few months until I could afford first, last and security. That's what you do if you're homeless and want to survive. Keep the PC shit to yourself, thank-you.

Most genuine homeless (at least the ones I've met) won't panhandle, they have too much pride. Its true about the suburban types who do it for a lark, not always the case but its becoming much more common. Kids panhandling for gas money, that kind of thing. And it pissed off the homeless because they often catch the blame. I have no resepect for anyone who won't work for a living who is perfectly able to. I mean, if you're healthy, you're young, you should have a job. Period.

Oh, and I do give to buskers. I don't consider them to be panhandlers, since they're actually doing something.

And if someone is panhandling in awful weather when all the other panhandlers have mysteriously vanished (guess they didn't need the money that badly?), I'll give something, buy them a cup of coffee at least. I'm not a heartless bastard. I know what its like. But I have no tolerance for lazy, annoying slack-asses who don't get enough allowance to cover the gas money, the cover charge, and the E or the booze and won't get a job.

Oh the humanity.

16:45 / 18.10.02

simply answering the topic abstract, as my brain is too muddled to answer to all the points made prior to my arrival:

I think you have to do what you feels right. speaking only for myself, I dont give to panhandlers. I feel its insulting to press a few pennies into a needy persons hand, a desperately futile and fairly empty gesture which amounts to little more than an attempt to allay myself of guilt or worry over this persons situation, over which I am helpless. I cannot afford to give the kind of money that would make even a small difference. I think that the best way to make charitable efforts is to donate time, money, useful items, or skills to a place that actually makes a difference.

my preferred charity is a family crisis center, which actually houses and cares for women and children from abusive situations and protects them from further abuse. they stay there and receive counseling if needed, and the center finds them jobs and new homes, as well as providing them with new belongings, as often they are forced to leave their things behind. some people would feel their community is better served politically, or with different kinds of efforts – I dont think its for anyone to judge which way you approach things

Ive been homeless before (thankfully, not for long, and had friends to stay with for a good bit of the time). Ive also had a place to stay, but no money, and nothing to eat. I never asked for money, cause Im a proud dumbass and would have happily starved first. but a few days sleeping out in the cold with absolutely nothing can change your perspective about a hell of a lot of things. Ive come across people who really did eat with what they were given, or shared the money with others for a place to stay. on the other hand, at the time I was friends with kids who panhandled just cause they could, and watched people begging only to use what they made on their favored addiction. either way, you cant really judge each individual in the few seconds it takes you to pass them by, whether in the end you choose to give or not.

Murray Hamhandler

16:49 / 18.10.02

"I hope we can all agree that the worst thing about the rise in the number of homeless and/or beggars is the inconveniance and distress visited on honest, decent, *hard-working* people like...Deric..." -Flyboy

What are you even talking about? Did you even read my post? I never said anything about feeling distressed or inconvenienced by beggars or the homeless (not by any means the same thing, by the way). I just don't give to beggars anymore, as delinneated in my above post. It has nothing to do w/moral judgement or my belief that they're some kind of pestilence on the earth or something. And as far as the homeless are concerned, I was homeless myself for about five months. No home, no job. I never panhandled once. I was resourceful. It can be done. If you want to panhandle, though, more power to you. Do what you've gotta do. But I'm by no means rich, so don't expect me to shell out what little money I have to live on. I'd split my meal 50/50 w/a panhandler or give him/her the shirt off my back before I'd give them money. That's my position and I stick by it. Don't make me out to be some inhuman monster because of it.

Murray Hamhandler

16:51 / 18.10.02

Seeing nutella's simultaneous post, mine was apparently unnecessary. Ditto on almost all points.

21:18 / 18.10.02

I think what has made me less likely to give money is not so much that I think that panhandlers "don't deserve" the money, or that they "chose to live that way." I think it has more to do with seeing, as I get older, how many people I've met who have survived horrible situations, and even gone on to thrive. Nutella makes some good points in his/her last post.

I guess the REAL bummer about our world (and it's pretty much the whole world, but let's talk about the USA) is that there really isn't a "drop-out" option. Every piece of land is owned, or government-managed. You can't hunt your own food for the most part. You definitely couldn't set up a farm on BLM land or anything. Basically, you either buy into the rat race, or you starve on the street. Maybe, especially as we automate more and more jobs, we should start to think about the cost of a more humane "dole"-type system for artists, etc, which could provide a small subsistence living to those people who don't want to take part, or whose skills have been made irrelevent.

