BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


"Israel did *what*?" and other consequences of the Iraq situation.

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:23 / 25.09.02
Israel defies UN

Apparently not content with merely erecting the Berlin Wall II, Ariel Sharon has just refused to comply with a UN resolution ordering him to end his siege of Arafat's HQ 'immediately'. If Arafat was shaky before, he's rock solid now. Lack of action on this one won't go unnoticed by the Arab nations - and why should it? US Undersecretary of State John Bolton told the BBC not so long ago that 'if you believe in the UN, you must act to enforce UN resolutions'. It will be interesting to see him address this issue.

Yes, there is a link (Guardian Leader).

Instability: India/Pakistan - another great screwup in the making.
 
 
nutella23
15:56 / 25.09.02
Yeah, the news just gets more depressing by the day. Sometimes I'm almost reluctant to find out what's going on in the world as it seems to be souring my mood more and more of late. I keep expecting to hear that China is about to invade Taiwan, that would just complete the picture wouldn't it?

This whole issue of the US and Israel ignoring the UN when convenient is like a bad comedy of errors. The UN's decision counts "when we say it does", otherwise, if it interferes with our ambitions, it doesn't? I suppose I shouldn't be TOO suprised at this. I think the same thing happened back in the 80's when we were mining Nicaragua's harbours and got caught. Which of course led to UN condemnation, the Boland ammedment, and then the whole Iran/Contra affair. Never mind other incidents throughout the post WW2 era.

I do wonder though if the global community will "cave in" like it did during the first Gulf War. There were alot of ominous predictions made then that failed to pass. And other things transpired that no one foresaw (such as stopping short of invading Iraq, the Kurdish uprising, and a decade of sanctions, no-fly zones, and a war-of-attrition/containment thing). I suspect that there will be a short and nasty war, followed by much confusion and conflicting stories about what "really" happened, Saddam's inevitable replacement by some general or another, and continued misery for the Iraqi people. The Israelis and Palestinians will keep fighting regardless of what happens, with nothing definitive or constructive being accomplished (I guess you stick to what you're good at.)

I don't think the giant jihad will take place. Too many people in high places have a stake in keeing things pretty much the way they are. Not to mention the fact that nuclear war is bad for business. Of course, that's the rational side of my brain talking.

The irrational side of my brain is going "oh shit" on a frequent basis, and attempting to hide behind my spleen.

A good site for alternative news coverage: Guerilla News Network
 
 
nutella23
16:01 / 25.09.02
Hold on. I fucked up the spelling of the link. Here it is: Guerrilla News Network
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:02 / 25.09.02
And Putin's almost certainly gonna reduce Grozny to even smaller bits of rubble soon...

Way to go, Dubya. As precedent-setting goes, this was a meisterwerk.
 
 
sleazenation
11:16 / 26.09.02
To make an attempt at a posative spin - does anyone think the UK's (and other possible allies) backing of the US hardline on UN resolutions with regard to Iraq offer any hope whatsoever of prompting the US to take a much harder line on the UN resolutiuons that Israel is continuing to flout?
 
 
GreenMann
12:39 / 26.09.02
I agree with the US: we are dealing with a terrorist state with a massive arsenal of weapons of mass destruction led by a smirking mass-murderer who has already invaded+brutally occupied a neighbouring country, a rogue-state which has nothing but contempt for a pile of UN resolutions, led by a madman ready to launch a nuclear attack ... so when are we going to bomb Israel?
 
 
nutella23
17:39 / 26.09.02
Question: how does the UK decide on what action to take? Let me rephrase that...What kind of parliamentary procedure has to take place before British troops and planes start taking part in any Iraq invasion? It seems that there is far less support for an invasion in Britain than the US, so who votes on it and how is it discussed?
 
 
w1rebaby
18:17 / 26.09.02
As far as I am aware, there is no need for a vote and it is extremely unlikely that one will happen. Has been going around on the news recently; MPs have been graciously allowed to debate the matter in Parliament, but not to propose motions actually affecting it, and will basically get no say in any decision at all.

I'm not sure who does make the final decision, who has the finger on the button so to speak. It's not Parliament though.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
22:46 / 26.09.02
Give you a clue: if it barks like a poodle...
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:43 / 17.03.03
This is the most recent Israel thread I could find...

After reading the horrible news of the 24 hour deadline, there were these two articles that multiplied the horriblenes...

American killed in Gaza Strip trying to stop the Israel army from bulldozing a house.

An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories.

"She was standing on top of a pile of earth," said another activist, Richard Purssell, who was a few feet away. "The driver cannot have failed to see her. As the blade pushed the pile, the earth rose up. Rachel slid down the pile. It looks as if she got her foot caught. The driver didn't slow down; he just ran over her. Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again."


Sharon says Palestine will have the trappings of sovereignty, but no independence

Israel is to press George Bush to eliminate all reference to an "independent" Palestinian state from the US "road map" to a political settlement, which he promised on Friday to release soon.
Ariel Sharon's government has drawn up a list of amendments it wants made. They include the replacement of independence by "certain attributes of sovereignty".

