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What about Heroin?

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02:56 / 14.10.02

Is it good? Whats the average cost? Downside? Upside?

gravity's rainbow

07:50 / 14.10.02

what are you - a fucking idiot?
don't touch the stuff. I've never touched it myself and that's absolutely because of what I've seen the damn stuff do to people.
Don't believe the WS Burroughs, Trainspotting, New York glamour, and never ever trust a junkie.
keep far away from the stuff and far away from anyone who uses the stuff - that's my advice in all absolute seriousness.

oh, and it's cheap as chips down here in NZ, talking like NZ$20 a pop - don't know what it costs otherwhere

yawn - thing's buddy

08:04 / 14.10.02

good question jack. good question.

time for a serious debate I reckon. Surely Barbelith can tackle this one without knee jerk reactions?

not that I've got much to say on the topic.

Users: share with us what you know.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:14 / 14.10.02

Heroin's a tool of oppression. It's a tax on the poor. It makes you compliant. The usual myths circulate about users - that a junkie in withdrawal can be shot and shot and shot and keep coming, and so on.

It's a mug's game all round.

08:33 / 14.10.02

It's a drug, like any other; approximately as potent, in terms of addictiveness, as nicotine - but with potentially greater legal, financial and social consequences.

I've talked to plenty of users from this side of the doctor-patient set-up, but have never tried it myself (and, knowing that I'd probably love it far too much, have no great urge to do so). I'd be interested to hear an opinion from any Barbeloid who's actually used it.

Tryphena Absent

09:24 / 14.10.02

Yuk, no thanks, bad drug. Wipes your head out, stops you talking, I don't like that vacant smack look because it is terribly disconcerting thinking that maybe someone who isn't blind can't actually see you.

09:32 / 14.10.02

I remember reading somewhere that if addicts are given a cheap, stable and clean source of the drug then the long term effects need not be all that bad. Haven't there been trials of that nature in the UK?

The Natural Way

09:32 / 14.10.02

Best friend since I was 5 addicted now for nigh on 10 years; a whole bunch of intelligent, charismatic and ultimately stupid mates from secondary school also still hooked; good friend's Mum has been a junkie since his infancy: no fun getting home from school to find Mater crashed on the sofa and a single, solitary pea rolling about in the fridge.

No, bad stuff.... I'd prefer to stay away - it all just depresses me.

pointless and uncalled for

09:59 / 14.10.02

Never taken it but seen the bad side of it up close and personal, therefore not really tempted. Not much for needles either.

But before you subscribe to the "One hit = autocrackhouse scenario stereotype" bear in mind that there are functional users in this world. Admittedly they are in a minority but I have met a few.

They work as hard as the rest of us and then instead of a jaunt to the pub to neck a few pints during the week or inhaling anti-depressants before watching English soaps all night, they shoot up. To their credit they will at least admit to addiction, while we lie and deny from 20 to retirement.

A few things you should ask yourself before investigative use of an addictive narcotic.

Can you be objective about the results before further action?

Do you have an addictive personality?

What are you willing to lose to try this on a worst case scenario basis?

The Return Of Rothkoid

11:12 / 14.10.02

I was reading somewhere - no, links at work, sorry - about some research that indicated that smoking heroin (chasing the dragon) was "healthier" than shooting up, because more impurities are filtered out than when you inject. It also posited that the non-injection routes were what was helping the numbers of people increasingly trying smack.

Me, I'm scared of it. unreasonably so? Maybe. But I really wouldn't want to try it at all - it's on my "uh-uh" list.

Lurid: I recall that purity idea from somewhere, too. I think one of the rich bastards in Stark espouses the view, though knowing Ben Elton, I'm sure it was ripped the fuck off.

11:20 / 14.10.02

The 'purity' stuff arises from Dutch trials, I think; I'd have to check. Anecdotally, I remember an interview with a doctor high up in the NHS who procured himself good-quality opiates and habitually injected, with a sterile syringe, under his watch-strap. He maintained that, once the obvious difficulty supplying pure stuff was minimised, heroin was relatively 'safe'. Not surprisingly, he was also a big proponent of the 'damage limitation' viewpoint ie. prescribed heroin and clean needles, as opposed to methadone substitution.

It's not just Zammo, y'know.

12:20 / 14.10.02

Smoking it is going to be a lot less heavy because your ingesting a much more dilute solution, therefore less chance of ODing.

One of my mates put it best: "it fils a hole that wasn't even there in the first place", totally kills any empathy and communication, puts you flat out "on the nod" - quite a dangerous space to be in if you have any problems that need dealing with. It's certainly not that orgiastic experience that it's potrayed as in Trainspotting (I'm thinking of the line "that's better than any cock in the world" - maybe it is, if yr. a junkie, I dunno.

