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Comics and kids

 
 
sleazenation
21:17 / 24.09.02
A friend of mine has recently managed to convince his bosses at scolastic to include Jetcat Clubhouse by Jay Stephens on their book club list. Check here for details.

So what do people think about comics for kids? After 20 years of proclaiming themselves as an adult medium, how many cool kids comics are their?
what comics did you love as a kid?
And what other ways do people think would help get kids to read comics? And do we really want kids reading comics anyway?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:39 / 25.09.02
In my experience, it always seems that "kids comics" of the past two decades have mostly been

a) throwaway product tie-ins

b) quaint and out-dated - the type of things that aging creators and fans remember as being "kid's stuff" when they were children, so they are very out of step with the rest of culture and mostly just excercises in nostalgia

c) either a or b, but also painfully condescending and insulting to anyone reading them

I have no idea what kind of comics would be best for kids now. All I know is that whatever they are, they have to be based on what kids RIGHT NOW want, and not what people 20-40 years older than them might think that they want, or want to give to them. It think it really would have to be promoted heavily, and if that can't be done, the project should be scrapped. Whoever is going to do it really ought to do a LOT of demographic surveying. They need to be really, really careful who draws it.

I do think it's really important to have kids reading comics, cos you've got to hook people on the medium early if you want to keep them for the long haul. I started reading comics when I was 5 years old, but I never really read comics meant for kids. I was reading Uncanny X-Men, and various other Marvel Comics from the early 80s. Jim Shooter's Marvel was great, cos every issue was usually jam-packed full of story in a way that most comics today aren't, and they were generally pretty smart things for kids to read. I was re-reading a few of my first X-Men comics this past week, and pretty amazed by how dense and intelligent it was, and I was really into it when I was just a little kid. Maybe I'm weird, though. At 11, I was heavy into Morrison's Doom Patrol and Milligan's Shade The Changing Man. Still, I don't think it's a bad idea to consider something like New X-Men a pretty marvelous comic for little kids to read. I'd rather have kids read something that was just a bit over their heads and inspired them to catch up rather than pitch directly to them, or worse, beneath them.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:44 / 25.09.02
Yeah, I always loved to read things that were just a little bit naughty and over my head....

"Kid's comix"? Pfah!
 
 
grant
13:48 / 25.09.02
My 8 year old stepson, he wants Pokemon comics, if Yu-Gi-Oh made comics he'd want them... but he also wants Flash.
Unfortunately, I don't know any Flash titles that he'd "get," you know, unless you go back to the Golden Age or early Silver Age stuff.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:00 / 25.09.02
Grant, I've read a fair few Mark Waid Flash comics, as well as looked through a lot of the recent Geoff Johns comics - do you really think they are THAT much of the head of an eight year old Yu-Gi-Oh fan?
 
 
The Falcon
14:18 / 25.09.02
I read 'Spider-Man and Zoids', 'Transformers' and, latterly, 'Thundercats' as a kid. The former actually features about 7-10 Zoids stories by the man Morrison, and I can recall most of it well - particularly his 'Black Zoid' arc, which I thought (and think) was head-tearingly great. I also am a big fan of Simon Furman's Transformers stories, which created a whole mythos around these toys. Bob Budiansky's American reprints were pretty terrible, though, as was the art quality (Jose Delbo, as I recall, for the most part.)

Grant, Geoff Johns seems to be considered the premier superhero writer around in many quarters. I didn't personally think awful much of 'Hawkman', though. Again, there's a Morrison/Millar run (130-138) which fairly well embodies the romance of kid's comics - should be fairly easy to get cheap. 'The Human Race' (136-8) particularly gives me misty eyes. I got them at cover price in Dundee's only comics shop. I believe Millar also wrote 139-41, but I don't have that. And Morrison wrote the intro to 'Born to Run' by Mark Waid, who's sometimes good, sometimes bloody awful (JLA: Year One, being a notable example of the latter.) He is rated highly as a writer on 'The Flash', though.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:22 / 25.09.02
I think one important habit to get new readers into is in buying a monthly series - if yr pushing only old classics on folks, they might become inclined to think that the good stuff ends around there. Getting a kid into the current Flash comics might not be a bad idea. Sounds like a good place to start.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:26 / 25.09.02
Grant: Rejoice! Yu-Gi-Oh comics on the way, in the form of SHONEN JUMP, a big fat monthly black-and-white anthology premiering in November--averaging 250+ pages, retailing for $4.95, and available at any well-stocked magazine rack, not just at comics specialty shops.

