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Zen and magick

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:48 / 07.10.02
I am often thankful that I started studying/practicing zen shortly before I began studying/practicing various occult traditions. So much so that I recommend studying/practicing zen to anyone who tells me they're interested in magick.

There are numerous reasons for this. One, it involves meditation ("zen" translated literally actually means "meditation") which I think leads one to a healthy and peaceful mind, something very valuable to anyone looking to practice the occult. A sort of "wait until the water has settled before you go about pouring it into differently shaped containers or adding color or whatever" idea. It's possible to be a successful magician without having to meditate, but I think it's a good exercise for everyone. It's also another method for training the mind, something every occultist should be doing anyway.

Another reason, and to me by far the most important reason, is that Zen is a peaceful, non-spiritually threatening way to dissolve the ego. Many times while practicing magick I have feared for my sanity. Really, I was just frightened of the destruction of my ego. Studying Zen helped me realize that the destruction of my ego was not something to be feared.

Any non-magically inclined reading this may think that what the above paragraph is describing is psycologically dangerous. And perhaps they're right. Indeed, there are other paths to enlightenment that are safer, psycologically speaking. But what is psycological safety? To me, nothing more than an ego-comfort. And that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid here. I can't go insane if the "I" doesn't exist and never has. I think studying Zen while studying the occult is safer spiritually, however dangerous it is psycologically. I suppose it's up to everyone to choose which one is more valuable to them.

Well? Any thoughts?
 
 
cusm
18:52 / 07.10.02
Why do you equate ego dissolution with psycological danger? It would seem to me that zen would make magick safer, rather than more dangerous. Zen grounds you, shows yuo a way to continue existing even if your mind seems to be blown away. Even at the worst, you can let go, let whatver it was you were messing with pass through you, and you will return to center again. Being able to let go seems safer psychologically, as damage occurs from a failure to release things.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:01 / 07.10.02
Why do you equate ego dissolution with psycological danger?

Well, I do and I don't. I think we can all agree that practicing magick has some inherent psycological risks, yes? I and some I know often use magick to change who or what they "are". But letting go of the ego is by no means an easy task, and if you're using magick to change your "self" while still clinging to the idea that there is a "you" to alter can be dangerous pscologically.

I used to fear for my sanity because often, when practicing magick, I would feel my "self" starting to dissolve, or at least change into an unrecognizable shape. I would no longer have a reasonable grasp on who "I" was. It felt like I was dying psycologically. In one sense, I was trying to cut off the branch I was clinging to while hanging over an abyss.

Basically, if you're not ready to just let go and fall into something unknown, forcing yourself to do so has some pretty heavy psycological risks. In this sense it is dangerous. People do sometimes lose it completely while practicing magick.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:12 / 07.10.02
It would seem to me that zen would make magick safer, rather than more dangerous.

well, yeah. That's my whole point. Safer spiritually, anyway. I'm keeping psycology and spirituality seperate here for a reason.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:51 / 07.10.02
I'm keeping psycology and spirituality seperate here for a reason.

Which begs the question, What reason?

I would agree that Zen is an excellent compliment to magickal practice.
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:01 / 08.10.02
Just curious: Can you recommend anywhere to start with research into zen?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
00:29 / 08.10.02
I second Barry's request.

I'm at a loss to know where to begin with Zen, largely because so much of what's published (or, more accurately, on sale in Borders) seems to be rooted in the sort of chill-out album area, y'know? I've a book called A Western Approach To Zen on my shelf at home, and I'm wondering whether it's a good place to start or not.

And given that I'm only just getting into magick - read a couple of books, but not really practiced it - and zen, I'm keen to perhaps figure out how to meld the two...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
00:51 / 08.10.02
The books of Camden Benares were my starting point.

"A Handful of Zen"
"Zen without Zen Masters"
 
 
Persephone
01:03 / 08.10.02
I like a bit of Alan Watts myself. I forgot the titles of the books, but Johnny and grant knows 'em.
 
 
Stone Mirror
01:49 / 08.10.02
Barry asks Can you recommend anywhere to start with research into zen?

