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Why no proof?

 
  

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XXII:X:II = XXX
16:16 / 03.10.02
That's kind of a liberal interpretation of the concept of telepathy, and I think the more standard definition includes some ability to either read thoughts or carry on a conversation. If we're to carry King's definition to its logical conclusion, the Internet is a far superior model of telepathy than is straight publishing, and there's no editorial middlemen acting as the spiritual medium.

Just to add to my earlier comments, I think anyone who has the intent of trying to "prove" the existence of servitors and avatars and any other visible manifestations of the supranormal is destined to failure in that regard. It betrays a distrust of one's own senses, when ultimate faith in one's perceptions is exactly what is required to learn to detect such phenomena in the first place.
 
 
The Falcon
00:23 / 04.10.02
What about talking to people? That's surely the ultimate telepathy - or showing them films, maybe?

The real/not real distinction is false; it is a sociolinguistic cage. I use what Bertie Russell might call 'public reality', because it's the easiest way to communicate with the majoriy of people, and practical (i.e. do not step on the end of that rake.)

'Reality is a mass hallucination.'

I'm sure that's in one of lovely Nigel Rees' 'Graffiti' books, actually.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:29 / 04.10.02
the Internet is a far superior model of telepathy than is straight publishing, and there's no editorial middlemen acting as the spiritual medium.

I dunno about better. More democratic, maybe. & editorial middlemen don't tend to interfere much with the message (the bunny w/the blue #5 on his back), but to help fine tune it -- twiddle with the frequency, if you like. It's the market interference I'd worry about, and that's as much a factor on the internet as in publishing. At any rate, Stephen King has more opportunity in time & space to transmit his message into people's minds than most ranters on the internet.

What about talking to people? That's surely the ultimate telepathy

At first I agreed with you, but I started thinking about how I think when I talk to someone versus how I think when I'm reading. Usually in a conversation, I'm more concerned with reading body language & getting my own message across. I rarely get a clear image, like that bunny with the blue #5 on its back, in a conversation. This kind of transmission works better with a passive frame of mind, such as reading or being part of an audience. And, of course, Stephen King reaches a wider audience, in time and space, than most public speakers.

So, is this proof of magic? Well, it could all be explained by sociology & psychology, and maybe biochemistry or something. But those sciences, resting on the assumptions I mentioned earlier, are rational in their construction but magical in their foundations. Now that I think of it, it's probably a good practice to consider magick the way scientists consider 'science' -- that is, NOT to believe in it. Rather, never to believe dogmatically in laws or results, but to leave everything open to question. Believe in method, in process.
 
 
Hieronymus
23:59 / 14.10.02
Wondering if anyone could render some advice on this topic. Recently I've encountered someone who seems very dogmatic in their rationalism to the point of zealotry. What started out as an innocuous question on the Books of Magic boards has escalated into a very heated and seemingly circular discussion about claims of proof vs. scientific evidence, et al.

My opinion on this is one of that of a third party. I see where both sides are coming from but I have no real way of approaching the magickal side, simply because I'm not a believer. But I do not find the insistence that magick is a fraud to be anything other than an indictment by certain individuals who are out to 'rescue the masses' from their own delusion. Ala the fervor of a James Randi.

What is your general opinion on this discussion? Does Food Eater Lad simply have a point which is being ignored?
 
 
illmatic
07:21 / 15.10.02
My opinion on the discussion is "oh well" - I can't be bothered to read it all. I appreciate Food Eater Lad's point - etc. It's sort of interesting to watch two people bang horns for a bit, but it's ultimately frustrating 'cos there's no give and each person retreats further and further into their own entrenched space. It can probably teach us a lot about the nature of our own beliefs, and it's something to recall the next time I find myself in the middle of a passionate arguement. For me these tend to be about politics rather than magick. It reminds me than arguement isn't about engagement and learning, it's about being right and the more you defend a position, the more you limit your options. I wouldn't be interested in having an arguement like this any more than I'd be interested in trying to convince a member of the flat esrth society the world is round.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:49 / 15.10.02
I read the whole thing. Suddenly I understand the hatred for Andrew Callo. How can you discuss anything, with or around a troll.

He is right no one offered proof. But that wasn't what the thread was about so who cares.

Oh and for me no "objective" "proof" yet. Some spooky shit tho'.

Has anyone pointed out the difficulties inherrent with the use of those terms yet?
 
  

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