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Drugs as Tools

 
  

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iconoplast
06:48 / 02.10.02
Here's a simpler version, I guess, of my question:

Do any of you doubt the efficacy of drugs in spiritual practice and, if you do, how do you quell those doubts?

And, while I'm at it, is there anyone who does not use drugs as part of their spiritual practice?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
07:23 / 02.10.02
I do not use drugs as part of my spiritual practice.

It is my belief that Ethnogens work by triggering structures and chemicals already present in the brain. In some cases this can lead to an opening of the doors of perception. But although drugs may be sufficient for an temporary experience they are not necessary. Nor are they sufficient for a permanent realignment of the senses. If Ethnogens work the way I currently believe they do than I can replicate any results by other techniques, Bio feedback and breathing exercises for example. One distinct advantage of "drugs" is that they can show you a brain state quickly, without all the work that the other techniques require. You can then work your way back to the state now that you know what it feels like.

It is for this reason that I am considering experimenting with DMT and Salvia. For preliminary mapping of those brainstates.

Personally, I don't like the framing of this debate as about "drugs" that term has a distinctly negative connotation in western culture. Terms that are that strongly connotated tend to have an emotianally evocative nature that in many ways impedes rational discussion.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:51 / 02.10.02
I don't know about spirituality/magick, but yr good old Nan has had some fantastic paradigm busting/revelatory experiences under the influence of psychedelics. I remember the fantastically soulfucking realization that I am, in part, a plant, hitting me while taking a piss loaded on mushrooms: my spine ascending towards the light between my eyes - I understood what the buddhists mean when they compare the awakened mind to the flowering lotus....mind opening, filled with awareness. The inner sun of nous, the outer sun: both one. Their light is one.

And I realised the earth sat up...and I thought about those things under the water that straddle the line between plant and animal and their spine-y stems culminating in a flowery head.

Oh shit. I'm the alien.

God, it was like that evolutionary-line experience RAW prattles about in Cosmic Trigger.

I still can't talk about it properly.

But, whatever you want to call it - magic, spirit or bullshit - something big and heavy and profound happened to my head that night - and I won't forget it.

And I think that's the point.
 
 
illmatic
12:24 / 02.10.02
Nice post, Nan.
To answer your question, iconoplast: Well, broadly speaking I doubt everything I read about magick/mystcism - not that I'm a disbleiver I just think there's tons of rubbish written. I think this is also true of stuff about drugs, perhaps I'd be even more cautious here because they are such powerful substances. I doubt the effiacy of drugs or anything else that promises permenant change, that doesn't encourage you to become more critical or use your own experience.
I don't use drugs as part of my regular practice, partly for reasons given above, "familarity breeds contempt"partly, because I don't have access that much, I work full-time etc etc. I do take 'em recreationally/occasionally though, and I'd be open to the possibility that one of these experiences might tip over into something "spritual" intentionallly or otherwise, just like our ggod old Nan says above.
 
 
illmatic
12:26 / 02.10.02
By "reasons given" I mean my post, further up.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
14:59 / 02.10.02
In terms of the question of whether there is anything to be gained by repeated drug use, especially in light of whether or not addicition has become a factor, I find that in addition to cultivating a sense of when it might be appropriate in one's life to do hallucinagens, one should also be at a recognizably different point in one's life so as to have something new to "talk about" with the hallucinagen. Which may be exactly why I've not done so in four years: although I was out of school, I hadn't really landed in any sort of situation I'd call permanent. Now (with the magickal nudge folks gave me) I'm in a career-type job, which may be why more and more I get to feeling like it's time for a little chat.

It's a pity psychedelics aren't more mainstream in religion; I would have been much more into my bar mitzvah if I'd been tripping.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:32 / 03.10.02
This thread was exactly what I was looking for, really...

I did 'e' for the first time a few months ago in England, and for the first time here about 3 weeks ago. This is the only 'drug' I've done other than pot.
At the same time, I re-read Illuminatus, Schrodinger's Cat and read the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. I then started cleaning the university library shelves of Wilson, Leary, Castaneda, and reading the Magick archives a bit, looking for threads on magick&drugs/music/e/castaneda, started doing sigils again.

I haven't made it that far yet(1 Wilson, 1/2 Leary so far), but I find the reading a bit distant but exciting as I have never done psychedelics. But reading up a lot, the experience beforehand will hopefully give me more to work with when I do take them? I am quite excited by all this.

