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The future of A levels

 
 
Fist Fun
08:30 / 02.10.02
There had been a bit of debate about the future of the A level exam system. There are two main issues – quality and uniformity. Is the focus on a small number of subjects a handicap compared with the wider range of a baccalaureate style exam, or is the depth an asset to be cherished? How do A levels fit into a wider European or world context?

I do think there needs to be a change for both reasons. We need standardized exams on, at very least, the European level purely for utility reasons. Why should the quality and range of teaching differ between different countries. Is there any need. A uniform approach would increase the choice of higher education available, allow the best people to be compared without any false barriers of achievement, and arguably is a vital part of the free movement of people with the European Union.

As regards quality of the qualification I don’t think school is the best place to study a subject in depth. Surely that should be left to the university level? The choice of a levels is made at a relatively young age and ultimately restricts career and university choices. So you are forced into making a huge choice about the direction of your life at 15 or so. Much better to have a broader range of subjects to study and choose from.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:44 / 02.10.02
I've always taken the view that school is where you go to a) figure out what you're interested in/good at, and b) learn how to actually learn stuff. (Other than reading and writing and stuff like that- they're kind of necessary in themselves).

A standardised qualification would make things a lot easier, what with freedom of movement of labour and all that. But would anyone ever actually agree on what it was to be?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:01 / 02.10.02
Funny that this should come up, I was arguing with my housemate about this yesterday afternoon. I couldn't agree with the baccalaureate being introduced in to this country mostly because it's really difficult. Sixteen to eighteen year olds should not be put under that pressure, all your life you end up working and working, why make the beginning more harsh?

My view is very coloured, I was hopeless at a lot of things academically and otherwise, I didn't need more choice but I don't believe many people do. Is three or four subjects not enough at 'A' level? I would not have carried on in education without severe misery if I'd had to do science subjects because I struggled with them at a basic level. I tried to learn in that way and found it impossible.

Practically the entire nature of teaching would need upheaval for a better system to be introduced, more subjects would need to be introduced and more teachers, we have no philosophy, media, psych or sociology taught in the majority of British schools and we have very few people willing to take up the profession of teaching.

Furthermore I would ask you in what way we choose the path of our lives at the age of fiteen? Compulsory subjects stick until further education, we do ten maybe twelve separate subjects for GCSE's and have little chopice beyond those anyway. The problem, as you call it, is with further education
 
 
Fist Fun
16:01 / 02.10.02
Furthermore I would ask you in what way we choose the path of our lives at the age of fifteen?

Not sure when A level topics are chosen but I made my choices for Highers when I was 15. You do 5 subjects in fifth year then you can do more if you stay for a sixth year.

I take your points about the logistic difficulties of changing the system but I don't really want to focus on that. I mean if it is substantially better to change then they can be overcome.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:40 / 02.10.02
My GCSE choices were for the ones that I felt I could do for two years without going mad, My A Levels were based on a similar sort of idea with a 'romantic' notion of what I wanted to do with my life, which turned out to be wrong. It was only when I went for my university course that I knew what career I wanted to follow.
But YMMV
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
17:42 / 02.10.02
The idea of making a wider choice is good. The current system, I felt that I was choosing the subjects which I liked so much that I wanted to keep doing them. I'd like to see a system where I would simply get rid of the subjects I didn't like, and kept doing the rest. This would leave me with six or seven subjects rather than three of four, which is plenty of choice, but still specialised enough for me to choose whether I would be doing mostly scientific subjects or artistic.

It is true that 15 is too young for many people to choose their future career. This is where the in-depth study of a career subject, such as psychology or law, is a bad idea. But I think most people would have decided a general direction, towards the type of job they are best suited too (say sciencey or arty or mathematical -whatever) It would be quite easy for someone studying eight subjects to have a pretty major change in ambitions or choice of career at age eighteen.

As it is, I feel that I am pretty tied down to a science-based job. Deciding nest week to become, for instance, a journalist, might be awkward. But with an extra three subjects I could study maybe English, History or a foreign language as well as Biology, Chemistry Physics and Maths. This would give me loads more choice in University courses and careers.

