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Book Club: Le Morte D'Arthur

 
 
grant
17:13 / 01.10.02
As requested, I'm starting a new thread.

grant
At 00:25 27.09.2002:

Anyone up for a book club approach to either a book from the Apocrypha or a section of Le Morte D'Arthur??

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Trijhaos
At 02:09 27.09.2002:

I'm up for Le Morte D'Arthur. I have a copy around here somewhere. Any particular section?
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grant

At 23:22 30.09.2002:

Hmm. Either the Grail Quest or else the Tristram & Isolde story, I think. Which'd you be up for?

Anyone else into this? Should I start a new topic?

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Kit-Cat Club
At 19:24 01.10.2002:

Yeah - Vinaver edition or Caxton? (I assume we'd be doing Malory as a ground rather than any of the other versions...)
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What I have is a Penguin edition, a sort of half-translation (there's a huge glossary of Middle English words, and a footnote with definition the first time each "weird" word appears). It's got Caxton's intro in the front, but I seem to recall a professor telling me it was a hybrid of both.
Which is a fancy way for me to say, "Uhhh - I dunno." I like the Penguin version, though.
 
 
Trijhaos
19:02 / 01.10.02
The copy I have is put out by Mentor Books and is a new rendition by Keith Baines. It's based off the Vinaver edition. Are there major differences between the Vinaver and Caxton editions?
 
 
grant
19:20 / 01.10.02
Had to look it up myself:

William Caxton published the first edition of Malory's work, which Caxton titled "Le Morte Darthur," in 1485, in the same month in which Henry Tudor invaded to defeat Richard III and claim the throne, and five or six years after the author's last explicit indicates he finished the manuscript (726). Due to the presence of offsets of wet ink from Caxton's edition on several leaves of the Winchester MS, we believe Caxton had that MS in his print shop in addition to the manuscript he worked from. At some point soon after, both manuscripts were lost until 1934 when W. F. Oakeshott discovered one in the safe in the director's bedroom at the Fellows' Library of Winchester College. At the time, no-one doubted that Eugene Vinaver, the pre-eminent scholar of the French Arthurian romances, was the best person to edit the new manuscript. However, World War II intervened and non-essential publications were postponed to save materiele for the war effort. After the war ended, Vinaver returned to the editing project and produced the three-volume Oxford edition. Vinaver's edition was fiinally published in 1947, and it attempted to demonstrate that William Caxton's first printed edition (1485) had falsely created the illusion of a single, coherent work out of a series of eight separate romances. Vinaver's argument came under immediate and somewhat successful attack by (mostly) American New Critics and a few British rebels, including D.S. Brewer and C.S. Lewis (see Essays on Malory, ed. J.A.W. Bennett, Oxford: Clarendon, 1963 and Malory's Originality, ed. R.M. Lumiansky, Baltimore: JHU, 1964). You are at your liberty to treat the text either way, but try to be consistent.

Note, however, that if you read as if the romances are separated, a character's statements and behavior in one romance cannot be used to explain her/his statements and behavior in another. They are separate creations. So, for instance, it might be that in one romance, Lancelot and Guenivere are chaste and falsely accused of adultery, and in another they might be passionate and illicit lovers.
 
 
The Strobe
07:05 / 02.10.02
Damn. And me with my Vinaver at home.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
03:32 / 03.10.02
I'm in, but I only have the Caxton edition at hand.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:43 / 03.10.02
I'll be in - as soon as I ferret one of the two Vinavers out of the boxes they're packed in. Either that, or etext...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:57 / 03.10.02
Mine is the Penguin classics Caxton version. It won't make that much difference, I think - any confusion will be relatively minor...
 
 
grant
17:33 / 03.10.02
So - which tale catches people's fancy?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:50 / 03.10.02
Something with not too much yclepting of helms (it gets boring) and more mystical overtones? What you suggesting, grant?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:46 / 04.10.02
If I can find a copy (and I'm sure I had one once upon a time) then I'd like to do this... maybe the humanities library has one...
 
 
grant
19:05 / 04.10.02
Well, Rothkoid, what I said earlier was The Grail Quest or Tristram (or Tristran) and Isolde (or Isaud).
Those would be the two elements that interest me, but I'm open to other suggestions. (The rise of Arthur/Excalibur? Gareth's tale? The invasion of Rome? Lancelot & Guinivere's affair?)