Sounds like a slam-dunk, except for the right-to-left format.

Flux: Yes. Because neither Mark Waid nor Geoff Johns are really writing for eight-year-old Yu-Gi-Oh fans--they're writing for the current comics audience, which looks more like... well, like Mark Waid and Geoff Johns, who've been reading comics since they were eight--and who are so steeped in forty years of DC continuity that they seem to have largely forgotten Julius Schwartz's famous edict that "Every comic could be somebody's first comic."

Seems to me the only "entry-level" superhero comics being written these days are the Cartoon Network tie-ins over at DC--SUPERMAN ADVENTURES, JLA ADVENTURES, et cetera.

Because, let's face it, Marvel's stated goal of making the "Ultimate" line an entry point for new readers has proved to be pretty much a shuck, hasn't it.

Which is as it should be: why the fuck should a kid want to read THE FLASH? Kids are supposed to have their own culture, their own icons: it would be sort of creepy if I expected my kids to grow up listening to the same music as me--they're supposed to be finding stuff that makes me scream, "Turn that garbage DOWN!" That's normal and healthy--that's how the state of the art of music progresses.

So why on earth should I expect my kids to read the same comics I did and do?
 
 
The Natural Way
14:50 / 25.09.02
Weeell...I read the same comics as MY Dad and I didn't grow up w/ three heads.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:04 / 25.09.02
Well, I basically agree with Jack, BUT...

If the kid has a stated interest in the Flash, I don't think the comics that Mark Waid and Geoff Johns have made will be THAT much of a challenge for the kid. Even if they get caught up in weird continuity stuff, it might not matter much. I know as a kid that the continuity heavy stuff didn't bother me, and sometimes it was just a weird puzzle to figure out or leave to the imagination. For kids with active imaginations, it might not be a bad thing at all.

I can't speak so well of Geoff Johns since I've never paid that much attention to him, but Mark Waid generally writes pretty basic straight-ahead stuff. I don't think he's hard to follow, and even if he can be on the simplistic side, he stresses humanity and character in his comics, which is a good thing.

Jack, would you say the same things about the "classic" literary canon that kids have to read in school? That Dickens has nothing to say to modern children, just the same as Superman is old and useless compared to Yu-Gi-Oh, a character who exists for the sole purpose of selling a card game designed to hoodwink small children?
 
 
some guy
15:28 / 25.09.02
Isn't the continuity argument just a red herring? When I was a kid, working out convoluted continuity was part of the fun of reading comics. It's no different than tuning into ER during the third season...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:38 / 25.09.02
ER is a good example. I didn't start watching the show til a year ago, and all the references to older storylines and a deep history just made the show more interesting for me. ER isn't any more convoluted than most any long running comic, and it has a massive audience.

I think a strong case can be made for Laurence, Runce, and myself probably being weird kids, but I'd rather treat kids like intelligent people rather than spoon-feed them baby portions.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:44 / 25.09.02
Flux: find me a teenager who reads Dickens for pleasure.

Oh, all right--maybe they're probably out there: but Dickens is no longer a part of the Popular Culture, he's a part of the Canon.

Honestly, it's not about good or bad: it's about what the kids want. Do the Rolling Stones have anything to say to you? Sure: but still, given your druthers, you'd rather listen to Pavement. And that is as it should be: your buying Pavement records doesn't make the Rolling Stones go away (apparently nothing short of a targeted nuclear explosion could accomplish that).

And have you ever watched the Yu-Gi-Oh cartoon? It is surprisingly gripping.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:45 / 25.09.02
ER isn't any more convoluted than most any long running comic, and it has a massive audience.

...of adults.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:06 / 25.09.02
Not sure if this is off-topic to the thrust of the conversation, but from glancing over at the children's library the Tintin and Asterix books do seem to be genuinely popular with the little monsters.

Have any of you come across the 'Graffix' series? Probably a UK thing, they mix comic art with stories to appeal to reluctant readers. Unfortunately from what I can tell they aren't going out much (whether this is ignorance of their existence or dislike I don't know) and I wasn't hugely impressed by the kind of stories on offer when I did look at a few...
 
 
some guy
16:11 / 25.09.02
Considering most of us grew up reading the same comics our parents' generation did, I'm not sure your argument holds much weight, Jack. People lined up in droves to see the Spider-Man film. The videogame is hot. Three generations have had their own Spider-Man animated series. There's no real indication that these characters don't have as much appeal as any "new" youth franchise, unless we're only talking about comic books, and that's why this thread is here.

