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Ecstasy- Parkinson's Link Re-established.

 
 
grant
17:35 / 27.09.02
Public service message: Science Daily

Researchers at Johns Hopkins have found that doses of the popular recreational drug "Ecstasy" similar to those that young adults typically take during all-night dance parties cause extensive damage to brain dopamine neurons in nonhuman primates.

and

researchers gave squirrel monkeys three sequential doses of Ecstasy at three-hour intervals. Following this regimen, which is similar to that used by recreational Ecstasy users at all-night parties, they found that in addition to serotonin deficits, which the drug has been known to cause for some time, the monkeys unexpectedly developed severe, long-lasting brain dopamine deficits.
Then, using a variety of techniques to look at a region of the brain called the striatum, they found that 60 percent to 80 percent of the dopaminergic nerve endings were destroyed. To determine if these results were unique to squirrel monkeys, the researchers performed the experiments again, this time with baboons, and obtained similar findings of neuronal injury.


And

The most troubling implication of our findings is that young adults using Ecstasy may be increasing their risk for developing parkinsonism, a condition similar to Parkinson's disease, as they get older," said George A. Ricaurte, M.D., associate professor of neurology at The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and lead author of the study.

Any thoughts?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:48 / 27.09.02
This strikes me as the same old E-causes-long-term-brain-damage stuff that has irregularly been coming out for at least ten years. There was a funny U75 post about "Ecstacy causing memory loss in researchers" - "they keep bringing out the same article".

There seems to be little solid evidence that it causes damage in humans; even the animal trials are dubious, considering we don't actually know how neurotransmitters work with any real certainty (an idea that's definitely been reinforced from working on anti-depressants for the last three years).

And on the streets, what difference is it going to make? It's going to be dismissed, with reasonable justification, as just another bit of moral-panic propaganda. People just don't see regular E-users degenerating into Parkinsons-afflicted depressives. Basically it will make no difference at all.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:27 / 27.09.02
There seems to be little solid evidence that it causes damage in humans

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'll have more later once I've spoken to a couple doctors I know, but I'm pretty positive I remember my doctor looking horrified when I told her I'd been taking E recently and her telling me that not a single month goes by that she doesn't find some psyciatric journal with a new report dealing with E and the whole ass-load of side-effects it causes.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:17 / 28.09.02
There are plenty of reports, but the ones I've actually read have been pretty sketchy to be frank, and none of the doctors I know have been particularly concerned. It also doesn't seem to tie up with certainly my perception of reality and probably the perception of people who will be taking it (I don't like pills, personally). Given the fairly heavy use that's been going on over the past decade or so in the population, you'd expect psychiatric wards to now be flooded with E casualties.

*thinks*

Okay, we have a lot of depressed people around in the age groups that might have taken the stuff. But we also have a lot in the groups who are pretty unlikely to have. And the paradigm has changed so much recently that I'd say it's hard to compare back to previous generations on the same terms. Society's also changed somewhat.

You know, a view from the "shop floor" on this would be handy...
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:54 / 28.09.02
Ganesh is the resident elephant-headed psyciatrist. Perhaps he will grace us with his divine input.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
19:00 / 28.09.02
personally, i have read all the info about the damage it can cause, I've also taken MDMA on multiple occasions, I've never had any weird lingering effects, and the people I know who have been users for a long time dont exhibit any problems that I know of.

I think it's one of those "possible, but not as likely as we make it out to be" scenarios.

But i stopped taking E anyway, because I dont want to fund the terrorists...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:42 / 28.09.02
Oh. I thought this was going to be about that guy who occasionally pops eccies to control his pre-existing Parkinson's.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:00 / 28.09.02
This just sounds like another push to not legalise more drugs. Why give the government more work to do? They can't even handle what's necessary right now, never mind debating the de-criminalisation and down-grading of class A's again. Let's accept they're bad for us, take them anyway because we're young and all have sub-conscious desires to die, and laugh at the media obsession with finding they're unhealthy again.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:30 / 29.09.02
...and the people I know who have been users for a long time dont exhibit any problems that I know of.

I know a guy who seriously used to take a pill every night. He still takes a roll about three times a week, and he's pretty much permanently stupid now. But who knows what that means. I never knew him before he started taking E, so maybe he was like this all his life.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:38 / 29.09.02
The problem is that taking any sort of drug that fucks with your perception of the world on a regular basis is going to cause some severe behavioural problems. I mean, we all know hardcore smokers who seem unable to actually think about anything, or acid heads who wibble on about their "insights" all the time. Furthermore, if you're always on a cycle of coming up or coming down, you're going to be either high or miserable. It's deciding whether there's a long-term effect or not that's the problem, and whether it's down to that particular drug... given that most people are "poly-drug (ab)users" these days. (I used to love saying, when I'd had a spliff and a beer, that I was on a "lethal cocktail of drink and drugs").

