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A different scenario

 
 
tango88
13:50 / 15.10.02
A while back in another thread, someone answered one of my comments by saying violence against civilians can never be justified. Also I was thinking about the moral twist from the movie Swordfish. So I was wondering...

Situation A: A kid is bullied at a school playground. Should he tell the teacher or should he grab a baseball bat and whack the bully?


Situation B:

1 Group A is fed up with America's global agenda, anti-Islamic stance, manipulation of the Israeli-Arab conflict etc.

2 They complain to the teacher but nothing happens. They decide to use the baseball bat.

3 They fly two planes into a skyscraper in NY killing 3000 people.

4 They hijack media satellites and broadcast their agenda over the world, complete with emotional pictures of dying Iraqi children

5 In this alternate reality, the liberal world press ask "why?". They come to the conclusion that the act was caused by the hegemony of the US government

6 The American public demands that the government step down. Eventually, it is forced out of power by street protests.

7 It is an election year. A new government is elected on a platform of positive engagement with the Middle East, no more sanctions, bullying countries, hijacking the global agenda etc. A government which will discourage political complacency among the middle classes. Indirectly, hundreds of thousands of lives are saved.

I may have jumped a few steps and I know it is all a little far-fetched but following it through to the end I would say yes, step number 2 was justified.

just a thought.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:03 / 16.10.02
I think your mixing of metaphors is a bit misleading, they are not 'whacking the bully' (though that is what they may like to believe) they are beating to death a large number of people that have no relation to the bully except to be in the same geographical area.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:47 / 16.10.02
Yeah, to extend the metaphor they're actually kicking the shit out of all the bully's classmates... quite a lot of whom have not even thought about the subject, and some of whom are actually opposed to the bully's behaviour, but too scared to say anything.

And I think your logic's flawed... step 2) may be justified... indeed probably is. I don't think step 3)'s a baseball bat to the bully, however... more a turning up at school with automatic weapons and blowing the fuck out of everyone kind of scenario.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:45 / 16.10.02
Do we really think warlords need justification? It's a might-makes-right situation. When a megalomaniac convinces millions of ignorant youths to sacrifice their lives and the lives of complete strangers for an obscure, fantasmagoric ideal and lives to dictate public opinion about it... isn't that just statecraft?

There are a few flaws in your sequence, Tango:

Situation B.2, America is the teacher. But maybe this's hairsplitting.

B.4. Saudis who kamikazi'd the WTC & Pentagon, not Iraqis.

B.5. Huh?

B.6. Street protests don't have that effect. You'd need a mob willing to storm the White House and lynch PotUS et all from the Washington Monument.

The thing to remember is that the guy who uses a baseball bat, let alone a rifle, to deal with bullies is a HUGE LOSER and will end up in deep shit.
 
 
tango88
22:32 / 16.10.02
I realise it was the Saudis, not the iraqis but I wanted to look at it in a wider context.

Basically, i don't want to get caught up in step 1, step 2 etc. but I just wanted to look at an 'ends justifies the means' situation and see if the basic incident could be a good thing.

Also, fundamentalists believe that in a democratic country, people elect the government (unlike in an ideal Islamic state) and can ultimately be held accountable for the gov.'s actions.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:24 / 17.10.02
Okay, point taken, but I'm saying that means don't need justification. Ideology is bunk.
 
 
tango88
05:19 / 18.10.02
I'm afraid I have to disagree on both points. First, the 9-11 hijackers definitely felt that they had justification. Second, ideaology is better than complacency or apathy. Just an opinion, but a strong one.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:52 / 18.10.02
The 9-11 hijackers were brainwashed. The guys who run the operation are not idealists.

Ideology is better than complacency or apathy

Those aren't your only options.
 
 
tango88
06:56 / 19.10.02
I'm going to have to disagree with you again, Qalyn.

Many Fundamentalist Islamic suicide bombers are highly educated and very much into the theoretical side. Also, the psychological training is given after the person has already volunteered for a suicide mission. They know what they are getting themselves into, unlike, say, a person who joins the Scientologists and is brainwashed.

