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Shadow Archetypes

 
 
cusm
18:22 / 09.10.02
Since it came up in the Gilliganomicon thread, I've been tossing about the use of The Whore as one of the Female Archetypes in replacement of one of the standard Maiden, Mother and Crone set, and have realized something.

The Whore is actually a 4th archetype to the set entirely. Only, she's a shadow archetype of the others. The Whore is the shadow archetype of the female archetype. But as the female archetype is commonly divided into 3 major aspects, so too should her shadow be divided:

Maiden->Slut: purity and innocence to defilement and carnality. That which was sought but unobtained reverts to that which is used wantonly by all.

Mother->Witch: nurturing and protection to abuse and control. The selfless giver instead uses the mature femnine energy for her own ends, to ensnare and control others. As the slut is used, the witch becomes the user.

Crone->Hag: wisdom and guidance to materialism and manipulation. She who was enlightened by her aged wisdom instead focuses on attachment to the material, and becomes the shallow socialite, the manipulative grandmother who controlls her family for her own ends, who clings to her last vestiges of wealth and uses those beneath her to secure her position.

I thought this an interesting exercise to share. It also indicates to me that all archetypes have a shadow twin, and it ma be interesting discusion to play with this idea. One can not truely understand something until he knows also its opposite.
 
 
Papess
19:11 / 09.10.02
Wow!

I think I like this but I really have to ponder it a bit more to comprehend it's implications.

Interesting though.

MT
 
 
at the scarwash
20:38 / 09.10.02
Father-->Deadbeat: You're his, but he could care less. Doesn't pay child support, shows up drunk on your birthday and borrows money from you, hits on your girlfriend.

Magus-->Charlatan: Sells you snake oil, promises he knows the way. Uses you for sex, brainwashes you. Gives you cyanide Kool Aide.
 
 
ciarconn
22:45 / 09.10.02
In the old Vertigo series, Books of magic, the author (whose name I do not remember) presents the duality between mother/whore, when she heals one of the protagonists by having sex with him and giving him her breasts to drink
 
 
grant
02:56 / 10.10.02
What's the difference between a crone, witch and hag again?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
03:48 / 10.10.02
Okay, now wouldn't you say that the bad things about the Heirophant\Magus\Empress\Tripple Goddess are already there, implicit in his design? By which I mean, are not some of the bigger Archtypes (I'm thinking mainly tarot here and other things) whole in and of themselves? They contain both their shadow and their normal meanings?
 
 
cusm
15:35 / 10.10.02
What's the difference between a crone, witch and hag again?

Note: I made up the shadow terms as I saw them to fit, and this is all a bit off the cuff, so take them as you will.

Mother/Witch is the active mature phase, where the archetype performs as nature intends, or is at the height of her power to use these energies for her own will.

Crone/Hag is the inactive retirement phase, where guidance is given rather than actions taken, or in the case of the Hag, the emphasis is on clinging to the material rather than benefiting from wisdom, or again using the position of elder to manipulate rather than guide.

Many interpretations of the Tarot do include the shadow archetypes as the inversion of the cards. So that is one place this is evident. I brought up the tripple goddes because of mention of the Whore as a replacement for any one of them, leading to specific definitions of each case where this is applied. I think the same can apply to other archetypes that do not normally illustrate their shadows. Chackras, for example. Or personalty archetypes not covered in the tarot. It may be interesting to apply this to gods as well, or perhaps astrological signs and the like.
 
 
cusm
15:37 / 10.10.02
Actually, on second thought, the Whore as Crone may be the gossip monger. Rather than sharing wisdom, she spreads lies. I think that's more appropriate to the archetypes in question.
 
 
illmatic
15:56 / 10.10.02
On the subject of Tarot archetypes, an interesting reveral/expansion can be found here:
http://www.anandazone.nu/shadowtarot/

I know this links been posted before but it's pertinent so ..

One of the interesting things I find about the normal female archetypes is that they are very desexualised, certainly in terms of sex as a positive in itself outside of procreation. Perhaps this is why the Crowley's Babalon archetype (the "Lust" card in the Thoth deck) is so interesting. Female sexuality in itself as joy and power.

Any women want to comment on this?
Not that Crowley was any kind of proto-feminist..

" Tear down the lying spectre of the centuries. Let Mary chaste and inviolate be broke upon the wheel..

Sorry I've gone off the point but I'll have to think on the archetypes you've raised and contribute later...
 
 
Ticker
16:51 / 08.11.06
I recently ran smack dab into the rubber band effect of these archetypes, sometimes when you move to far in one direction you can get snapped back into the opposite.
I've been doing a great deal of work on the rigid disciplined side of the fence and in the process neglected some of the seething underbelly of my shadow.

Normally when people resonate with your shadow you are repulsed or made uncomfortable with them. I have this reaction to liars and those who put selfish needs above others, and especially manipulative abusive people who use sexuality as a game piece.