Of course the In-depthness (thata word? I don't think so!) of the courses would have to suffer. But, talking to teachers, A-Levels are infringing more and more on University Level subject areas. Many have a surplus of depth, not a lack.

Shortages of teachers may be less of a problem with a wider qualification. Most A-Level teachers seem to have a degree in the subject they are teaching. Usually a good degree as well. In subjects where people with degrees in that subject are usually much better paid than teachers (eg. Maths, Physics) few of the teachers have a degree.
The maths teachers without degrees struggle to explain the more complex areas of the syllabus, occasionally even to comprehend them. I think they would be much better suited to teaching a less in-depth maths qualification, to more people.

Certain subjects have such a huge drop-out rate after the first year that the local education authority cuts their funding. The school has no choice but to (rather ham-fistedly) merge classes and drop lessons. A broader curriculum would
probably lower drop-out rates (especially if you didn't have such an easy take-a-single-year-and-run option) as failing in one subject need not drop your overall level of qualification down so much.

For example, if I were to completely lose the concept of mathematical thought next month, I could compensate for this by trying harder in the other six subjects. As it is, I would lose a quarter of the qualifications I gain in the sixth form, and my chances of studying on the Uni course I want to.

International qualifications do exist. But schools, especially in the UK, tend not to offfer them. Many are US-centric, poorly translated and difficult to compare to local qualifications. A real international baccalaureate would need to be adopted over a wide area, such as the whole EU. It would also need to be adaptable, as different countries teach different things lower down the school system. But it would be useful for employers to be able to compare candidates from all over the world on the same scale. Maybe the international baccalaureate just needs to be a standardisation of grades.

Well, who cares, I'm out of this particular system next year. Hopefully. ;-)
 
 
Fist Fun
18:35 / 02.10.02
This would leave me with six or seven subjects rather than three of four, which is plenty of choice, but still specialised enough for me to choose whether I would be doing mostly scientific subjects or artistic.


I think at school level there should be a very wide focus to studies so that you don't get to choose between science or art - you have to do both. At the same time you have to remove the focus from achievement ( esp league tables, etc) and allow people to find subjects that they are good at and also find subjects that they aren't so good at. Because it is ok not to be good at something, you don't have to just do what you are good at. You don't have to be a high achiever to enjoy a subject...and isn't that what a-levels do? They force you to choose what you are best at...which isn't always in your best interests...
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:59 / 02.10.02
My feeling is that internal consistency rather than an attempt to conform with other countries standards is what is required. Broadly speaking, one can point to two approaches to education at the post-16 level.

One of these is to study subjects in depth as was the case with our old A-level system. Three subjects taken to a high level then catapaults the students into further in depth study on a three year University course.

A problem with this is early specialisation, which may limit the students' outlook. This is a fair criticism, but one shouldn't confuse it with a funnelling into rigid career paths. The point of in depth study is that one acquires skills, rather than knowledge, which are potentially applicable to a very wide range of jobs. I knew quite a few Classicists at Uni who are now doing prestigious jobs unrelated to translating dead languages.

The in-depth approach can also suffer from being a touch elitist. It only really works if there are lots of oppurtunities for people to take different routes through education.

The other approach is to develop a broad educational base which has the advantages of encouraging wide participation. However, the aspect of greater vocational focus is rather two edged. Ironically, it an lead to less flexibility in later decisions and career choices. Also, it can suffer from being overly concrete in a way that dampens rather than encourages well-roundedness (this might tie in with the personality types discussion in the conversation). Intellectual curiosity is cross disciplinary, once awakened.

In the UK, we currently have a mix between the two systems. The A levels are essentially becoming broad. But further education is still mostly limited to three or four years. The broad system requires a longer term in higher education if you want to encourage the highest levels in academic achievement.

But, talking to teachers, A-Levels are infringing more and more on University Level subject areas. Many have a surplus of depth, not a lack. - Karika

Many maths departments I have been to complain that a good proportion of their degrees are taken up with going over A level material. I know of more than one University where the first year is little more than a rehash of final year A levels. In fact, there is concern that the brevity of UK degrees, in relation to broad A levels, will have a major impact on the standing of their international worth. Most foreigners I have spoken to seem to agree with this assessment, though I should stress that it is only in one subject.
 