At Burning Man a few years ago, I met some "desert people" (a scraggly family of three - Dad, kid, and naked grandpa), who had snuck into Burning Man. They were telling me that they lived in the Nevada desert for years, "hunting and trapping" their own food. I guess that's an option, but that is a HARSH existence.

Getting off-topic here. Anyway. I always give food, but rarely money. Maybe living on the Upper Haight did it to me...

21:45 / 18.10.02

Yes, beggars can be a pain in the arse. Specially the women with kids. Mind you, once you've been to a few parts of the Third World, you toughen up. I give when I'm in a good mood, I have noticed. When I'm stressed, tired, fed up after a hard day, I'm much less likely to. Must take energy to feel compassion.

As Maominstoat said earlier, I have no opinion about what they should do with the money. It's unlikely they're putting it in a High Interest Account somewhere and if I were living on the streets, I would probably blitz my brain every way possible to alleviate the inevitable feelings of hopelessness, fear and the approaching winter cold.

There, but for the Grace of God etc. Doesn't matter how far above the breadline I am today, it doesn't take a huge act of imagination to see myself hitting upon a few too many life crises in a short space of time and beginning on a slope that I'd be well advanced down before I realised it had all gone too far for me to clamber my way back up.

I've known a few people at times in their lives when they were doing well who had either been or later would be on Skid Row. The significant thing for me was that I never would have known they had lived on the streets in the past nor would have been able to predict that one day they would. In other words, there was nothing different about them that gave me a reassuring sense that it could never happen to me.

Customary urban myth type tale to relate too though. Just before I left Edinburgh, I gave a few bob to a guy near a cash machine. Only as I walked away did I realise he was talking into a mobile phone and had had to interrupt his chat to sat Thanks Pal. Hope my friends still phone me up when I'm living in a cardboard box, ha!

pointless and uncalled for

10:29 / 19.10.02

I've spent a couple of nights on park benches in winter (in a locked out with no friends state of affairs). I've even been locked out of my house during January in Toronto. I know how hard that is. Do these people who do this little exercise then look forward to more of the same.

What would I do if I were to find myself on the streets. The answer would be to sort myself out. This is yet another personal flaw as I hate relying on other people. I imagine that my process would be to seek shelter as quick as possible. Then would come food, I certainly wouldn't be looking to waste my money on a few beers to chill out with. I never turn to alchohol as a form of relaxation. I know that there are programs to get people off of the streets and back into "productive society" and even if that fails there is also the opportunity to seek out the local roustabout corner for money.

I think that my own evidently crap personality prevents me from being inactive. Right now I'm unemployed and hating every moment of it. I love working and the thought of sitting on the streets horrifies me because it would mean doing nothing all day. The popular dream of lying on a hot beach doing nothing, never had it.

Ok, you've convinced me, I'm a cruel, stupid bastard who should stop holding people up to his own pathetic standards and as soon as I can reconcile myself to giving money to people that may not lead to rehabilitation but to self-destruction. Until then I'll keep giving it to the charities.

Questions for you - If I have three shiny pound coins that I can afford to give to people begging on the streets, which ones should get it? How can I treat everyone equally? If I give it to three and then am asked by another, should I feel bad that I am not helping them also?

With so many scenarios and situations what is the best method to determine who gets and who doesn't? What is your method?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:38 / 19.10.02

Potus: I think Haus would respect yr "differing opiion" more if he felt you'd payed any attention to the opposing argument, or had made any attempt whatsoever to empathise w/ OTHER HUMAN BEINGS and their respective situations (and remember, special boy, thats a plural).

Or had done anything other than repeat almost verbatim opinions that had already been expressed.

Although you gain points for "I've lived on the streets! Well, I've locked myself out of my house...". That's possibly the sweetest thing I have ever heard.

Meanwhile...Nutella - could you explain, in terms of the history of the PC movement, what exactly the PC attitudes on display are, when historically they became a part of the PC movement, and how they factor into the PC movement? I see a new threat to our children...

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:53 / 19.10.02

But what sort of cards would it sell?

"The days have gone, oh granny mine,
of memory arousing.
You've lost your keys again; it's time
to move to sheltered housing."

No offence, but if you don't have the life skills to negotiate getting into your own home, I suspect you might struggle to last long without one.

However, I am with you on one thing; PC apologist for the homeless as I may be, I do envy them the incredible quantities of leisure time they have when they can just laze around, untroubled by the cares of the world. Bastards.