When I was in Edinburgh, there was a study going on to test the effects of E, except they were having a lot of trouble because they couldn't find enough people who didn't take E but took all the other recreational drugs that clubbers do. I failed to do my bit for science on that occasion.
 
 
grahamwell
11:54 / 30.09.02
There's a good comment on this report here.

In summary, the researchers claim that they had simulated a normal human recreational dose. This dose killed two out of their ten test subjects ... yet they carried on as if a 20% death rate was somehow normal.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:58 / 30.09.02
Yeah, I noticed that too.

From the Erowid rewview:

Deaths #
Of the 10 non-human primates the researchers report giving this regimen to, 2 died immediately, and 2 others exhibited symptoms of such extreme physical distress that the researchers stopped the experiment in the middle and chose not to give these two monkeys the third injection.

This result (20% fatalities and 20% severe physical distress) should be a very clear indicator that these doses were not equivalent to normal recreational human doses. The researchers' inter-species dose extrapolation is clearly flawed.
[my emphasis] In the United States, Baggott et al. estimated that the number of Emegency Department (ED) visits by Ecstasy-users is currently between 2.9 to 3.6 per 10,000 ecstasy-use sessions (Baggott 2001). These are 3 in 10,000 emergency-room visits, not deaths. An Australian study estimated that there were around 11 ED visits per 10,000 use sessions. According to Baggott, "Deaths relating to ecstasy use are poorly documented in the US. Gore (1999) estimated that 0.21 ecstasy-related deaths per 10,000 illicit users occurred annually in England from 1995-96 and 0.87 ecstasy-related deaths per 10,000 illicit users occurred annually in Scotland from 1995-97."
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:26 / 30.09.02
Ah, and Erowid also give a link to a Time article about the phenomenon I mentioned in an earlier post:

Ecstasy's Dividend: Has a Parkinson's disease sufferer, who can only find relief—albeit temporarily—in an illegal drug, accidentally discovered a reliable treatment?
 
 
cusm
19:10 / 30.09.02
I'm less certain about the permanent damage bit. I haven't had any in over a year, and I've noticed over time a gradual increase in my cognitive functions to where I'm happy with them again. When I took it regularly, it made me quite foolish, and noticably unable to perform as well as I could before my binging on it. I absolutely felt stupid after awhile, and that bothered me to no end. Time and healing having passed, I'm about back to normal again. So, at least from my personal experience with it (weekend use for about 2 years) it does damage, but you will recover if you give it a long enough rest.
 
 
The Monkey
19:35 / 30.09.02
To the best of my understanding...admittedly on the basis of a biochem course and two neuroscis, The concern about the burning out of dopamine receptors in the basal ganglia (which coordinates much of our movement, and is the region the is damaged in Parkinson's) is not a matter of short effects that generate Parkinsonian symptoms. The monkeys etc. they are dosing, then sectioning the brains of aren't displaying symptoms - they're just a means of demonstrating in corpore that MDMA sticks to dopamine receptors in the basal ganglia in a fashion that they don't come out (thus destroying the receptor).

Given the levels of neuron pathway redundance in the brain, a few dead dopaminergic neurons aren't that big a deal a youth. The risk is the the basal ganglia experiences natural attrition of DA-controlled motor neurons over time, meaning that frequent MDMA users are at great risk in later life for early or severe Parkinson's.

Now the short terms impact of MDMA is the fashion in which it tinkers with serotonin levels, which I can no longer remember the mechanism for...I can ask my advisor, though, and report back: she's crazy into the study of psychotropics that mimic NTs.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
01:04 / 02.10.02
I know a guy who seriously used to take a pill every night. He still takes a roll about three times a week, and he's pretty much permanently stupid now. But who knows what that means. I never knew him before he started taking E, so maybe he was like this all his life

of course there is the possibility of an every night user of any drug having innate stupidity, but thats for another thread...
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
03:02 / 09.10.02
It will obviously become evident with time whether or not there is an ecstacy/parkinson's link, as probably the biggest test-group ever formed will no doubt show. There are many chronic ecstacy users/abusers (myself included) from 10 to 15 years ago who are now in their early to mid thirties, who *must* be beginning to exhibit the long term effect of such use, if any such effects actually exist.

Personally, I, along with a large group of friends, took at least one pill each week for about 7 years. (eeek - that's a lot of pills!!) I still occasionally take the odd one on special occasions and must admit to feeling no signs of depression, moodiness or any other psychological or neurological imbalance. Yet. Neither have any of my friends - we tend to be a confident, outgoing and successful bunch.