It is not immediately clear what these are, but Mr Sharon has said what they do not include.

Israel, he says, will retain control of the Palestinian state's external security, borders, airspace, and underground water resources, and will have a veto over treaties with other countries.
 
 
Rev. Orr
05:40 / 17.03.03
Aren't the US going to hide behind the old 'but they're a totally different type of resolution. See, s'got a six in front of it not a seven. What do you mean we'll veto any other type of resolution?' argument? It's not as if they've been great supporters of an independant UN ever. Israel has always known that it can ignore international criticism and censure without repercussions. It's not going to change just because America is considering ading a UN figleaf to their naked desire for war.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:00 / 17.03.03
It was pointed out to me the other day that Sharon has one major card to play in this arena, and it's something of an ace. He's the United States' only reliable conduit to intelligence on the operations of Islamic terror groups. Mossad's bread and butter is the infiltration and control of such groups - as opposed to the CIA's Ivy League boys and girls, who are prone to assuming everyone in the world thinks like and American in foreign drag.

Panorama last night gave a pointer to the level of desperation in MI5 on this score, too - random approaches to anyone near a mosque... "I say, old chap, you look as if you might be a Mussulman, I wonder whether you'd like to do a bit of work for the Crown?' and other Kipling-esque discussions - so pronounced that there's now an information leaflet being produced telling you what to do and what your rights are if you're apoproached by MI5 or Special Branch.

And it's always nice to see how wrong you can be - Arafat 'rock solid' I said, but he's been forced to appoint a PM...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:02 / 17.03.03
Regarding the American girl killed... I (along with a friend of mine) have been, over the last few days, looking into the logistics of going over there ourselves in May (if airlines will indeed permit such stuff once war's almost certainly broken out). I'm not sure whether my resolve is strengthened or destroyed by this. It seems more like something I should do... less like something I would. I don't know. I'm doing some serious thinking.

An American gets killed- a fair bit of coverage. Each time 10, 20 Palestinians die, it's tucked away a few pages later. Any way you look at it, that's fucked.

God (any god) bless her, though. May she rest in peace.
 
 
Char Aina
11:06 / 17.03.03
i keep hearing the words 'bloody revolution' in my head...

but then we dont have those anymore, we have suicide bombers, and dirty bombs.

what can people of conscience do here?
as a pacifist i can not condone the taking of random human lives, but atthe same toime i am aware of the complete disregard for my opinion that britain and america's governments have.

does anyone have a plan for a course of action?

i respect and admire those who can go and stand in front of the fascists tanks, as you will make the world take more notice than they do of dead palestinians, but i am too attached to my life, and way too cowardly.

i feel helpless against the tide of stupidity.




also, i think it's the cabinet that will have the final say on any war plans, but that really means the prime minister.
 
 
Lilith Myth
13:39 / 17.03.03
From this morning's Washington Post:

The Israeli military forces were removing shrubbery in the border area and were approached by the protesters, according to a statement released by the military tonight. Troops ordered the demonstrators to move back, the statement said.

"An initial inquiry indicates that an Israeli bulldozer apparently accidentally ran over a protester," the statement continued, adding, "The windows of the bulletproof bulldozer are very small and the visibility is very limited, and the bulldozer operator did not see the woman." The military "expresses sorrow" and is investigating the incident, the statement said.

"It's possible they [the protesters] were not as disciplined as we would have liked," Thom Saffold, a founder and organizer of the International Solidarity Movement, said in a telephone interview from the group's base in Ann Arbor, Mich. "But we're like a peace army. Generals send young men and women off to operations, and some die."


It's obviously tragic when anyone dies in such circumstances, but it's worth noting two important points: (1) soldiers driving an armored bulldozer have limited visibility because of the narrow window, and (2) One of the ISM founders admits the protesters might not have been as disciplined in their protest as they should have been.

Additionally, most media reports failed to mention that the IDF bulldozer was looking for smuggling tunnels. Instead, reports described the house sympathetically as "the home of a Gazan doctor."

As Stoatie said, whatever her politics, may she rest in peace.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:52 / 17.03.03
Mind you, if the windows in my car were so small that I couldn't tell when I was about to hit an American, I'm prepared to bet real cash money that sooner or later somebody would complain. Did they find the tunnels? Then at least her death will not have been in vain...

I think Nick is to a very great extent on the money here - the Pakistani intelligence services are the other outlet for infiltration of Muslim terrorist organisation, but they are not as well trained and are far more likely to be counterinfiltrated than Israeli intelligence.