Sometimes I think the Shadow of the Priestess is the Procuress, she who uses her insight to cripple, enslave, indulge and foster corruption. The spiritual power of mystery becomes the drama and intrigue of a social material level. She is a whore but uses other people to gain something without giving up anything. This is in stark contrast to say the sacred ho who gives freely so in my mind it isn't about the sexual exchange but the intent behind it. She leads the self into self delusion not into self knowledge.
It is about power and self importance, passion divorced from love.

For sometime I've been working with other aspects of my shadow but only while I've been really pursuing the path of Priestess have my struggles with the Procuress gotten really pronounced. One deals with the shadow not by denying it, nor by letting it consume you. The goal is to find balance between the extremes and understanding the lure of each.

I've recently realized I'm attracted to the Procuress and her realm and often attracted to people and situations were this role opens up to me. I have very strong ethical issues with it and repress it which is what gives it the power to well up and influence my actions. The more I reject it in pursuit of the Priestess alone the more my shadow is able to stir up trouble. My ideal is a balance between the two niether too restrictive nor too indulgent. Well, either is fine as long as I'm prepared for that snap in polarities.
 
 
Mario
17:05 / 08.11.06
It seems to me that the examples you use for the shadow archetypes feel a bit too subjective. One person's "wise grandmother" could be another's "interfering old bat".

(I read a lot of Miss Marple books )

And the Trickster, thanks to his internal duality, might be his own shadow...
 
 
EmberLeo
17:20 / 08.11.06
First of all, I will toss in that I wouldn't maintain Maiden/Mother/Crone if it's inapplicable to modern life. Now that we have birth control, there's an extended period between first mensus and actually becoming a mother. That's the period when one reaches the maturity level to be having sex and shaping their life, and making choices (or not), but not yet a mother - hardly still the maiden, though. For most folks I know, it's also a period between losing virginity and getting married.

That, perhaps, would be the Whore, which I think makes a certain amount of sense, though I more often hear it called Warrior, or Queen. (I might say Queen is married w/o kids, add child to the beginning, and say there's more like 6 Female Phase Archetypes).

It does make sense, though, if the Whore represents an archetype of feminine power that scares the shit out of some people. It's said that men are/were uncomfortable with a woman in control of her own sexuality because adolescent males often feel they have so little control over their own, and moreover, that women are who have that control. To not degrade a woman who actually knows what she's about leaves an open threat.

The phase of life that is emerging now with birth control (which conservative extremists seem desperate to eliminate) is a period of time in a woman's life where she is no longer under her parents' wing, and not yet married, or bound to a child. She is free, and she may establish a career, may take lovers as she chooses, etc.

A Whore, by their standards.

I think what bothers me here so far is that I consider the Whore a shadow not because there is actually something wrong with being a whore, but because people think there is something wrong with being a whore. The other archetypes you're suggesting, if they stop being negative, stop being a shadow. But there is a deep magic to what makes a whore a whore that isn't directly tied to anything per se negative. A whore can stop being negative and still be a whore. So either those other archetype shadows are what a shadow should be, and the Whore is something greater, or those archetype shadows aren't enough.

I don't see a lot of magic or power to be had in the idea of an old, retired woman who is merely manipulating her descendants in a desperate attempt to cling to material life before death takes her, you know?

I don't see a lot of power or mispercieved positive in a deadbeat dad.

So I wonder at the particular approach here.

But I think the idea itself has a lot of potential.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
17:50 / 08.11.06
I dunno if the Whore is only in relation to the heronormative paradigm either.
I'm uncomfortable with framing anyone's sexuality in biological function these days and I suspect it isn't only hetero males who have empowered the shaping of what the Whore is.

There's the Archetype and then what happens when it is pulled down or projected onto.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:26 / 08.11.06
At what point does impermanence enter into the archetype/personification, or is it as i suspect always in a state of transition, ie a communication or embodyment is a temporal experience. The reinforcement of it as an eternal precept occurs through constant interaction and communication, ritual, focused awareness etc.

Does it for example follow a concieved pattern, cyclic, or perhaps as we have moved futher fron cyclic patterns it has become just as secular in its pick and choose mentality, attachments made to the conditions we set to invoke it, temporal interactions that serve the archetype/personification just as much as they serve those whom employ wear them.
 
 
Mario
21:06 / 08.11.06
I'd say it's not so much about transitions as distinct phases. Transition points, however vague, have a lot of ritual importance.

Maiden might be from birth to womanhood. The transition pint could be puberty, marriage or first offspring, depending on the culture.

Matron could hence be from that point to (I'm guessing) menopause, or at least an age where childbearing is culturally unexpected.

Crone would then proceed from that point to death (and, perhaps, beyond, in cultures where ancestors are worshipped).

Or, I could be completely wrong.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:58 / 08.11.06
I am not sure there are distinct phases at all, there may be the appearence of distinction created through labelling perception, but wether they are really that distinct or not i tend to fall more in favour of the latter, binding things to a phase tends to miss all the conditions that go into creating a given perception of reality. If the phase is inclusive of all the temporal phenomena that go into creating that phase and all relationships and communication thats taking place plus interaction with the inumerable archtypes and reflections there of, that are involved in forming a singular opinion in relation to an archetype, then perhaps.