That's not to say that these symptoms aren't going to manifest themselves some years down the line as our brains get ever more worn down. I must admit to being slightly worried about these reports, but I suppose only time will tell.

Whichever way, I will never regret those times; the thought of those heady nights in a packed Hacienda, dancing on the stage and looking down, beaming from ear to ear, on a mass of friendly faces all beaming back at me is still enough to make my spine tingle and the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

You know, it was times like then that you felt like you were really *living* and that the world wasn't such a bad place, after all.

Or is that due to a neurotransmitter deficit?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:41 / 09.10.02
I have a friend who's about twenty-six now, he did acid for the first time when he was fourteen, takes everything under the sun. The only thing he's never touched is heroin. Mentally, he's insane, otherwise OK. Physically, he had to go for a heart scan, yep... I think that says it all. All that ecstatic movement has got to be bad for your body.
 
 
gridley
20:22 / 09.10.02
I've only done ecstasy a dozen times, so I doubt I'd be much of a test case. I did way too much acid for a couple years, though. Probably something like 300 hits.

I eventually had to stop because I wasn't making connections in my brain as fast as I used to. I'd be telling someone, for example, that I'd almost been hit by a car, and I wouldn't be able to think of the word car. Couldn't summon it up at all. Stuff like that.

But about five or six months after I stopped my brain started firing on all cylinders again (pretty much all at once).

The only long-term effect I've seen in myself is an over-sensitivity to light.
 
 
Fist of Fun
06:00 / 10.10.02
There are many chronic ecstacy users/abusers (myself included) from 10 to 15 years ago who are now in their early to mid thirties, who *must* be beginning to exhibit the long term effect of such use, if any such effects actually exist FlyingPiss

I am not so sure this is correct. Let's assume that taking ecstasy on a regular basis for 5 years makes you five times as likely to develop Parkinson's. If 10 in 1,000 would normally (i.e. not using ecstasy) develop it in their post-50's but only 1 in 1,000 develop it in the 30-50 age range then it's very unlikely that anything short of a major study could possibly identify such an increase in chances. Certainly not a group of friends of, say, 20. You would still only have a 0.5% chance of developing it which would mean that statistically the entire group still has a 35% chance of not having a case develop - and that's during the entire 20 year period of 30-50.

All that is assuming that Parkinson's affects 1 in 1,000 for the 30-50 age range. I have seen estimates that it affects 1 in 1,000,000 overall, so I suspect that the figure is significantly smaller in reality.
 
 
Fist of Fun
09:32 / 13.10.02
Just thought - estimates of 1 in 1,000,000 are clearly rubbish. That would mean the entire population of America only had 250 cases.
 
 
Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey
12:46 / 13.10.02
[b]There are many chronic ecstacy users/abusers (myself included) from 10 to 15 years ago who are now in their early to mid thirties, who *must* be beginning to exhibit the long term effect of such use, if any such effects actually exist [/b]

I wasn't just referring to Parkinson's when I said this, I was also referring to *any* long term effects of Ecstacy use, such as depression, moodiness, etc...
 
 
grant
20:43 / 01.12.03
Well, they've found a genetic link (and thus a potential cure) for one of MDMA's unpleasant side-effects:

Mice that lack a key protein stay cool after ingesting ecstasy. Therapies to treat potentially fatal overheating associated with the club drug may follow.

 
 
Elbereth
03:35 / 02.12.03
IN SCIENTIFIC publishing, as in surgery, retraction is a traumatic but revealing process. This week, George Ricaurte and his colleagues at Johns Hopkins University, in Baltimore, were on the operating table. Almost a year ago, this team of neuroscientists published a paper in Science which showed that methylene-dioxy-methamphetamine—a recreational drug more commonly known as Ecstasy—killed off brain cells that produce and respond to dopamine. This chemical is a neurotransmitter (a molecule that carries signals from one nerve cell to another). A lack of it is involved in Parkinson's disease, which causes tremors and twitches. The paper sparked debate both in the laboratory, where many other researchers questioned its methods and findings, and in the wider world, where the opponents of Ecstasy seized on the results as further proof of the drug's dangerous effects.

In the current issue of Science, however, Dr Ricaurte and his team retract these results. The reason is painfully simple: they injected the wrong drug into the monkeys in their experiments. The mistake apparently emerged when the researchers tried, and failed, to reproduce their findings, and also tried to extend them by feeding Ecstasy to monkeys rather than injecting it, in order to mimic more closely the way humans take the drug. When they realised they were using a different batch of Ecstasy for this work, they went back to look at their older supply. Unfortunately, the original vials had been discarded, but they did have vials of another drug, labelled as methamphetamine (a similar, but not identical, molecule), delivered by the same supplier on the same day. When tested, these vials were found to contain Ecstasy, not methamphetamine, which suggests that the labels had been switched.