The simple fact is that almost everyone I know was reading Marvel or DC comics with issue numbers in the triple digits when we were kids. None of us were there for The Avengers 1 or Detective Comics 27, but we all figured it out and got hooked; for many, the larger continuity puzzle was part of the fun. For others, it was no different than catching Transformers in its second season, or missing the first episode of the latest GI Joe miniseries event. Give kids some credit - they're brighter than you think.

Kids stopped reading comics for three reasons:

1) The shift to the direct market
2) Outrageous cover pricing
3) Poor quality stories during the boom
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:17 / 25.09.02
That's funny. I've been listening to a lot of Rolling Stones lately, I just don't know what to say to that. But when I was 14, yeah, your point is totally right on. That was almost ten years ago, I'm getting older.

I've seen the Yu-Gi-Oh cartoon a few times. I wouldn't call it 'gripping', unless that's a euphemism for 'so dumb and insulting to the intelligence of anyone over the age of four that I wanted to break the television set'.

Apparently, what little kids want now is to be sold to in the most obvious and insulting way, so that's why I'm in favor of having comics made via focus group for them. There's just no way anyone with half a brain besides JK Rowling is going to make anything that's going to appeal to this generation of kids, thanks to growing up on what they have. It's not the comics industry's fault that they are what they are, but if they're going to court these kids as future readers, they'd better be prepared to bend over backwards for them. And that includes getting over that pesky "they are mostly functional illiterates who would rather play games" hurdle.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:21 / 25.09.02
Considering most of us grew up reading the same comics our parents' generation did...

And look where it's gotten us. And the industry.
 
 
some guy
16:56 / 25.09.02
And look where it's gotten us. And the industry.

It's gotten all of us here into comics. When I was young, there were a ton of comic readers in my high school. All of us were reading books with triple-digit issue numbers. The came in in that atmosphere. They left for other reasons (probably the same reasons preventing new readership).
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:10 / 25.09.02
I think the key (on the creative end) is to not talk down to kids. And that includes the standard over-simplicity of the superhero genre as a whole (w/admitted exceptions). I read a lot of crap when I was a kid that I don't remember being particularly thrilled with, but it was stuff that my few friends who read comics were reading so I kept up w/it. If I hadn't found anything beyond that nonsense that sustained my interest, I probably wouldn't be reading comics today. But I chanced upon Swamp Thing and Hellblazer (which, at age ten, weren't exactly written w/me in mind) and I was hooked (though it should be said that the thrill of convincing shop owners to sell these titles to a kid in the censorship-mad state of Florida might have contributed slightly to my interest). If I had kids that age, I'd definitely introduce them to more adult titles if they expressed an interest in them. And that extends to all media.

I guess I would say I prefer "all ages" comics to "kids" comics. If it's a book that could potentially be enjoyed by anyone of any age, then kids are more likely to appreciate it. I would think, anyway. What age bracket are we talking about here, just out of curiosity?
 
 
The Falcon
22:58 / 25.09.02
Hey, if a kid wants Flash give him Flash: it makes me happy to see a youngster even knows who the Flash is. I'd suggest buying the ongoing, and maybe 'Born to Run' for birthday/Christmas (or another tpb, or that 'Iron Heights' thing Ethan drew, if he likes Johns.)

Continuity hooked me, too, but I don't know if that's a good thing, really. I've a lot of 90's X-related stuff that I wish I didn't. Some of it's quite good though. So - hand up - I know I was a weird kid, but I believe weirdness of that sort is ultimately good, rather than burning wings off flies, or whatever it is they're doing these days - seems to be going on about Spider-Man from what I can gather on my trips to newsagents and supermarkets.

LLBIMG:
Kids stopped reading comics for three reasons:

1) The shift to the direct market
2) Outrageous cover pricing
3) Poor quality stories during the boom


3 for 3, buddy. I think that's it exactly - well put.
 
 
Tamayyurt
01:13 / 26.09.02
and grant, if the Flash bores him there's always Impulse!
 
 
The Falcon
02:55 / 26.09.02
Has Impulse not been cancelled?
 
  
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