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Culture after auschwitz and me me me

 
  

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illmatic
10:50 / 10.10.02
Following Johnny O's point, there's an exhibition at the Imperial War Museum in London on the Holocaust. Recently been made permanent, I believe.
I don't think it will answer any of your criticisms Janina, but it's well worth seeing. As to being a bit "contrarian" (a word I've just made up) on your course, I think most tutors love it, as most students just sit there and wait for the break.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:54 / 10.10.02
Monkey - I seem to recall that no contemporary source refered to the Eszhovchina as a 'chistka', the Leninist term for a periodic purge of the Party to remove the dead wood (note, incidentally, the similarity of understanding of revolution with this letter written by Thomas Jefferson in which he says that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.")

Although the legal and political context was undoubtedly in place, I think it's questionable whether the Ezhovchina is different only in degree. Or am I just out of date in my Russian history? There were thousands of documents being released from post-Soviet archives when I left University.

In either case, that's not to say the Lenin's own design - and his casual adoption of the politics of Terror - is not a monstrous passage of its own.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:03 / 10.10.02
Janina, to come back to your original questions, it occurs to me that although obviously the Nazi Holocaust is not unique in history as a holocaust, it was a fresh and horrible perception at the time. The world was by then entering the age of mass media - radio and newspapers, news footage in cinemas - and this was the first time such a thing had been brought to everyone's home. The perception then was that this was a unique horror. The shock deriving from it was immense, and we live with the consequences of that shock - as the meandering mudslinging in this thread rather demonstrates.

Moments of horror and redefinition may often be less unique than they appear - the play of power and the style of exercise of power has been altered by September 11th 2001 - yet, when we look back, it may not seem so utterly new as it did on the 12th. The issue is how they are perceived and what gets done with that perception, perhaps.

Moments of joy, alas, do the same thing, and faster. The Berlin Wall came down, but I can barely remember the disunited Germany, though it was my world until I was seventeen. The USSR fell a few years later, and now it's hard to remember the Nuclear Angst.

I'm waffling.
 
 
Bill Posters
12:38 / 10.10.02
Deva, yeah, 'kay, as I said I stand corrected in Lessing's case. I'm still not sure about Arendt though, and this 'destroyed records' claim. If historians all baulked at lack of evidence then we surely wouldn't have histories (or indeed herstories) of many misrepresented and / or silenced groups? Afrocentric and feminist classical scholarship has never allowed relative paucity of source material to stop it.

I take your point about Stalinism Nick (and thanks for getting scientific, at least for a moment.) But...

incidentally, your 20 million figure has not been established. Estimates vary from as many as 40 million to as few as five hundred thousand. I mention this in the interests of academic candour.

Very true. And prompts me to enquire what happened to the last person to question the 6,000,000 figure? And does this not add fuel to my argument that 'we' cannot relate objectively to piles of corpses which are as Haus rightly states all "just as dead" as one another?

And this:

it occurs to me that although obviously the Nazi Holocaust is not unique in history as a holocaust,

I agree, but the Jewish argument - as put over to me by a gay Jewish man in the pub the other night - is that it is unique because no attempt has been made to exterminate an entire 'race' before or since, and so in a qualitative sense, it is without parallel. (There are arguments against this: Rwanda, Armenia and Tasmania spring to mind.) Also, he made the intriguing suggestion that our obsession with the Nazi holocaust is a form of inverted racism insofar as part of what we are thinking is: 'this is simply not the sort of thing that we expect from those sophisticated white folks who gave us Beethoven and have a near superhuman ability to get their trains running on time. That those slitty-eyed vodka-sodden Ruskies slaughter one other is only to be expected. And as for Rwanda, well, black folks are an excitable bunch, a proud warrior race', etc, etc. I dunno if I agree with that line of thought, but I think it's an intriguing argument. Basically, the 'whiter' the perpetrators, the sicker the crime is judged to be by other Europeans. That is more plausibly why "the shock deriving from it" was subjectively so "immense", maybe.

Also, this book covers other holocausts which colonialism caused, another facet of this which we tend to gloss over here in the west partly via an excessive focus on the Nazis. Say "6,000,000 wasted lives" and how many Europeans think of the Irish potato famine?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:26 / 10.10.02
what happened to the last person to question the 6,000,000 figure?

The last person to inquire objectively? Not a great deal, I would think. The last person to trot out the whole tedious 'never was a holocaust' malarky probably got deservedly thumped. You will recall that Hitler's executioners were remarkably systematic with their records, and were eventually brought to trial. The Ezhovchina was conducted on the basis that it was not taking place, and records were either never made or erased - though the opening of the KGB archives was a gold mine - and those involved were mostly executed themselves. Objectively, it's wildly difficult to establish what Stalin himself knew - and yet he must have known.