Really how is it possible to neatly divide a persons life in to distinct archtypical phases? I am beginning to question the whole notion. The conditions that come together to create a self perception, let alone a perception about another are far too numerable and complex.

Its beginning to seem to me a convinient form of self identification so that perhaps i wouldnt have to consider too much about what it actually means to be myself.

Upon reading this i was struck by what seemed an inherently sexist notion as well, placed in a binary style logic that considers people as constructs rather than human beings with a wide range of behaviours and sense of self, rather than say a fairy tale like sense of self.

Not that theres anything wrong with being fairy tale like, but i dont fancy spending a few nights of every week breaking into peoples houses and repairing there shoes while they sleep.
 
 
EmberLeo
05:39 / 09.11.06
Really how is it possible to neatly divide a persons life in to distinct archtypical phases?

Erm, I have to say the whole start of mensus thing, and the beginning of physical intimacy are both things that for me clearly define phases of my life. Once I crossed that line I was just plain different.

But I don't expect that level of self-percieved difference in others. For me it's certainly part cultural, but a lot of it is undeniable on a plainly physical level, and I rather anticipate pregnancy and childbirth, and ultimately menopause will be the same way - how can one deny the extremely overt physical changes involved? The change from virgin to physical intimacy is the least encompasing, I suppose, since the effect is less pronounced when I'm not actually in the act of having intercourse...

--Ember--
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
07:27 / 09.11.06
/spellcheck

Menses.

E.

Otherwise it looks like something you'd find in a really alternative restaurant.

/spellcheck
 
 
EmberLeo
19:18 / 09.11.06
*blinks* How'd I...? Oh... Heh, sorry, yes, menses.

--Ember--
 
 
courier5
03:19 / 10.11.06
i'm not sure how helpful it is to label an aspect of an archetype its "shadow," since the concept of shadow (in psychological terms) has to do with conscious and unconscious realities. as soon as we start projecting personality onto an archetype, what we're looking at ceases to be an archetype--becoming instead something between archetype and human. (work on this level enters another playing field entirely.)

sure, there are multiple facets to every archetype. and there are archetypes that contain polarities (puer/senex, anyone?). however, any mention of shadow must indicate relationship to another entity (one person, a collective culture, &c).

giving the "shadow" to the archetype, then, distances us even further from our own shadows. if The Mother has The Witch, then i don't have to look at (and work with) the witch i feared as a child.
 
 
EmberLeo
04:34 / 10.11.06
I had thought (though nothing is coming to mind as an example) that there was another, mythical/archetypical understanding of Shadow that wasn't personified in the same way. Rather, not the psychological shadow of Unconciousness, but more the concept of...

Gah, the only example that comes to mind is the Clurichan's Nemesis from The Sandman...

Do you see where I'm going with this?

--Ember--
 
 
courier5
05:01 / 10.11.06
i think i intuitively grasp what you're speaking of, though specifics evade me as well...

there could very well be a useage of the word "shadow" in that sense (and trying to remember for sure is probably going to keep me awake all night). in that case it would boil down to personal aesthetics.

if we're speaking of a nemesis, a necessary balance, or hidden trait, my preference--when constructing the new mythotechnology--would be to use a completely different word, for clarity and precision's sake.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:25 / 10.11.06
The thing is, I suspect they derive from different interpretations of the same phenomenon.

Our own tendancy to experience our Shadow selves in dreams and (when applicable) visions. So it comes up in Mythology as a big ol' symbol, and then it comes up in Psychology as an entirely different kind of symbol with similar implications on a personal level, but very different implications on an interpersonal level.

Which interpretation you use doesn't much change how an individual will deal with dreaming their own Shadow selves, because a subconcious internalization of the Mythical concept is about the same as the subconcious creating the symbol from scratch. Chicken/Egg.

--Ember--
 
 
setsuna
16:03 / 12.11.06
One of the interesting things I find about the normal female archetypes is that they are very desexualised, certainly in terms of sex as a positive in itself outside of procreation. Perhaps this is why the Crowley's Babalon archetype (the "Lust" card in the Thoth deck) is so interesting. Female sexuality in itself as joy and power.

Is it rotting this thread to talk about shadow work experiences? (I'm new here, so please feel free to set me straight on that)

The Madonna/Whore dichotomy is a favorite of mine. We've projected a lot of our collective shadow regarding sexuality and power onto the Whore. As a society (and I'm talking Western society in this instance) we've certainly progressed in that regard, but I would posit that our progress has partly served to drive the archetype further into the shadows. We often point to our progress in order to deny and minimize what's still operating beneath the surface.

I still feel the pull of having to choose between the power that is derived from being (or being perceived as) virtuous verses the power from being seductive, and possibly therefore perceived as devouring.

Collectively, I wish we could integrate the two, because as an individual doing my own shadow work, I found it to be literally true that massive amounts of psychic energy are bound up in these push-pull struggles. As long as the ego is strong enough to take it, to be able to say "I am this and I am also this, and it's all the same" is pretty powerful. It can really get a person un-stuck, so I could only imagine what it would do for society as a whole.

Um...I hope I haven't just rambled incoherently. In short, I'd love to see the day we embrace the Babalon archetype.
 
  
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