In the Kool-Aid Acid Test, the book ends with Kesey and the Pranksters telling everyone to stop with the LSD and learn to get there without the drug. As far as I've read, this seems like a good point. Having the prior experience can let you know where it is you're trying to get later, without the drugs?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
06:03 / 03.10.02
I think a part of the conversation being glossed over is the part involving the... well.. the magickal aspects of using the drug. Not necessarily where it takes you, but your communion with it as either a)ritual or c)consciouness seperate from your own, or both?

For exapmle, Salvia (since it is a common topic 'round here). Salvia is considered by many who use it as either a) a conciousness into itself or b) an extention or gateway to a consciousness seperate from themselves. Another example (although one I'm sure less people have experience with) is Ayruhsca Vine. The Vine is considered to be a consciousness in and of itself.

Is there 'validity' in these esperiences and philosophies or are they just using a crutch to get somewhere they could without drugs?
 
 
The Natural Way
07:29 / 03.10.02
Oh yes, I've spent many a trip mulling over the fact that I was interfacing with an alien intelligence. Had a Halloween party a few years ago where some friends decided it might be fun to deck the walls with genuine demonic sigils and cheeky pics of Cthulhu, Nyarlothep and the gang....as I came up I could feel them tearing through...tentacled...many-eyed....molluscinsect.....reptile....the old ones...the forgotten. There's a plantbugbeast hooked into my brain-stem wearing my skin and thinking my thoughts!

The Outer Church completely. Poor old Boy.

And then there's the faeries with their hats of flyagaric (sp?), and their saucy tricks and they steal us away to...elsewhere. Who/what do you think the "little people" are anyway?
 
 
illmatic
14:52 / 03.10.02
I think that this is a great thread, some really intelligent points being articulated.
I just want to focus in on one specific point that keeps coming up - namely that drugs "get you somewhere"/act as a shortcut and then you can "get there yourself". My objection to this point is that I don't know if people are speaking from their own experience or not. I'm aware that this arguement is a commoon "meme" in conversations about drugs and sprituality, and I wonder if people are just passing it on - "virus carriers" - without giving it full consideration?
I mean, I don't deny that drugs may be useful/ suprising/positive/numinous/whatever, I just don't agree with this whole "they got me there then I found it myself" point of view. Can anyone give a specific, concrete example from their own personal history where this has happened? Or are we just repeating a a "drugs dogma"?
For me, the point isn't to discover a "place" that I can then get to afterwards, it's to have, and to hopefully enjoy and learn from that specific experience. The main thing I've learnt from this overall is that my brain can go some damn strange places. But I can't say I've ever entered comparable states without drug use.
I would go further and say that there seems to be an ethic at work behind this meme that implies drugs use is okay if any revelation gained therein is somehow usuable when straight. Doesn't this imply that it ISN'T okay at other times - that psychedelic/ecstatic experience for it's OWN SAKE is somehow not okay/not spritual?
Any thoughts?
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
16:01 / 03.10.02
I've tried to be careful in my language regarding this topic because I do recognize the potential for bullshitting oneself one way or the other using nothing more nor less potent than choice of terminology. I consider the hallucinagenic experience a fracturing of the ego, in which your rational, workaday self gets presented with aspects of the self it normally screens out. These monodialogues can take the form of simple epiphanies, or they can manifest visually as entities or environments. This neither makes them more nor less real than anything else you might encounter in your life, but their manifestation is the doing of the drug. Does the drug contain consciousness or intelligence? Are you being somehow shifted out of your normal reality into something else? Are these entities "real" but just out of perception? These are all interesting philosophical questions, and probably rhetorical ones, too; if such a thing were quantifiable in such a way that there'd be little room for doubt and not subjective, they wouldn't be what they are. These are not issues you need concern yourself with while in the moment; operate as though this were a legitimate experience however you cut it and try to make it constructive without also trying to control the trip. Proceed with caution and respect but not fear, leave your expectations at the door, don't do it alone OR in a crowd, and make it as valuable as you know how. The drug is neither your friend nor your enemy; it is what it is. Ultimately, the responsibility for everything is left to you.
 
 
cusm
21:11 / 03.10.02
I write from my experience, and I can say that there are states of mind I have reached on drugs that I have found useful to attain on my own later. For intance, profoundly deep states of meditation and transcendental bliss that awakened me to much of what all that rot was about. Or having my psychic senses cranked up so high that I could perceive things on that level much more than I could normally, and using that as a guide improve my abilities at working with psi, second sight, tele/empathy and related abilities back in normal space. Once your eyes are opened, its easier to know what to look for when it comes to that sort of thing. Magick in general for me has improved after experiencing it at high volume. So, there are a few things I've taken some shortcuts to with the drugs.