Goodness Gracious Meme

13:44 / 19.10.02

Fair point.

And you just know that they've got a fortune stuffed into those cardboard boxes.

The Natural Way

14:03 / 19.10.02

I can't help feeling that giving ocassionally is anything but a healthy thing to do.

Nutella, maybe other people are DIFFERENT - maybe they're not as strong or determined as you. What happens if yr WEAK? And, If you think raising the spectre of PC will get you anywhere on Barbelith, think again. You can't tell me the people I see begging on the fringes of Covent Garden every day aren't "real" panhandlers/beggars. What is all this "real" shit, anyway?

22:20 / 19.10.02

I make no bones about the arbitrariness - even fickleness - of my decisions and behaviour towards "panhandlers". Spending time in India - where the black hole of demand is essentially inexhaustible - was instrumental in ridding me of the guilty-liberal feeling that I must somehow be 'even-handed' or logical with regard to beggars. I can't be: there're too many needy people, and my own (and, I suspect, other people's) Benevolence Drive just doesn't work that way.

I remember reading somewhere that the Romans were big on heightening one's emotions. When they felt happy, they'd purchase caged birds and set them free, so they'd feel even more joyful. This tends to characterise my approach to beggars; the better my mood, the more likely I am to be extravagant. After I'd finally sorted out the agreement on our current flat, I handed a fiver to a girl begging in Vauxhall station and waltzed home. It was almost entirely for [i]me[/i], y'see, the warm, fuzzy glow of benevolence prolonging the Good Vibe.

That's what it's about. We don't give money to make the other person feel good. It's for us - which doesn't, needless to say, make it a Bad Thing...

The Natural Way

13:35 / 20.10.02

Well, it's for us as much as anything we do is for us. It's interesting that, w/ regards to this subject, someone always feels the need to make that point.

18:04 / 20.10.02

What does everyone think about the "giving to charity but not giving on the street" idea as championed a while ago by Tony Blair?

19:11 / 20.10.02

There's certainly a case to be made for it, but I can't quite rid myself of the idea that if Tony Blair is saying it there must be something wrong with the idea. Kneejerk cynicism, yeah, but I can't help thinking that he'd rather we give to charity so that the government doesn't have to provide essential services.

I doubt that most people who regularly give to beggars are thinking "well, that's my bit for society done, I don't have to do any more" anyway. It would be interesting to see a chart of street giving vs. donations to organised charities.

21:39 / 20.10.02

My problem with charities is in a lot of cases you don't know where the money's going to. With people on the street, I know the $2 I give them isnt going towards the overhead of having that nice office downtown.... but yes, I know there are some good charities that operate very efficently and whatnot.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:18 / 21.10.02

I'm finding it impossible to give to charities now- my credit rating sucks and they don't take cash anymore. (As I believe I may have mentioned a while back). Until the day beggars start requiring credit card details, they're welcome to my cash when I can afford it.

I think fridge makes a good point about the government abdicating its responsibility- if they were doing their job properly we wouldn't NEED charities for the homeless, so it's a bit rich Tony asking us to give to them. Not that I have anything against charities, you understand- I just think it's in pretty poor taste when the Prime Minister's saying it.

Gotta go- a friend just turned up. Will try and argue this in more detail later.

12:51 / 22.10.02

"Ok, you've convinced me, I'm a cruel, stupid bastard who should stop holding people up to his own pathetic standards."

Tea Boy Potus - I don't think you're either cruel or stupid but the problem I'm having here is with your apparent complete lack of empathy. The Thatcher years were a little before my time, but I do recall from older relatives how terribly insecure jobs suddenly became, a situation that exists to this day in the UK. As others have said, anyone could have their job/home/partnership/life break down at more or less any time, through no 'fault' of their own. I have crossed the road to avoid beggars (the term 'panhandling' sounds horribly romantic) - they sometimes do make me feel guilty and I can't always deal with not being able to give people money - and it's something about myself that I don't like. But there's more to being homeless than just not making an effort - if only it were that simple! And many times I've heard people say they'd actually rather be on the streets than in a hostel, because some hostels are even more dangerous. It's an awful, awful situation to be in - I would have thought that was fairly obvious - and if I can afford to give someone some money I certainly don't do it conditionally and wouldn't blame them for spending it on alcohol. No, it won't help that person out of their situation, but perhaps the bigger picture is difficult to see when you have to get through a freezing cold night in a shop doorway.

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