 
Fist Fun
20:20 / 02.10.02
But there is no such thing as a UK degree or even a UK secondary education system. Scottish degrees are normally 4 years, English ones 3 but say you do languages it might count as a year out (which takes a Glasgow BA to 5 years, but leaves an Edinburgh MA at 4) there are different perceptions in quality, oxbridge universities have entrance exams and aren't part of UCAS. For much of the time that uniqueness and locality works quite well but that isn't what is needed at secondary level. At the very least you need a completely uniform approach across Europe. Choose the best system and apply it equally.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:28 / 02.10.02
Choosing 'em's a funny proposition- I wanted to take Drama at O level (which would have been GCSE by the time I did it) but it clashed timetable-wise with German, which I was good at. Boy, did that suck. My career in German movies was shot down right there.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:30 / 02.10.02
But there is no such thing as a UK degree or even a UK secondary education system - Buk

In secondary education, you might want to separate out Scotland (and NI?) from the rest of the UK, but the principles are broadly the same. The similarities far outweigh the differences. One might argue that the intended uniformity at the seondary school level stifles individual teachers. I'm not sure about that, but I have heard it argued. I really don't see why uniformity across Europe would be desirable.

As for degrees, although there is a certain amount of variation, one can also point to trends that operate broadly. Complete uniformity at this level would be absurd, so it doesn't really say much to point to Oxford and Cambridge.

BTW, IIRC, Oxford and Cambridge no longer have entrance exams and are part of UCAS.
 
 
Fist Fun
07:49 / 03.10.02
Do you ever wonder what people did before the welfare state or pension rights and stuff. Well, I don't really mean wonder because it is all written down in books so we can easily find out. These things are such good ideas that it seems absurd that they didn't always exist. A global, uniform approach to secondary education is gonna fit right in there. Of course global is hugely ambitious but it needs to be done and it will unlock so much potential.

I really don't see why uniformity across Europe would be desirable.

Any particular reason for this vision, Lurid? It doesn't seem to be self-evident. I think there are some great reasons for a more uniform approach. Are teenagers in different countries so different, so unique and special, that they have to be taught differently? A European education system would create greater choice (possibly more subjects at school level and definitely more choice at university level), have greater economies of scale, and would make mobility among countries much more natural.

I know that seems kind of naff when we talk about the European level. The perfection of the single market (free movement of people goods and services) isn’t really a shining ideal. But think globally. If poor and rich countries had the same exam system, funded by global taxation, then migration, inter-mingling of populations would be much easier, society would be much more meritocratic…it would just be good, yeah.

So choose the best system and apply it evenly. First Europe (not very exciting but practical and necessary) then the world.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:13 / 03.10.02
Nice ideal... in the end it always seems to come back to that rather flimsy thing that we like to call cultural difference. Different attitude to work, different state education system, different types of schools (state, public). These things make it practically impossible to internationalise the education system in the way that you're suggesting. Are you talking about the whole world- I can't see a war torn African nation having the same system as us- or the middle east at the moment for that matter (they don't seem to like us. Hahaha).

It's just not possible practically.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:33 / 03.10.02
Any particular reason for this vision, Lurid? It doesn't seem to be self-evident.

I'm saying that I am failed to be convinced by the merits of EU wide conformity. I think I've covered some of the points already.

For a start, you have an unexamined view of greater choice and uniformity as desirable. I've argued that the former can lead to greater rigidity if it overemphasises specific, even vocational, knowledge. The second might make sense at secondary level, but uniformity at that scale is in danger of being too rigid. Great if you want to teach people the correct procedure for using sprocket 1A in a wide flanged gasket. Possibly bad if you want to educate.

As for immigration, I think that you are perhaps equating education with job skills. If we want education to be solely about getting people onto a conveyor belt for their chosen jobs, then you are right. I think that is a sad vision of education. I can see a benefit for common, or at least mutually recognised, professional qualifications. But that is a different matter.

At most you might argue that A levels affect your choices of course at Uni, here or abroad. But this is a weak argument, since they are mostly acknowledged abroad. Also, if one wants to change direction it is always possible to get more quals or even take up study with a Uni that requires no specific bits of paper - like the Open University.
 
  
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