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Shadow Government (was: did you know? (holy fucking shit))

 
 
shirtless, beepers and suntans
02:23 / 01.03.02
bedtime reading here


basically, what this story is saying is, in the event of a nuclear attack on washington, a new [non-constitutional] government consisting of people whose names you don't know will run the country.

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: the shirtless moron ]

[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Tom Coates ]
 
 
gozer the destructor
07:11 / 01.03.02
another example of the lack of democracy in the western world, which im sure none of us believed existed anyway, i wouldn't trust dubya to handpick his socks let alone an administration,
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:11 / 01.03.02
Can't such a thing be instituted (vie FEMA- umm. Federal Emergency Management something) in any state of national emergency? (Sorry, my "facts" are not readily to hand right now, but I'm sure I read that somewhere... maybe I just read too many Jim Keith books.)
Anyway, that is fucking scary whichever way you look at it.
I read an article the other day (in I think the Guardian, though I could be wrong) about declassified files from the Cold War- the weirdest and most prosaic thing in it was that because the commander of the nuclear submarine fleet wouldn't know for sure if a strike had been launched (?) one of the signs he had to look for was if BBC Radio 4's "Today" programme was off the air for a week... I so hope the new chairman etc. of the BBC know this. (One of the options given him under such circumstances was, apparently, make your way to the US and offer your services. What, I wondered, would happen if it was the US that had nuked Britain?)
Only half tongue-in-cheek. I'm still scared.
 
 
kid coagulant
11:36 / 01.03.02
I miss the days when the US could keep it's secret shadow governments secret shadow governments. It's gotta be like Dr. Strangelove down there.
 
 
rizla mission
11:41 / 01.03.02
quote:Originally posted by the shirtless moron:
basically, what this story is saying is, in the event of a nuclear attack on washington, a new [non-constitutional] government consisting of people whose names you don't know will run the country.


I was kind of under the impression that given "a nuclear attack on washington" and it's obvious and wide-ranging consequences, there'd be fuck all left to run, so who cares?

Or is that a bit old fashioned? post-M.A.D 'terrorist' nuking and suchlike..
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:04 / 01.03.02
For some reason I picture Dick Cheney with his pinky in the corner of his mouth, saying "welcome to my underground lair."
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
13:12 / 01.03.02
The funny thing for me today was watching the Pentagon's press conference where they complained about it being called a "shadow government" and did their best to make it sound like a perfectly normal thing that no one should pay attention to.

"These are just a few people who would keep things running during a time of crisis."

Right.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:13 / 01.03.02
Oh, and by the way, here's where most of 'em probably are:

Mt. Weather
 
 
grant
14:06 / 01.03.02
Could someone please retitle this thread to something like "shadow government"? I nearly started another thread on this without reading this one....

Here's a couple quotes from the Washington Post:

quote:Execution of the classified "Continuity of Operations Plan" resulted not from the Cold War threat of intercontinental missiles, the scenario rehearsed for decades, but from heightened fears that the al Qaeda terrorist network might somehow obtain a portable nuclear weapon, according to three officials with firsthand knowledge. U.S. intelligence has no specific knowledge of such a weapon, they said, but the risk is thought great enough to justify the shadow government's disruption and expense.

Deployed "on the fly" in the first hours of turmoil on Sept. 11, one participant said, the shadow government has evolved into an indefinite precaution. For that reason, the high-ranking officials representing their departments have begun rotating in and out of the assignment at one of two fortified locations along the East Coast.


quote:Officials who are activated for what some of them call "bunker duty" live and work underground 24 hours a day, away from their families. As it settles in for the long haul, the shadow government has sent home most of the first wave of deployed personnel, replacing them most commonly at 90-day intervals.

The civilian cadre present in the bunkers usually numbers 70 to 150, and "fluctuates based on intelligence" about terrorist threats, according to a senior official involved in managing the program. It draws from every Cabinet department and some independent agencies. Its first mission, in the event of a disabling blow to Washington, would be to prevent collapse of essential government functions.


quote:Known internally as the COG, for "continuity of government," the administration-in-waiting is an unannounced complement to the acknowledged absence of Vice President Cheney from Washington for much of the pastfive months. Cheney's survival ensures constitutional succession, one official said, but "he can't run the country by himself." With a core group of federal managers alongside him, Cheney -- or President Bush, if available -- has the means to give effect to his orders.

And here's something from other sources:

quote:PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And the guidelines for this precautionary measure have been available to the government, as Barbara just mentioned, since the Cold War. And one of the locations which was ready to protect members of Congress was the set of elaborate bunkers, which you'll see shortly, located at the Greenbrier resort in the White Sulfur Springs area of West Virginia. And the site has actually been open to the public. You can take tours of this place. Since the mid 1990s, thousands of people have done just that, including myself. You can see the facilities, including the dorms and the clinics and the command centers. And the deputy national security adviser in the Clinton administration, Jim Steinberg, is very familiar with the plans. He joins us now from Washington.