Sit down in a comfortable position, with your back erect. Count your breaths, starting at "one" and continuinig to "ten". When you get to "ten", start at "one" again. If you forget what number you were on, start at "one" again. If you find yourself counting "three hundred forty-seven", start at "one" again. Do it for twenty to thirty minutes. Repeat once or twice daily until you're enlightened.

That's how you "research" Zen.
 
 
illmatic
07:36 / 08.10.02
I'd recommend any books by Wui We Wui (i think) pseudonoym of Sir Terence Grey.Titles are Open Secret, The Tenth man and others I can't recall. These are the most strange ben' up ya head books I've ever read.
 
 
cusm
16:44 / 08.10.02
Note that Zen meditation and Zen philosophy are two different things. The meditation is pretty universally accessible. The philosophy, well, its something that can only be explained in annoying riddles, so I won't even go into it. Its kind of like a study of paradox until you learn to think outside of the limitations of duality and experience "enlightenment" as a form of awakened consciousness, realize how pointless and cyclical it all was untimatelty, and share a bit of the cosmic joke. Its like applied Taoism. The best way to learn that is to find someone who "gets it", and have some long conversations with them. That's how I picked it up, and really, that's how the monks do it, too. For books, well, there's the Tao Te Ching as a good starter. I hear Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a fameously good piece for teaching westerners Zen, but I haven't read it. I also have been reccomended Ashes on the Buddah, but again, I didn't bother to read it since the same person told me the lessons in it in the process of reccomending it to me. I've read some bits of the Tao of Pooh, and enjoyed it.

Its awakening by breaking you, just like the chaos writers are trying to do to you. It about drove me nutso until I got a handle on not having a handle on it. Er, or something like that. Like I said, its hard to descibe without resorting to annoying riddles and paradoxes.

A friend of mine dug up some sound files of Alan Watts's old radio show. There's a lot of them. Try searching on Gnutella or a similar napster spawn and you might get lucky.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:59 / 08.10.02
Which begs the question, What reason?

Psycology seems to be all about the mind and specifically the ego. Not true of spirituality, especially the forms of spirituality being discussed presently. What is good for the ego is not neccessarily good for the spirit, especially as far as zen goes, which openly states that the "self" that psycology deals with is simply an illusion.

Barry: My first book on Zen was Alan Watts' The Way of Zen, which I still recommend to people. Also his The Book, which is not really about Zen but does a damn good job anyway. Also helpful are D.T. Suzuki's essays. Watts has a bunch of books, more than I can name right now, but The Way of Zen is still my favorite.

Also, as cusm noted, the Tao te Ching is very good as well. Zen has a huge Taoist influence. Oddly enough, many of Christ's parables and stories are just as helpful. Christ is generally regarded as a Zen master by many Zen buddhists. There's a story I read somewhere about a master who wanted to see what Christianity was all about but couldn't read English so he asked a student read an excerpt for him that outlined Christianity. The student, knowing a bit about Christianity, read him the Sermon On the Mount. When he was finished, the master said "Beautiful. That is exactly what I have been trying to teach you all these years."

I should warn you, though: These books won't "teach" you zen. They'll give you many varied descriptions of Zen, but that's really all they're good for (unless you're interested in the history and variations within the monastic tradition). You can't "learn" it from these books. You can learn it by doing just about everything else, be it mowing the lawn or playing the guitar or gardening or whatever. You learn it by living, first and foremost. Also, meditation really helps. Eventually all the wacky stories and "annoying riddles" will start to make perfect sense to you (and probably no one else around).

Mr. Illmatic: I've been meaning to read those. How much do they cost, roughly? If I have the money, I won't have to gank 'em.

Its kind of like a study of paradox until you learn to think outside of the limitations of duality and experience "enlightenment" as a form of awakened consciousness, realize how pointless and cyclical it all was untimatelty, and share a bit of the cosmic joke.

not a bad description. As far as the paradox thing goes, I like to think of it like this: all the contradictory statements and descriptions you'll read will seem confusing until you think of it like you're using two ideas to triangulate a third idea that you can't see or point to with words.
 
 
reFLUX
20:00 / 08.10.02
anyone interested in Zen on the web could check out the links in my tread about Zen in The Headshop. (sorry, don't know how to link) it's called Zen?
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:28 / 09.10.02
A link to the Zen Thread in the Headshop
 
  
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