As far as I'm aware any sustained use cuts off your sexuality at root. I think our sexual drive and all it's related bits and bobs - y'know messy stuff like emotions - is a big part of Who We Are. Anything that stoppers this - stay away.

ps: I read recently, we are due to start trials of "shooting galleries" here (UK) next year - safe spaces where junkies can administer clean heroin with medical supervision - brace yourself for the Daily Mail headlines!!

12:32 / 14.10.02

Well, even if it's proved that there are perfectly safe ways of taking heroin your whole life, it still won't mean it becomes legal, which is where most of the problems for users come in. It's an economic thing as well as an image thing.

I would say being addicted to anything with such severe withdrawal symptoms was in itself a serious negative health effect. There's no guarantee that you are going to have your pure, regular supply, with clean needles etc. Lose your job? World poppy plague?

yawn - thing's buddy

12:57 / 14.10.02

Anyone read Cain’s Book?

Sabout an intellectual junkie: it’s pretty much straight biography – clever chap, pure heroin, fairly secure support network – in the end tho, it destroyed him (destroyed, I tell ye, Destroyed!).

Sa fine book. Painful but fine. Not as painful as his other classic, Thongs, but Thongs makes the Filth look like Peter Rabbit. (actually I hate people who say things like, ‘This makes such and such look like such and such; don’t you? Wankers.)

Oh, he survives, lives on for a while, but his handsome, craggy looks, end up mushed, like his brain. He was a real talent at one point, do the research – come back happy.

And he was from Glasgow. Isn’t that funny. Heroin I feel, is a drug for romantics: maybe that’s obvious to you already.

Nother point: if you pop out to M+S for your sandwich hit at lunch, you may bump into duo-junkies: male/female teams who work together to score. I like that. It’s cute.

Alexander Trocchi’s the name you want.

But remember: just do it!

Oohh, have I got my slogans trixed up?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:36 / 14.10.02

%But what about those that are less middle-class than us? Builders, or blacks for example?%

/threadrot

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:44 / 14.10.02

Only ever chased it a couple of times, personally... I don't like needles.

Wasn't too impressed, really- did opium once, and you could tell the difference. That's not something I'm gonna do again in a hurry, though.

Dunno... just didn't like it much... always been more of an uppers kind of guy.

(That and finding a smackhead flatmate of mine OD'd with spew coming out of his nose... and having to talk to his parents when they came to meet us all as we waited outside his intensive care ward...)

Doesn't really strike me as a good drug. Still, each to their own, eh?

(btw- he's okay now, but has- by necessity- cut off all contact with any of his friends in London. I saw him recently at a wedding- he was on top form. But I'm not selfish enough to try to see him again. Smack sucks for social reasons as much as if not more than for health ones.)

I know people who're fine doing it every now and then... having said that, I could say the same about beer, and I know some alcoholics VERY well.

.

14:03 / 14.10.02

I had a friend who liked to think of himself as something of a rebel, who tried heroin when he was going through his drug experimentation phase. His comment was:

"On heroin you can watch your parents be murdered in front of you and not want to lift a finger"

That pretty much put me off ever wanting to try it.

But there is a serious issue here. Coke is demonised by people who don't do it, as is ecstasy, as is weed. And yet, for those who have experienced any of these drugs (most people here I suspect), it seems quite absurd. So ultimately what makes us so sure that one drug is "bad" while others are "good"? Are we drug users hypocritical to condemn heroin?

yawn - thing's buddy

14:12 / 14.10.02

"On heroin you can watch your parents be murdered in front of you and not want to lift a finger"

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

14:16 / 14.10.02

So ultimately what makes us so sure that one drug is "bad" while others are "good"?

I suspect that the majority of drinkers, weed smokers, and pill takers that people here have met have not fucked up their lives by doing so. Some have, but most haven't. We draw conclusions from that. How many junkies and crackheads have you met who have had happy and fulfilling lives despite that? The proportion is "considerably" less. We draw conclusions from that, too. This is no place for mindless rejection of the orthodoxy. You don't have to agree with all the bullshit to think that it is not a good idea to take heroin, ffs.

14:19 / 14.10.02

I don't think I could imagine a realistic situation where I would come into contact with heroin. It is just completely outside my world. I wonder if that is good, bad or just a thing.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

15:10 / 14.10.02

The effect is somewhat dependant on how you take it. No matter what, it'll put you down-you won't be able to do much of anything, including defend yourself.