Basically, the 'whiter' the perpetrators, the sicker the crime is judged to be by other Europeans. That is more plausibly why "the shock deriving from it" was subjectively so "immense", maybe.

I agree that, especially in the context of the time, the idea that 'folk like us' were capable of such a thing was hard to accept - and there's no question that the same logic applies to Stalin's apologists. I don't accept, however, that the coincident arrival of mass media and information distribution can be so readily brushed aside. If you want me to agree that it's "more plausible", you're going to have to prove it, not assert it.

There's no point playing 'spot the holocaust'. I know there are many of them twisted though history like the writing in a stick of rock. And amazingly, to the liberal heart, not all of them are artifacts of colonialism. Each one of them merits sorrow and horror. That doesn't make your position all that much stronger.

I still don't understand what a. makes Nazi atrocities so special,

Timing. Records. Media. Trials. Organisation. Spin. They're important because they were made that way, and we live with that. In the context of the course Janina's talking about, possibly because of the effect they had on an influential group of German (and in Adorno's case, Jewish) left-wing thinkers who had by then emmigrated to the States. Because this was an extermination carried out by ordinary, even familiar people in what appeared to be a non-conflict, non-stress situation. The Milgram experiments, and others, were intended to find out how and why. Whatever the validity, Auschwitz is iconic now, and it echoes wherever there's a massacre.

b. [what] makes people think only Jewish people were affected

Who does?

c. how this sort of course can go on in the light of what's happening in Palestine.

Arguably, this course should be obligatory on that basis. But I don't know that it's going to be as slanted as you seem to think. We'll have to ask Janina.

And this:

If lefties were capable of objectivity this issue would have been faced years ago

You frankly abandon claims to 'scientific' or 'objective' discussion when you say something like that. It's infantile. As, incidentally, is thanks for getting scientific, at least for a moment. I won't bother to assail the futility of 'scientific' discussion of politics, nor the roots of Terror in science. But if you want to be taken seriously in your claims to 'scientific' discussion, then you may want to check your premises a little more carefully.
 
 
Bill Posters
13:56 / 10.10.02
If you want me to agree that it's "more plausible", you're going to have to prove it, not assert it.

The fact that my sentence ends with the word "maybe" surely means that it's not the most assertive point I've made thus far? One might even call such a comment a "suggestion". Without a history of media development in Twentieth Century Western Europe to hand it's not a point I would be prepared to assert.

It's infantile.

I don't see it as "infantile"; I have never heard an infant say any such thing, or demonstrate a particularly deep understanding of political science generally. Though 'science' and 'objective' are of course problematic, I merely implied that prejudice and gut-reactions prevail on the left. Maybe I was just trying to get a discussion going in an agitprop kinda way, maybe I was totally sincere. It doesn't matter. But just because I question the cognitive capacities of the left, I am "infantile" as well as a talker of cock? When you stoop to such a level you are continuing to pile up evidence on my side of the argument, not your own.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:10 / 10.10.02
Has anyone else noticed that this is becoming a discussion not so much about Nazism and Stalinism, or camps and gulags, but Nick and Bill? I feel like I'm watching Possession....
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:27 / 10.10.02
Haus - I think it was supposed to be about Janina's course. Then it was about various holocausts, then Bill's weird world of ignorant 'lefties' and his bizarre continuing insistance that I said he was talking 'cock'.

Bill, the word is 'poppycock', and the OED - whilst giving 'humbug' as an alternative - is unable to supply a derivation, though it lists the word's long and admirable history as a term of political discussion. Your relationship with it continues unabated. And yes, your use of the term 'lefties' in the context of a discussion where you are insisting that others are 'unscientific' or lack objectivity is indeed 'infantile', in that such a label is utterly unscientific, and the self-serving inconsistancy in your argument would be better suited to a playgroup than to a serious discussion.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:43 / 10.10.02
I have heard a derivation of 'poppycock' which has it deriving from the Dutch for 'dung' - poep, I think (that's soft dung, btw - hard dung is stront IIRC which I probably don't).

Oh, am wrong, slightly. Online dictionary says:

Dutch dialectal pappekak : pap, pap (from Middle Dutch pappe, perhaps from Latin pappa, food) + kak, dung (from kakken, to defecate, from Middle Dutch kacken, from Latin cacre; see kakka- in Appendix I).
 