Dr Ricaurte retracts the findings of his original study (re-published by MDMA.net) in the current issue of Science. See also the work of Charles Grob and Andy Parrott.

Further proof came through animal testing. Although, like the vials, the monkeys used in the original experiments were long gone, some of their brains had been frozen for further research. When these were analysed, they were found to contain methamphetamine, not Ecstasy.

From
The Economist
Sep 11th 2003
http://mdma.net/toxicity/mixup.html

Has this been brought up?
 
 
grant
15:54 / 02.12.03
Yeah, there's another MDMA thread just on that business. It has "mainstream media" in the title, I remember.
 
 
Mister Snee
17:28 / 02.12.03
Brilliant!

I was told that very story last weekend at 4:00AM by a strange man on E with weird teeth. I wasn't sure if I believed him or not.

Zoinks!
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:49 / 06.12.03
Yahoo News this morning:

Cocaine and Ecstasy Cause DNA Mutation

Cocaine and ecstasy not only cause addiction and raise the risk of cancer but also provoke genetic mutations, Italian scientists said Friday.

"Cocaine and ecstasy have proved to be more dangerous than we had imagined," said Giorgio Bronzetti, chief scientist at the National Center for Research's (CNR) biotechnology department. "These drugs, on top of their toxicological effects, attack DNA provoking mutations and altering the hereditary material. This is very worrying for the effects it could have on future generations," he said.

The CNR report, which took more than three years to complete, said animal tests had shown a direct relationship between ecstasy and cocaine intake and the effects on DNA. "In other words, the longer the time frame of drug consumption, the greater the damage to DNA," Bronzetti said.


...I didn't think drugs could alter DNA... that seems very odd...
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
00:46 / 08.12.03
Wasn't it said that LSD caused chromosomal damage that could lead to mutation at one point? I believe that this was a big scare in the 70s, later disproved.

I would be sceptical of any report, no matter how prestigious the source, that mentions addiction to ecstasy.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:02 / 08.12.03
'hereditary material' - they're saying it knackers sperm and eggs, not the DNA of the user..

Like, wow, that's news. Alcohol doing nothing of the sort.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:55 / 11.12.03
Yeah, and I wonder how much of each substance was being fed to the animal test subjects in order to cause the damage. "Oh , look-- if we stick this compressed air hose in a rat's mouth and turn it on, the rat explodes! Hey, everyone! Stop breathing! Air makes you explode!"
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
20:28 / 18.12.03
I have no moral stance on this subject. I have done, have loved it, have
not become addicted to it, have been bored by it, depressed after it and
moved right on to the next subject.
BUT
I have a client who is one of the leading phd's currently working on X studies
in London(along with human trials using ketamine) and through enough conversation
with her about her opinions and findings on using X , I think I will stay clear of it from
now on. There is apparently a lot that cannot even be published because of stupid
booracracy and blah blah yacketysmackety lawsuits which would keep more of us off
these drugs than the gov't is really willing to let go of. They like us buying and doing
illegals- keeps them in business and all. Keeps us stoopid enough not to think too much
about why.
The health implications are really really scary. The things that the Italian and German
French researchers are allowed to be finding out may get published locally a lot sooner than
any info will be allowed into public realm here in the UK or my own dear amerika. But it won't
matter. All the double blind/double bluff misinformation which has gone before concerning
drugs will keep the skeptics high and the disbelievers higher.

Plus the world is shit most days so we would mostly all rather be high at any cost.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:27 / 18.12.03
Amen to that.
 
 
■
23:10 / 21.12.03
Anyone who publishes a report trying to pass off damage in a report as "damage" deserves a kicking.
Scare quotes are for liars and Barbara Ellen.
 
 
medicine man
11:19 / 14.03.04
what i dont understand is that there is now a generation of heavy ecstasy users who should be showing these side effects of ecstacy use. Of course there won't be the qualification of dose dependent effects that come from administering the drug during the study, but there must be enough of a sample to determine how many of those people who have taken MDMA end up with Parkinson's, schizophrenia, la la. These studies show that MDMA can cause some damage in the short term but many also show this damage is reversable.

Lilly nowhere, i'm not sure what your friend has told you but with all due respect, it is absolute nonsense.

I would also like to point out if i may, that Ketamine has been used clinically for over 20 years in humans with a tremendous body of research behind it.
 
  
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