Snorting it puts you in a hazy kind of dream, but it's like a dream of heaven, if that even makes sense. Smoking it produces a much clearer high than snorting, but still puts you down. I've never tried injecting it. And I've only come into contact with brown and white heroin, so that's really all I can talk about.

It's pretty cheap here in detroit, and you don't need much to get going. Twenty bucks will buy a sack that would keep me occupied for a couple days (although many users could go through it in a night).

I've never thought of heroin as glamorous. It's hard to feel glamorous when you've done a few lines and discover that you can't get up off the floor unless it's to do more lines. Really, the only form of heroin I plan to do again is opium.

"On heroin you can watch your parents be murdered in front of you and not want to lift a finger"

That's a pretty good description of one of the effects, but I like the "it fills a hole that was never there" comment. When you're on it, you think to yourself (or at least I did) "this is how everyone wants to feel when they say 'I want to be happy'". But when you come down you realize that it wasn't really happiness at all but an incredible simulation too good to be real.

I doubt I'll ever do it again (except for opium). It's feels too fake to me.

16:03 / 14.10.02

I have tried herion once. JUst one measely instance and....no, I am not a heroin addict today.

Well, after I had a reeeally good heave, it made me feel as if I crawled back into the Cosmic Womb, primordial existence - or something. When I came down, I wanted more of it, more than anything and I was terribly bitchy. I didn't like the thought of anything else controlling my will, so I focused on that to get over it.

Really, I wouldn't recommend it unless you think you can remain in control, which for myself, beyond taking only one hit would have meant dependancy.

Was fun while I was high, then the generally accepted "normal reality" came creeping back. It doesn't look as glamourous when you are vacant and jonsing.

17:56 / 14.10.02

You're an idiot if you think using heroin is anything but a tremendously bad idea.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

18:00 / 14.10.02

Wow! What an incredibly well-reasoned response not at all smacking of personal opinion with absolutely no personal experience to back it up!

18:13 / 14.10.02

Pretty much everyone in this thread has put forth their personal opinions on the subject. I simply made mine short and to the point.

No personal experience with heroin? What are you talking about? Have I ever done heroin? No. Does that mean that I've never hung out with people who have? Never talked to former addicts? Never read books on the subject? No. I'm confident in my knowledge of heroin and realize that not ever having done it does not negate one's opinion. I fail to see how the advantages of heroin outweigh the disadvantages. Or even come close to doing so. So I repeat: You're an idiot if you think using (as opposed to trying) heroin is anything but a bad idea.

Goodness Gracious Meme

19:52 / 14.10.02

"Heroin I feel, is a drug for romantics: maybe that’s obvious to you already."

Yawn, why do you say this? not hassling, curious where you'e coming from on this one...

Well, yep. tried it once, about 10 years ago now, and one thing I want to raise here that's come up in the cocaine thread, is the distinct status of heroin (and crack) as being on the extreme of the drug continuum. This tends to it being a fringe drug, by which I mean a drug is associated with all sorts of existences/patterns on the fringes of society... not sure if that's clear, but what's more dangerous/going to lead nice relatively comfortably-situated people like us off to the scary edges - scoring an eighth of weed, or getting hold of heroin? I tend to buy my gear from mates (have helped put a couple through uni, or round the world!), to get hold of heroin I"d be looking at a whole different league of dealer...

I'd suggest that the 'extreme' status/image of heroin also works in conjunction with the effects of the drug. the 'womb' thing rings bells for me as well, or possibly there's an effect of everything being exactly *right*, perfectly in its place in the world, with you anaesthetised from any unpleasantness, feeling so *safe*.

So, if you're unlikley to take heroin 'for a laugh' you're likely to be in a pretty strange headstate and I would say, to be incredibly vulnerable. It was given to my by a lover who was addicted and had steadfastly refused to give me any and warned me off it....I was definitely pretty indifferent to whether I lived or died at the point where I made him give me some, safely and with clean works, in lieu of going out onto the streets to get some.

And therein lies one of the major dangers. If most people are already heading towards rock bottom when they take it, the feeling of safety and containment is *amazing*, and really seductive. That's my experience.

Woke up the next day fucking terrified of what I'd done, and never touched it again.

Oh, and having worked with heroin addicts/methodone programme participants, and nkowing one or two current and ex-junkies, I'm still scared shitless of it. It's an incredbily powerful and controlling thing and I wouldn't bet on many people being able to control it, certainly don't see any reason why I'd be one of those rare people.

20:56 / 14.10.02

Has anyone, and I'm talking specifically in Scotland here, seen those HEBS (Health Education Board of Scotland) ads?

"Aye, you're only shmokin' it."