 
The Monkey
22:49 / 10.10.02
Janina - while at this point you're probably well into your course, rendering a lot of this moot, I'd say in short that the Shoah is an unusual confluence of circumstances that led to genocide. A lot of the earlier cases of genocide were, in a sense, incidental to another objective of material or economic nature. The Shoah is at very least the "largest" case of a governmental system cultivating and acting upon a prejudicial ideology without a direct material incentive (land, resources, money).
Now, there is, of course, the matter of how establishing a legal structure of Anti-Semitism gave the Nazi party an easy-out on the immense economic problems that crippled post-WWI Germany, and the debatable degree to which the concentration camps were a natural or stop-gap conclusion to Nazi theory....

Nick - Yes, the Kremlin Archives have been an eye-opener for historical understanding of Lenin as both a leader and a private citizen (the latter having been carefully isolated from public perception even after death...it is a very strange thing to read one of Lenin's more passionate, turgid letters to his mistress). In English-language, I would suggest Richard Pipes' "The Unknown Lenin" (Yale University Press, 1998), which is a collection of translated communications by the man that were contained in the Secret Archive. More generally, Orlando Figes' "A People's Tragedy" is well done history of the Revolution that makes use of supressed documents about the time period.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:14 / 11.10.02
Lenin. Mistress. Passionate. Letters.

Bloody hell.

Off to the bookshop. I don't suppose anyone's printed any of the books from Stalin's personal library - I think Nechaev was the really scary one - with Joe's notes in the margin as comments?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:20 / 11.10.02
Thanks for that version of the Dutch etymology Kit Kat. I too initially thought that it was the case that Nick was accusing me of spouting 'shit'. Moreover, I have read that the 'pap' bit means 'soft', hence I might even have been being accused of spouting 'soft shit' or 'diarrhoea' (this is, ahem, according to well-known etymologist Stephen Fry in The Liar). However, unwilling to accuse Nick of such a heinous crime without good evidence, I checked the OED. To my mind it implies that 'talking poppycock' is an elaboration of 'talking cock'. Hence I accused Nick of claiming that I was talking cock.

As for "lefties", again the OED may offer some assistance. "[T]he kind of person who [...] buys unexamined [...]" (my italics) was precisely what I was getting at. I do not regard that definition as beyond the realm of science as I understand it, and unexamined reactions (or lack thereof) to certain historical facts was precisely what I thought this thread was about.
 
 
grant
13:53 / 11.10.02
In Afrikaans, "pap" is soft porridge, and "kak" is crap.

So.

Why was Stalin killing them Jews?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:41 / 11.10.02
Right, now I shall say two things.

First, blah blah blah, the Shoah was evil.
Right the thing is that the Nazi concentration camps were very cold-blooded killing fest kinda places. Shocking due to the way in which their ideal was executed. We could discuss this for hours, we don't need to, we already know it. I won't even begin to deny that, I'm no David Irving, I simply see a 70 year gap, a lot more atrocity in the world and a religion focusing inwards as all religions will do.

What happened to the Jews and the Gypsies in those camps was awful because two races were persecuted.

What happened to the Jews continues, somehow, to be more recognised. There are many reasons for this and I don't believe I have to elaborate on those and their complexity demands that I don't because this post is already too long, boring, agitated... I have no need to say these things.

Nick, Bill, please carry on, it could turn in to a not so much a fist fight. We could sell tickets, think of the business opportunities!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:44 / 11.10.02
Nope. As far as I'm concerned, that's over. My interest has evaporated. I'd much rather hear about the course and your responses to it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:46 / 11.10.02
Can interest evaporate?

I'll rant on Monday when I know exactly how I feel about the whole goddamn mess (that it's bound to be).
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:52 / 11.10.02
Can interest evaporate? I hadn't thought about it. To the Bat-Grammar! No evil misusage shall stand before us!

Will be intrigued to hear about the course...
 
 
Bill Posters
16:21 / 11.10.02
Nope. As far as I'm concerned, that's over.

Amen to that, and huggles all round to Nick and Deva and whoever else I've insulted on this thread.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:58 / 11.10.02
Actually, Bill, I'd be interested to hear you expound your views about the left in more detail. I don't have any strong feelings about it one way or the other but I might want to. Another thread, perhaps?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:17 / 14.10.02
I hate to bump this up considering the amount of arguing that is embedded here but I'm going to because well, there was a purpose originally.

.........

I just had my first lecture/seminar, I suppose that interesting is the word that comes straight to mind, a lot of people in the class made this occurrence in to an object rather than an event. We were discussing Celan. For those of you who don’t know who Celan is we were basically looking at a Jewish poet whose parents were killed in the camps but who was put in a work camp. Placed in to the context of what Adorno wrote – it was OK, not fantastic. They threw in a few responses to Celan by Levi (patronising bitch) and Gadamer (a little confused). I enjoyed it and the Jewish girl in my group rocks so much harder than everyone else.
 
  

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