The biggest thing however, is having used them to work out difficult abstract concepts of metaphysics. Cranked up on speed, E, and LSD, its like my brain is supercharged, like my IQ is about 50 points higher. From there, delve into deep conversations for hours with my fellows on metaphysics, mathematics, psychology and magick, and we're all making a lot of progress. I've gotten a lot of work done that way that has accelerated my development substantially. I find that many of the conclusions I've drawn in that state are in line with others before me, which I find as a great affirmation. For awhile I was very anoyed, actually, that every time I came up with a super idea I'd discover that someone Hoffsteader, Crowley, or Lau Tsu had already beaten me to it. But lately I just find these things to be affirmations. I read something profound, realize that I scribbled something like it down in a notebok once while triping, and it validates the experience. Like a signpost that I'm still on the right track. So yea, I've gotten a thing or two out of my drug experiences
 
 
iconoplast
06:06 / 14.03.03
Stone Mirror's upset at the quality of our threads, so I decided to look for the one I started that I liked best. Which I'd forgotten about. And Wondered what I'd decided about the question since.

So, right. Drugs and Magic. Magic Drugs. Are Drugs Magic? (Whether Magic is a Drug would e a different thread).

I can't do drugs anymore. Or won't, because the price tag attatched is high enough that I can't imagine anything worth more. So. Am I cut off from some segment of the spiritual realm?

Illmatic had a nice question - we all say that drugs took us to a place that we could later get to without them. While I can see this being true for "body-drugs" or whatever (White powders, pills, stuff like that), I don't think I've ever hallucinated as wildly since I took Mescaline back in High School.

All I've really gotten out of drugs is an appreciation for how... how different my perception can be. That there is, indeed, another way to interpret things. That, and a lingering apophenic voice somewhere in the back of my head.

But... I don't know - I'm sort of muddled in my thinking here, but it's something along the lines of :
If drugs are "spiritually valid"* then the state they bring you to should be reachable by other means.
But some of the states we reach with drugs aren't reachable without them.
So drugs aren't "valid"
But they're useful demonstrations, object lessons in opening yourself to other possibilities of perception.
They also may have other effects I don't know about - e.g. Machine Elves and DMT Jungle Dream Telepathy
They're often singly, and almost always cumulatively, addictive and I don't trust them.


...don't know where I'm going, here. Just... I guess I see drugs kicked around this forum a lot, and a lot of this is my desire to make it clear that not everyone reading this forum thinks taking drugs is a good idea.

I'm not, though, really convinced it's a bad one. But I'm still curious as to why they're so associated with whatever style of magic it is this place is about.

* - used in place of "true". Don't really know what the appropriate term to put between the quotes is, but hope you all understand anyway.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:42 / 14.03.03
I for one have extremely little experience with drugs and don't use them as part of my practice currently but I see no reason to preclude there use in the future or in general.

I don't buy that there is any state that can be induced by drugs that can not be induced by other means. I see drugs as working by triggering some perceptive system of the {body, mind, soul}. This doesn't mean that the inducing of a state of {body, mind, soul} without the drug or substance would not prove too difficult to be practical.

Also I think the use of the word "drug" itself is misleading. In our cultural milieu drug is a dirty word. It is also fairly inaccurate to discribe most of the substances that people would use for magickal uses. Is something that is not addictive a "drug"?

Lastly, for now, a state being replicatable without drugs should not be the only way to judge if the state is {valid, true, usefull}.

Iconoplast, when I need to use a word I am unsure of I come up with some alternates and swirly braket them. It is a set notation form.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:43 / 14.03.03
{drug, sacrement, helper, chemical, plant, ally, substance}
 
 
LVX23
17:48 / 14.03.03
First, I agree with Nietzsch that the terminology is erroneous and leads to problems. In an age of Drug Wars and Drug Stores (to quote somebody, I forget), it's very important to clearly define what it is exactly that we're talking about. The compounds which I consider personally beneficial when I think of "drugs & magic" are LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, other tryptamine derivatives, the Harmala alkaloids, certain phenethylamines like Mescaline (2CB, 2CT7, MDMA as well), salvia, and perhaps the thujones, like Absynth. This is about the extent of my experience. I also akcnowledge that others may find value in compounds not listed above, though personally I've never had a very good relationship with most powders or narcotics, beyond utilitarian.

not everyone reading this forum thinks taking drugs is a good idea.