Reckon I'd smoke it, like.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

23:23 / 14.10.02

So I repeat: You're an idiot if you think using (as opposed to trying)

Ah. So basically you're saying being a junkie is a bad idea? Whew! I need to write that one down.

Pretty much everyone in this thread has put forth their personal opinions on the subject. I simply made mine short and to the point.

...and without any explanation.

Does that mean that I've never hung out with people who have? Never talked to former addicts? Never read books on the subject? No.

So you don't have any personal experience with the drug, then.

00:03 / 15.10.02

"Ah. So basically you're saying being a junkie is a bad idea? Whew! I need to write that one down."

One of the points that has been made in this thread and in the cocaine thread is that despite what the Reagan administration told us not everyone becomes a junkie. However, the danger of becoming one still exists when you use it casually and I consider this to be one of heroin's downsides.

"Pretty much everyone in this thread has put forth their personal opinions on the subject. I simply made mine short and to the point.

...and without any explanation."

Point taken. In my defense I also believe that sexually abusing a chicken is a bad idea. I feel no need to explain why this is a bad idea as it should be obvious. I feel the same way when it comes to using heroin. It should be obvious that using heroin is a bad idea.

"So you don't have any personal experience with the drug, then."

If you mean that I've never tried it then yes, you are correct. However, I do have personal experience with the results of heroin usage. It's enough.

The Natural Way

10:14 / 15.10.02

Yeah, I agree: I don't need to have tried H top feel uncomfortable about it, but I object to the idea that all users are stupid. There are a lot of users and a lot of reasons (not least of which depression and vunerability, as Plums points out above) and I think yr kinda coming of as a bit of a judgemental twart, really.

15:50 / 15.10.02

I don't know what the price is, given that I have not paid for it when I've used it. I smoked rather than injected it, and thought it was lovely. It felt as though my blood were thicker, warmer, somehow glowing. I had sex for several hours with my ex and her new girlfriend and felt quite calm and happy the entire time. We did this again on another occasion and is was also nice, but not quite as nice as the first time, I think because I knew what to expect. I have not used it since because the opportunity has not come about. Or rather, a pleasant opportunity has not come about. The junkies I have known did not strike me as fun drug partners.

I think it is important to distinguish between habits and addiction (I have a habit of smoking marijuana on Saturday mornings and then cleaning my apartment. I don't consider it an addiction because sometimes I am not in the mood to smoke it, and when I don't, it doesn't bother me.) Also between physical addiction and psychological addiction. If I were depressed or in physical pain, I would be psychologically and physically more vulnerable to addiction.

I suppose the guiding principle is that drugs are for people who are in a phase of their lives where they are relatively secure and at peace?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:21 / 15.10.02

In my defense I also believe that sexually abusing a chicken is a bad idea. I feel no need to explain why this is a bad idea as it should be obvious.

But it's not obvious. It may be obvious why you feel it's a bad idea, but that doesn't make it a Bad Idea (tm). It's not my thing, and it's not a lot of people's thing, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. The only nasty reprocussion that I can think of that applies to everyone is that it's illegal. And probably painful for the chicken.

If you mean that I've never tried it then yes, you are correct. However, I do have personal experience with the results of heroin usage.

And what are the "results of heroin usage"? Could you tell me from your own personal experience? No. Just about personal experiences of other people with whom you've had personal experience.

20:25 / 15.10.02

I suppose the guiding principle is that drugs are for people who are in a phase of their lives where they are relatively secure and at peace?

That may be, and may be the safest and best time to do them, but its more often when we are in the inverse state of mind that drugs become most appealing.

20:40 / 15.10.02

Yeah, what Cusm said. All of my drug experimentation came when I had literally nothing to lose. It was like, well I could kill myself any day now. Might as well try a few things before I do.

Now, that got more good things going on in my life (girl, home, such), I'd be pretty much dead against trying anything I haven't already done, and I might even be hesitant to revisit any past vices.

21:14 / 15.10.02

"Yeah, I agree: I don't need to have tried H top feel uncomfortable about it, but I object to the idea that all users are stupid."

I never said all users are stupid- I said you're an idiot if you think it's a good idea. I myself hit the bottle a bit too hard and I don't deny that this is not a good thing. If you're going to use heroin at least have the guts to admit that what you're doing is dangerous and yes, probably a bad idea.

"I think yr kinda coming of as a bit of a judgemental twart, really."

I feel like I fit in!

"And what are the "results of heroin usage"? Could you tell me from your own personal experience? No. Just about personal experiences of other people with whom you've had personal experience."

To repeat myself- these experiences plus reading about heroin gives anyone enough knowledge on the subject.

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