The Grail Quest tends to get a bit repetitive and confusing, since you're following the adventures of several groups of knights told sort of out-of-sequence (lots of "Meanwhile, in Gawain's camp..." captions would be necessary in the comic book version).
It's the most overtly allegorical section of the book, the most concerned with the spiritual elements of knighthood, and what it means to be a man of the cross *and* and man of the sword. There's a lot of mystical imagery, and Galahad is a badass of a sort you don't see so often in fiction anymore.

Tristram & Isolde, on the other hand, is a more straightforward adventure tale, but seems to me to have a holographic relationship to the rest of the book; the action primarily takes place in Cornwall, as sort of a "lesser England," and deals with a disruptive love triangle, just like the affair between Lancelot & Guinevere that eventually undoes King Arthur's court. Tristram is often described as the greatest worldly knight save Lancelot (sort of a lesser reflection). Unlike Arthur, however, King Mark is really a nasty piece of work.
And unlike the Lancelot/Guinevere story, there's a really puzzling relationship between Tristram and his foil, Sir Palomides. Palomides is a Saracen (Muslim) convert to Christianity who can't quite fit in in the Christian world. He loves Isolde and admires Tristram above all other knights, but Isolde doesn't love him, and Tristram keeps beating him in combat. There's something instructional about his story; he's never depicted as a villain plain and simple, but as a sympathetic character struggling with faith and duty and love.

Isolde is a fairly well developed character; the women in the Grail Myth tend to be more archetypal (although there are some tricky exceptions along the way).

There's a lot of helm shattering in both stories, and a lot of mystical imagery - T&I is more familiarly narrative, but still loaded with symbolism, while Galahad & the Grail is more weirdly allegorical, so it takes more effort.


Oh, and if anyone wants a free copy of the book, Project Gutenberg offers it as a two-part download.
It's also all available online here.


Reference aids:
This page is a wealth of information, with links to all sorts of information & critical perspectives, including these teaching notes, explaining, roughly, what goes on in each book of the Morte, and this essay, "The Writable Lesbian and Lesbian Desire in Malory's Morte Darthur" hosted on a site run by my old alma mater, where I first read this stuff. (sniff!) It references Isolde, but my academese is so rusty, I'm not sure how central she is.
 
 
Persephone
00:15 / 05.10.02
And my axe, I found a Vinaver at the used bookstore tonight! Tristram and Isolde appeals to me, but I'll go along with whatever...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:24 / 07.10.02
Well, judging from the big asterisks in my Vinaver (!!) I read The Launcelot/Guinevere and Morte Arthur Saunz Guerdon books when I was at uni. But I'm up for Tristan because it'll give me a bit entry point into Wagner, and I can then shoehorn Cavatina into joining our merry band.
 
 
grant
14:35 / 07.10.02
So, when should we start?
 
 
Ariadne
15:09 / 07.10.02
Having been gently encouraged in this direction by Persephone, I'll say ... oh, okay, why not. After a summer of Big Books, I'm in a pretty light-reading mode at the moment, but I'll give it a try.
 
 
Persephone
15:41 / 07.10.02
Yay, Ariadne's in! Ariadne is a mighty reader. Actually I am not finding the reading to be very hard, and you know that I am just recovering from brain-fever... start fu Inlé? Hang on, that's rabbits... seriously if we are just reading one tale, won't one or two weeks be enough time for everyone to read?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:39 / 08.10.02
I've got a big fuck-off Omega hardback with Beardsley pictures (which I picked up for a tenner years ago)... I'm well up for this, cos I haven't read it for years, but fear I may have problems reading it on the bus...
 
 
Ariadne
10:54 / 08.10.02
Stoatie - a possible tip for your big book: I went to visit Darwin´s house the other day, and in his study you see books ripped in half. If a book was too big to read, riiiiiiiiip it would go, right down the spine.