Welcome, good to see you, sir.

JIM STEINBERG, FMR. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Good morning. Good morning.

ZAHN: So were you surprised by this news?

STEINBERG: I think it's -- it's interesting that the administration has decided to activate this on such an extensive basis. But this is something that's been planned for for a long time. As you mentioned, it's a -- it comes out of the Cold War, but there's been actually a lot of updating of the plan since the Cold War, as we've begun to realize that there are risks in addition to the risks of a nuclear catastrophe. The possibility of a biological or chemical attack even in the end of the Cold War period means that we had to have some ideas and some plans ready to go in the event of an emergency.

ZAHN: All right. Jim, you said you're somewhat surprised this is being -- and I want to make sure I'm using the correct words -- activated so widely. Why is that a surprise, because this potentially could cause undue alarm?

STEINBERG: No, but I think that it's -- the question is whether you need to be on a permanent basis. I think the plan has always provided for having the operations to be able to be implemented very quickly, within a matter of hours. And I think the decision now to move this towards, in fact, a semi-permanent arrangement, will be more problematic in terms of making sure that we don't get confused about what the priorities are in a time of attack.

But it is certainly the case that we need to have these plans as a standby. It's a matter of reassurance. We have a lot of critical functions that need to be preserved. And I think what we'll need to do now is examine what is the best strategy in the ongoing campaign against terrorism to do this in a way that provides that continuity and assurance, but also doesn't create confusion with the regular operations of government.

ZAHN: So let me understand this morning fully what you're saying. I know you think it's a prudent thing to have these kinds of contingency plans in place. Certainly, you did during the Clinton administration. But are you fearful that it will cause Americans great unease?

STEINBERG: I don't think it's a question of causing Americans great unease. I think it's more a question of what's the most efficient way to use our government and our government capabilities. I think if it becomes simply a routine matter in which people are sent out for extended periods of time, that it won't necessarily improve our ability to react to contingencies that we haven't planned for. It's very important to test these capabilities. We've run exercises and it's important to do that. Obviously, in times of greater alert, it's important to do it.

We need to have an effective capacity on a standby basis. And I think it's just important to assure that we're not taking out key personnel out of their day-to-day functions of government in a way that doesn't make us able to function as well in a non-crisis situation.

ZAHN: Jim, final question for you. When you ran your own exercise in the Clinton administration, did you find the same thing that reportedly Bush administration officials are finding? That some of these bunker areas are highly antiquated, that they don't have enough phone lines, that the computers aren't up to snuff?

STEINBERG: I think it's certainly true that with the end of the Cold War that the resources that were put into this declined, because we began to feel that there was very little likelihood of a nuclear attack. But as we've come to understand more about the capability of terrorists, there has been an upgrading. In 1998, President Clinton issued a new directive to upgrade the capabilities. That was a process that was underway because we recognized that the threat of a chemical or biological attack could, in many ways, have some of the same kinds of problems that a nuclear attack would have had during the Cold War.

ZAHN: Jim Steinberg, nice to have your insights this morning. We identified you as the former deputy national security adviser, you're now at the Brookings Institution, right?

STEINBERG: Thank you.

ZAHN: Good luck with your new job.


Weird that they'd use the Greenbrier - that area got declassified a few years back.
My godfather lives not far from there. He says the hotel was set up like some kind of James Bond thing, with secret elevators behind vault doors off the hotel ballroom and stuff.

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
14:07 / 01.03.02
So how is, say, France this time of year? I'm serious. I'm getting the fuck out of here. Especially if that twat gets re-elected. I'm not going to sit around and watch him flush our rights down the toilet for much longer.
Arthur Sudnam
 
 
grant
14:12 / 01.03.02
Belize is lovely, and they speak English there.
 