Even those of us who feel a strong relationship with some of these substances understand that they are not for everyone. Furthermore, their use should be explored by novices with the utmost respect and safety.

They're often singly, and almost always cumulatively, addictive and I don't trust them.

I disagree strongly on this point, especially when applied to the compounds listed above. Addiction is generally a property of the individual and not the compound. However, some substances have a stronger tendency to evoke addiction in the individual, and it is this benchmark that I usually go by to determine if a substance is worth pursuing as a magickal ally. Note that all of the psychedelics pretty universally regulate their own addiction. In other words, the experiences tend to be of such magnitude that the user is happy to come down and usually requires a good amount of processing time before they are willing to return to that place. This is the root of the shamanic experience - an experience of profoud depth where the traveller experiences both Heaven and Hell and is left to rebuild themselves from the ground up afterwards.

Using psychedelic or empathogenic compounds within a magickal setting, to re-enforce ritual, can be effective when used in small doses. I find that a small dose allows me to dip into the spaces represented by these allies, while still being able to focus the ritual. But the space lends depth and color to the ritual as each of these substances represents a unique field or channel within the collective (sub)consciousness of the planet and beyond. At larger doses, the magician is somewhat at the will of the ally, so the utility turns from one of ritual to one of Vision - instead of wading in the waters, one has dove in headfirst.

I tend to think of these compounds as keys to specific Gates they gaurd. The Gate of LSD opens into a different space than the Gate of Psilocybin, or the Gate of Mescaline. This uniqueness is an inherent part of the compound and how it affects neurochemistry, but it is also a feature of the history of that compound's relationship with the humans that have used it for decades, centuries, millenia.

The shamanic path recognizes the ally, it recognizes the Gate or Key presented to the user and seeks to open the pathway into these spaces. For the shaman, Peyote is not simply a drug, nor just an experience of hallucination or seeing the malleability of reality. Peyote represents a being, an entelechy, a plant consciousness capable of educating the shaman, of showing Hir the right way of living, of immersing Hir completely into the world of mind and spirit tended by the ally, and reconnecting Hir with those who have entered into that communion before.

In this respect there is never any question of the state being "valid". It is absolutely just as real as any other state. And if we believe that all of our reality is simply consciousness anyway - a fundamental tenent of both western and eastern mysticism - then the plant, or blotter, or resin, is simply a key that consciousness has left for itslef to gain insight back into the phenomenology of mind, to runite with the Absolute.

Ultimately, as with any experience, what you put into it will determine what you get out of it. But I could ramble on about this for ages. Suffice it to say that these compounds can be both: hallucinatory party drug, or transportational vision quest. Sometimes at the same time! While I agree strongly that these experiences are not for everyone (more likely only for a few), and that their use in any setting should be approached with caution and respect, I would not simply dismiss them as "drugs" nor would I regard the insights found in them as invalid.

Everything is a drug. TV, Big Macs, billboards, chocolate, Love. And what drug is more disorienting, transportational, addictive, potentially deadly, and sacred, than Love?
 
 
iconoplast
18:04 / 14.03.03
(chris23)
I disagree strongly on this point, especially when applied to the compounds listed above. Addiction is generally a property of the individual and not the compound.

Apologies - by 'cumulatively', I meant 'drugs seen as a total spectrum', as in, not one specific entheogen, but the entire array of 'things that fuck you up'. Like, the habit of taking drugs can be dangerous, even when the single drug in question isn't. You're right that it's probably a property of the individual, but it's a property that's only visible in hindsight, I think. And, for the record, people get addicted to LSD, too. They're psychotic by the time they stop, but even acid is a drug of choice for someone out there.

I would not simply dismiss them as "drugs" nor would I regard the insights found in them as invalid.

Well, I'm not dismissing them. Honestly. Or, I'm trying not to. I have this really profound mistrust of drugs, and I'm trying to talk around or through it, to see if that same mistrust is maybe cutting into other places in my headspace - i.e., is that mistrust affecting my spiritual life?

I mean... I've done a lot of drugs. Enough that I have a hard time distinguishing between which states were achieved with which drugs, in most cases. And while I used them in an exploratory framework at times, at other times I didn't. And often my intent with regards to the spiritual outcome of the experience had little to do with the outcome - wanted a new experience, got fucked up and giggly. Wanted to get fucked up for a party, ended up alone with myself in the corner.