Also, of course, Israel is still a broadly secular and broadly democratic state, and as such the sort of thing that apparently should generally be encouragedin the Middle East. If Iraq gets a democratic government after Operation Desert Whoopass, I imagine it will receive similar indulgence when it uses force on its unsettled ethnicities, although a line may be drawn at the nuclear program...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:14 / 17.03.03
Lilith: wow - I was wondering how mainstream American news sources were going to spin this, seeing as its not the kind of thing they can actually ignore. That's a very impressive demonstration of the 'blame the victim' mentality in action...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:45 / 17.03.03
Furthermore, the Pakistan/India situation is something the US will stay as far away from as possible.

Indian view of the US lifting of economic sanctions makes for gloomy reading.
 
 
Lilith Myth
14:54 / 17.03.03
Sure, with Rachel Corrie being the first international protester to be killed during the troubles, and a US citizen, there's bound to be serious US coverage. Although a number of Jewish US citizens have already died in Palestinian suicide bombs.

Frankly, there's only spin left. On either side. It's a miserable world and I'm just not feeling very happy with it today.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:16 / 17.03.03
from my local paper a detail: after the event...

Several Palestinians gathered at the site, and troops opened fire, killing one Palestinian, witnesses said. The Israeli army had no comment on that report.

Well, obviously they were "militants" and "acting irresponsibly".
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:38 / 17.03.03
I've just read some rather nauseating threads at a warbloggy site which I don't wish to name, let alone link, suggesting that the entire Rachel Corrie episode was faked up (despite the fact that I believe the IDF says that the bulldozer did indeed kill her accidentally) - and that even if it wasn't, she deserved everything she got for being a 'Stupidtinian terrorist'.

Frankly, there's only spin left. On either side. It's a miserable world and I'm just not feeling very happy with it today.

Quite. O brave new world, etc etc.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:00 / 18.03.03
Spin on either side? Bullshit. It's a peace activist being run over by an army fucking bulldozer - you don't need to 'spin' that to make it sound one-sided, it *is* fucking one-sided. Sometimes things *are* just black and white.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:07 / 18.03.03
Sorry Fly - I meant to refer to the general situation everywhere, not to the specifics of Rachel Corrie's death, when I quoted that. Was feeling pretty despondent after threads'-worth of revolting comments about her, and treading very carefully because even the mildest anti-Israel/IDF comment gets you labelled an anti-Semite in those places.

Perhaps 'spin on all sides' would be better?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:18 / 18.03.03
Ah, I know, I just get very hacked off with the centre-left/'liberal'/'moderate' attitude of "they're both as bad as each other!" where Israel/Palestine is concerned - which I know is not exactly what you were saying. My post was more in response to Lilith's.

In other news, Israel to build huge fuck-off wall around Palestine.

Jeff Halper, a respected documenter of Israeli expansion in the occupied territories, said it was hard to justify building a wall through the Jordan valley as a protection against terrorism.

"If you're talking in terms of terrorism from the Palestinian side, there's not much to attack in the Jordan valley. It's not like the wall on the other side where you've got Israel," he said.

"So it's hard not to conclude that they are using the wall to create a de facto border that basically reduces the West Bank to the 45% or 50% that Sharon is talking about giving the Palestinians, all truncated."


Also in this story, which even the Guardian (frequently accused of being anti-Israeli, pro-Intifada, etc) doesn't think if worthy of its own news piece:

Meanwhile, the Israeli army killed 10 Palestinians, including a four-year-old girl, in a raid on a Gaza refugee camp yesterday.

Hanan Ansar and two teenagers were among those killed as tanks and helicopters led an assault on Nusseirat camp in search of wanted Palestinians and to destroy the homes of "terrorists".
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:53 / 18.03.03
Will find quotes later, but I read Indian newspapers online, and the level of 'border' skirmishes/
'terrorist' action in India and Pakistan has shot up over the last year. And the rhetoric of both countries is of states who are waiting until their war is politically expedient...

And if you want to know whether the UKs participation has any impact on the Palestine/Israel stituation, checking on how much 'aid' the US is providing to Sharon's government might be a clue.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:23 / 20.03.03
Israeli forces disrupt Rachel Corrie memorial service.

"Israeli forces fired teargas and stun grenades yesterday in an attempt to break up a memorial service for Rachel Corrie, the American peace activist killed by an army bulldozer in Gaza on Sunday..."

You know, you keep reminding yourself that a lot of people in the IDF have been conscripted, and the dangers of villfying them, and then they continue to reach new depths of behaviour. Fucking charming.
 
 
rizla mission
13:30 / 20.03.03
motherfuckers.
 
 
Enamon
14:01 / 21.03.03
The limited visibility claim is bullshit. First she was wearing a bright orange vest, second of all she was 5 feet from the tractor and she was right in front of it. There are pictures of the incident online. Third, you all forgot to mention that the tractor RAN OVER HER THEN BACKED UP AND RAN OVER HER AGAIN!

The IDF have a long history of lying. They kill people every day. Their credibility was shattered when they began killing UN people and then lying about the circumstances. There was a resolution condemning Israel for killing of UN workers. It was passed unanimously only to be vetoed down by one country - the U.S.
 
  
Add Your Reply