I´ve only once done this, and I still look at the poor book (books?) and wince. I was reading an Italo Calvino novel, can´t remember which, and had taken it with me on a two day tramping outing. (I was in New Zealand, okay? You go tramping...)

We got to the youth hostel on the first night and I wanted to read my book. But my boyfriend hadn´t brought anything to read. He was bored, pacing up and down, interrupting me, generally being a pest, until in a fit of grumpiness I ripped off the front part of the book and threw it at him.

And he didn´t even like it.

To stop this being total threadrot, can anywhere tell me where I can buy this in London? If i go to Foyle´s, for example, where do I look for it?
 
 
Persephone
13:29 / 08.10.02
I found mine right in Fiction, under Malory. Which actually surprised me. When I was looking for the Iliad at Barnes & Noble, I finally found it under History. Which is wrong, isn't it?
 
 
Ariadne
14:09 / 08.10.02
Ah - cool, okay, I´ll try fiction. Like you, I had a hard time finding The Iliad and other classics, which is why I asked.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:01 / 08.10.02
I think Foyle's probably has it under classics actually, as they have separate sections for fiction and literachur...

... needless to say, I have left my copy in Southsea along with half the other things I needed. I'll see if there's a copy in the college library.
 
 
grant
02:48 / 10.10.02
Howsabout we divide the discussion up by book - so if it's Tristram we're doing (and it seems like we are), then Book 8 we start discussin' by, say, Halloween?
I'm not great at scheduling these sorts of things, so if anyone has better ideas, seize the reins now.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:25 / 10.10.02
Sounds about right to me...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:10 / 10.10.02
Ariadne- NOOOOOOOOO! I was well pissed off when my flatmate inadvertently knocked a REALLY CRAP THRILLER into my dog's water bowl... you can't hurt books, not really- it'd be like kicking a puppy. Deliberately ripping them in half? No, of course.

Halloween for book 8 sounds cool to me.
 
 
Ariadne
12:26 / 10.10.02
Right, I now have the book. And a big bugger it is, too. But I promise to keep it in one piece.
 
 
Persephone
13:16 / 10.10.02
Halloween, very good.
 
 
grant
13:59 / 10.10.02
I'm also not sure what kind of background is necessary to get the Tristram story.

Some of the characters overlap with figures in the rest of the story, but it stands as its own narrative fairly well. Some of the characters are related to Round Table Knights (I think Lamorak is both a buddy of Tristram and a cousin of Lancelot), and some Round Table folks breeze through (King Arthur himself included).

I just found this wonderful thumbnail summary page, written by someone with a sense of humor. (SPOILERS ON THE SITE)
I'd forgotten the big joust scene - yeah, plenty of Round Table folks there.

Oh, and there's a final scene between Tristram & Palomides that I think is necessary at the end of Book XII. (Starting at Chapter 11.)
Book XI is all about Galahad being born and setting up the Grail Quest (which properly starts in XIII) - read if you want, but it's long and has little to do with the conclusion of the Tristram story.
 
 
grant
14:08 / 22.10.02
Just bumping to remind folks - we've got nine days to get through the first book of the Tristram story.

Misbegotten or vexed births are quite a theme in these stories....
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:56 / 28.10.02
OK. So we're reading all the Tristram & Isolde stuff, right? Roughly 300 pages in the Vinaver? Just trying to get a handle on how much I've gotta spin through over the next couple of days...
 
 
Persephone
11:31 / 28.10.02
Eeeep. I am halfway...
 
 
grant
20:51 / 28.10.02
Well, I was thinking of starting the thread with the first Tristram book (Book VIII) and working along from there. So don't race up to the end and miss the fun stuff along the way.
So what we're covering is:
Book VIII
Book IX
Book X
Book XII (Chapter 11-end)

I think that's it, but I'm not positive.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:55 / 28.10.02
Have just started, and he's just done the "make me a knight! g'wan!" thing - yeesh. Got a little to go, methinks. Once I make that brainsnap back into olde englishe, though, I'll be fine - though I already am finding it far more dynamic than I remembered...
 
  
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