 
kid coagulant
14:27 / 01.03.02
<<<Hello? Hello, Dimitri? Listen, I can't hear too well, do you suppose you could turn the music down just a little? Oh, that's much better. Yes. Fine, I can hear you now, Dimitri. Clear and plain and coming through fine. I'm coming through fine too, eh? Good, then. Well then as you say we're both coming through fine. Good. Well it's good that you're fine and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. Now then Dimitri. You know how we've always talked about the possibility of something going wrong with the bomb. The bomb, Dimitri. The hydrogen bomb. Well now what happened is, one of our base commanders, he had a sort of, well he went a little funny in the head. You know. Just a little... funny. And uh, he went and did a silly thing. Well, I'll tell you what he did, he ordered his planes... to attack your country. Well let me finish, Dimitri. Let me finish, Dimitri. Well, listen, how do you think I feel about it? Can you imagine how I feel about it, Dimitri? Why do you think I'm calling you? Just to say hello? Of course I like to speak to you. Of course I like to say hello. Not now, but any time, Dimitri. I'm just calling up to tell you something terrible has happened. It's a friendly call. Of course it's a friendly call. Listen, if it wasn't friendly, ... you probably wouldn't have even got it. They will not reach their targets for at least another hour. I am... I am positive, Dimitri. Listen, I've been all over this with your ambassador. It is not a trick. Well I'll tell you. We'd like to give your air staff a complete run down on the targets, the flight plans, and the defensive systems of the planes. Yes! I mean, if we're unable to recall the planes, then I'd say that, uh, well, we're just going to have to help you destroy them, Dimitri. I know they're our boys. Alright, well, listen... who should we call? Who should we call, Dimitri? The people...? Sorry, you faded away there. The People's Central Air Defense Headquarters. Where is that, Dimitri? In Omsk. Right. Yes. Oh, you'll call them first, will you? Uh huh. Listen, do you happen to have the phone number on you, Dimitri? What? I see, just ask for Omsk Information. I'm sorry too, Dimitri. I'm very sorry. Alright! You're sorrier than I am! But I am sorry as well. I am as sorry as you are, Dimitri. Don't say that you are more sorry than I am, because I am capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, alright? Alright. Yes he's right here. Yes, he wants to talk to you. Just a second.>>>
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0055.html
 
 
sleazenation
14:28 / 01.03.02
Yeah but there is a perminent presence of British troops to deter Guatenala from invading ... and the worlds second largest barrier reef too.
 
 
mr insensitive
20:43 / 01.03.02
Got to love Dr Strangelove. Shows you that in the face of the truth all you can do is laugh in the face of maddness.

"You can't fight in here - This is the war-room!"

Fuck it. Drop the bomb. I'm not afraid of dying.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:12 / 02.03.02
quote:Originally posted by arthur_sudnam:
So how is, say, France this time of year? I'm serious. I'm getting the fuck out of here.


Uh, what do you think clinched my decision to leave the country, guy?

Anyway, I am sure they will think of new, catchier, less scary name than "shadow government" in less than a week. The Bush administration probably has Karl Rove and the PR team working on it right now, actually.

What is especially disturbing about this is the fact that while this is a contingency plan in place for the executive branch, we don't know what the legislative and judicial branch have in place for themselves. Which kind of removes the idea of checks and balances in the time of national crisis.

Fucking hell.
 
 
penitentvandal
10:24 / 02.03.02
Hang on though...What you're basically saying is that in the case of a terrorist attack, a shadowy group of unelected individuals whose names we don't know and who are accountable to no-one would run the country?

Business as usual, then, if you ask me...
 
 
fluid_state
19:41 / 02.03.02
quote: Cheney's survival ensures constitutional succession, one official said, but "he can't run the country by himself." With a core group of federal managers alongside him, Cheney -- or President Bush, if available -- has the means to give effect to his orders.

funny how Bush is mentioned as an afterthought, eh? "Oh, yeah, that pupp.. uh, president. Yeah, if anything goes wrong, he'll be our first choice. honest. Mr. Cheney's just, uh, a contingency. yeah, that's it. a contingency."
 
 
Lionheart
19:40 / 12.03.02
Rizla: Your statement, that if Washington D.C. gets nuked then there'd be nothing left to run, suprises me. I think you forgot about the rest of the United States of America.

Oh, and a national emergency (suspencion of the Constitution) can be declared by either the President (in which case it'll take something like a week to take effect) or by the Attorney General (John Ashcroft. If he's the one who announces a state of national emergency then the order will be put in effect in 24 hours.)

Now, my question is, what would you do if a state of National Emergency is put up and and the worst-case scenario of the government taking over takes place?
 
 
rizla mission
08:53 / 13.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Rizla: Your statement, that if Washington D.C. gets nuked then there'd be nothing left to run, suprises me. I think you forgot about the rest of the United States of America.


I was thinking in terms of M.A.D, as in if a big US city got nuked then soon missles would be flying around all over the place and any thoughts of continuing to 'run' an industrialised nation, or indeed running your own nervous system, would be up the creek..

,but then, as I say, maybe that's an old fashioned view (sure hope it is), who knows..
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:38 / 13.03.02
...and you have to wonder if all the nukes are a)on automatic, and b)still aimed at the former USSR..

..would they be that lazy? If a nuclear explosion went off in the US, would Russia and China get an automatic response before it was determined what happened?

<shudder> ...and life starts to resemble a Tom Clancy book once again....that's all we need.
 
 
MJ-12
09:30 / 14.03.02
no automatic response, although I suppose given some people's though tprocesses you might as well call it automatic.

On of the reasons for the sub fleet is that, being immune to a first strike, they don't end up in a position of needing to launch on warning to be effective
 
  
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