Actually, what you said about using them in a ritual setting, and in small doses, does make a lot of sense. Maybe that's the issue I'm grappling with - my head is so inundated by foreign messages just by living in the mediasphere of modern life that without a ritual space cleared around me, I felt I needed a larger dose to feel the drug. Maybe in a ritual context, a drastically reduced dose would have functioned differently, allowing me to exercise the kind of control over the experience that you talk about.

Righteous.
 
 
gingerbop
18:32 / 14.03.03
Drugs bring enlightenment? PLEASE tell me that a singing toilet wont be the most enlightened moment of my life...
 
 
cusm
19:36 / 14.03.03
And, for the record, people get addicted to LSD, too. They're psychotic by the time they stop...

Personal experience, or just conjecture? Its prety well known that with repeated use of LSD the hallucinatory effects diminish drasticly. One builds up a pretty good tolerance to the stuff after awhile. As example, by the time Hendrix choked on his own vomit, he was eating sheets at a time. Note also that it was the booze that ultimately killed him here, too. I've also only known heavy users to become dull and fried, not psychotic, and I've known more than a few. It really doesn't work that way, unless the person is psychotic to begin with.

Rereading this thread again has been interesting for me. I've been largely clean for the past year, done with the heavy weekend partying I was doing in the previous years. My perspective now is, having done them all to excess and come back, that very little is needed in the way of substance to get to where I want to that way. Pot alone is enough to give me a major boost now, and not much of that either, nor terribly often. On the few times I've tripped, a single dose is enough to stir me like I want, giving me the energy and ability without the hallucinations or distortion of thought. I don't really "trip" anymore like I once did, but I do benefit from the power it can lend. Once mastered, they do become an ally, but I have to admidt its not easy to get there intact. You have to respect every use as a magickal sacriment, or you will be the one used, not the other way around. These tools are sharp, and it is easy to hurt yourself with them learning their ways.
 
 
Quantum
23:27 / 14.03.03
These tools are sharp, and it is easy to hurt yourself with them learning their ways. Too true. And yet, without drugs I would never have known some states of mind were there to be experienced.
Drugs can be classified in many different ways- I classify them by how they are used, as 'running toward' drugs (used to expand consciousness and explore states of mind) and 'running away' drugs (used to dull pain, escape the world etc.)
It doesn't matter whether it's hash cakes or heroin, it's how you use it. (personally I avoid Opiates and seek out Hallucinogens occasionally, IMO numbing yourself isn't desirable- drugs should open your eyes not knock you out.)
 
 
LVX23
23:54 / 14.03.03
Illmatic wrote:
I just don't agree with this whole "they got me there then I found it myself" point of view.

As you pointed out, this a common meme among the spiritual community - this idea that drug experiences are either totaly invalid because the path is unnatural, or that these experiences should at best only point the way to achieving these states without the drug. Even Leary suggested that people evolve past LSD.

Firstly, what constitutes an unnatural path? And does the path even matter if the destination is valid? The implication is that even though I may be a well-balanced, insightful, compassionate, caring human, it doesn't matter since I got that way by using LSD & Psilocybin. This argument is very religious. "Well, you've led an amazing life of selflessness and giving, but we're sorry we can't let you into heaven because you were never baptised." The results are discounted because the path is unaccepted.

Secondly, so what if you can't get there naturally? I can't very well swim to Malaysia, but I'll sure as hell take advantage of modern air travel to get there. No matter how hard you try you're never going to meditate yourself to the same place you'd get by eating 3 or 4 grams of psilocybin. I don't think that getting there naturally is the point. Meditation has it's place and its adherents, as does yoga, fasting, and every other path. To paraphrase McKenna, just because sunsets are beautiful and sensual, that doesn't mean you should stop having sex. Both are very valid paths to apprehending the beauty of the Absolute. Enjoy as many as you can.

For me, the point isn't to discover a "place" that I can then get to afterwards, it's to have, and to hopefully enjoy and learn from that specific experience.

I agree. I go to concerts for a certain experience. I go to clubs for a certain experience. I mountain bike, read, write, draw, party, meditate, play, all for varying reasons. But the goal of each is to make me happy and to bring me more into accord with my world. For me, psychedelics are yet another path towards that harmony, just as valid and real as any other.

And they're much cheaper than psychotherapy!
 
  

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