Can you expand on your other options. I live under a 'pragmatic' government (in Malaysia) which means it does whatever the hell it likes.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:56 / 21.10.02
I'm going to have to disagree with you again, Qalyn.

I don't mind, Tango.

Many Fundamentalist Islamic suicide bombers are highly educated and very much into the theoretical side. Also, the psychological training is given after the person has already volunteered for a suicide mission. They know what they are getting themselves into.

I'm sure there are as many stories as there are suicide bombers. Everyone's life is different. What I'm going to describe is how you'd go about convincing someone to kill themselves and lots of strangers for no good reason.

First, you find someone, usually a young someone, who is very insecure. They could be from an affluent background, believing they are defined by their money or whatever, or they could have a horribly chaotic personal history -- orphaned, starved, molested, etc. Remove every familiar circumstance from their environment. Take away their friends, their clothes, their hair, even their name. Put them under stress, fatigue, hunger, and tell them repeatedly that they are worthless, stupid, weak, shameful. Give them an unpleasable authority figure, a symbol of the perfection they will never attain.

Then start to let them succeed. Give them tasks that are not necessarily easy, but certainly doable, given enough practice. As they begin to adjust and succeed more and more, tell them that it is only through devotion to authority that they have succeeded -- it was authority that lent them the strength to change. In order to keep this new sense of worth, they must do whatever that authority requires of them.

These tasks could be physical or they could be intellectual. I modeled the above description on US Marines boot camp, where they have these silly obstacle courses, but in Cambodia in the 1970's they had political dialectic classes. The "theoretical side" you mentioned is part of the brainwashing. Ideology is a complex task that most people can master with a little work, but it has little or no effect on action. It's authority that decides action, and it acts in its own interest.

I don't pretend to know anything about al Quaeda's (or whoever's) recruiting and training methods, but I imagine it's a combination of both (especially since it was the CIA that taught them how to do this). The point is, you've torn down the person's sense of self and convinced them that they only way they can succeed at anything is through obedience to authority. It needn't be as extreme as the above. It doesn't necessarily happen at some camp in the wilderness. Catholics spend so much time convincing their children that they are sinful and disgusting in the eyes of a loving (but vengeful) God, and Catholics have been so willing to burn innocent strangers alive at the Pope's behest, because this indoctrination is at the heart of Catholic thought.

Once you've indoctrinated your subject, you find a task that suits him. If you want to attack "the West", and your subject is smart and charming, you might send him to school in the US. If not, you might send him to the PLO. Or, if you ARE "the West", you might put him in uniform and send him out to kill people. I want to stress that I'm describing a fairly generic process, not maligning any particular group. Personally, I think they're all malignable.

Can you expand on your other options. I live under a 'pragmatic' government (in Malaysia) which means it does whatever the hell it likes.

Well, I don't know much about Malaysia, it's true. Your pragmatic options are: become a policy maker, so that your decisions directly affect the course of political action (note that policy-makers get to use the indoctrination process described above on other people -- you needn't be an elected official, you just need to be in a position to make decisions for other people); become an opinion-shaper of some sort, maybe a film-maker or professor, so that you can slowly change the way people think; or make peace with the fact that human beings are warmakers by nature but you only have your own life to lead and you must do what makes you feel complete -- not what pleases some abstract figure of authority, unless it's an authority you invent and acknowledge of your own volition. But taking a baseball bat to people you don't like is childish, vicious, and evil, no matter what the circumstances. It speaks of a horrid lack of imagination or decency. Ganging up in the streets to throw a big tantrum only works in the most extreme circumstances, and even then not very well. Civil disobedience will only work when the populace is fully committed to it, ie things are so bad they are willing to suffer the punishment such disobedience brings on.

Have I been clear? I'm banging this out as quickly I can, because I have to move on to other things, but I hope I've made a little sense.
 
  
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