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X-Men: Claremont Vs. Morrison

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:51 / 17.09.02
Spinning off from the Laurence interview thread, I think it would be interesting for us to compare the differences and similarities in Grant Morrison's New X-Men and Chris Claremont's classic 70s-80s Uncanny X-Men run.

Here's some interesting bits from that thread. Laurence's comments are in bold, mine are in italics.

--------

Do you think Morrison's New X-Men is at odds at all with Claremont's original X-Men run?

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, Morrisson obviously does love the original Claremont run, but on the other, the je ne sais quoi is gone. Wolverine has nothing in common with the subtle Claremont portrayal (though to be fair Claremont is the only person to ever get him or Storm right). But I'm willing to accept evolution of the characters. I really enjoy New X Men, but I do think it's at odds with the core ethos of the earlier run. These are rich, glamorous people. Their soap operatics are intriguing, but removed from the mudanity that infused Claremont's run (consider UXM 168, 183, 206). The influx of bizarre mutant students further distances. The X-Men is no longer a metaphor for us - they are fantastic, beautiful people. Running Xavier's as an enclave of mutants guts the family subtext of the Claremont run, and seems in direct opposition to Claremont's deliberately integrationist vibe. In a less generous mood I might suggest that Xavier has failed and Magneto won. I think this distancing of the characters makes the X-Men more like any other team book, and I think it damages the emotional impact of the underlying metaphor. We can identify what the mutants stand for intellectually, but emotionally? What kid is going to read Beak and say, "That's me?" Where's the Kitty character, the normalcy of the New Mutants? New X Men is a wonderful read, but it's not grounded.

Well, two things - I think that it is wise for Morrison to shift the X-Men in a direction that has more to do with what he wants to say, and what he feels, rather than to keep pushing Claremont's old agenda. I have no doubt that the basic ethics and vision of Claremont's X-Men were strongly felt by the man. I think one of the things that most connects Morrison's X-Men to Claremont's X-Men is that they both have some degree of passion and grand vision in their work, and though those visions may be different, just having that to guide the characters is what makes their X-Men connect in ways that other writers have been unable.

I think that it should also be noted that Grant's X-Men is just a handful of the characters, and just because the school has changed, it doesn't mean that all of the X-characters have gone along with what Grant's characters are doing. I do wish X-Treme or Uncanny X-Men were better counterpoints - though Claremont still pushes his outsiders/integrationist/family buttons, there isn't much an actual commentary on how that cast of characters really deals with their associates at the school. Ideally, I'd want to have NXM for the school, and another series that would be more akin to the post-Mutant Massace, pre-Jim Lee X-Men. Instead, we get Chuck Austen.


re: In a less generous mood I might suggest that Xavier has failed and Magneto won. I think this distancing of the characters makes the X-Men more like any other team book, and I think it damages the emotional impact of the underlying metaphor. We can identify what the mutants stand for intellectually, but emotionally?

Well, it depends on how you interpret the X-Men. There's an obvious persecution angle, but I think there's also the more optimistic way of looking at it - it's about people who are born with special talents that they need to learn to develop and use for the common good. I think this is more to do with where Grant is going - it's a metaphor for finding what is good and useful in everyone and finding a way to give something back to the world.

I think that it's probably a bit too soon to assume that the negative moral implications of the Xavier Institute's new direction will not be dealt with down the line in Morrison's run. I get the impression that this is all being set up for a reason, I doubt that Grant is being sloppy about this.

Re: Beak
I would think quite a few angry, depressed, frustrated young men may have a lot to relate to in Beak. I think Beak is very much the Korn/Slipknot type of kid, and I'm really glad that an X-Men writer finally decided to slip in a guy like him. All the youthful junior X-Men characters over the years have never been anything like him, and I think he's a necessary contrast instead of having yet another Kitty Pryde or a Jubilee. I'm not sure what you want when you say this - just more normal, good looking kids? More well-adjusted? I think Grant Morrison is very keen on the mutation-as-awkward adolescence angle, and Beak's a great example of that. If I were in charge of the X-world, I really wouldn't want lots of freaky alien-looking mutants, mostly cos I think that it scientifically is implausible, I think that the mutations should be more similar and practical if it's really a next step in evolution. But working in metaphor, it makes sense to have a bunch of freaky kids walking around the school.
 
 
Hieronymus
04:02 / 17.09.02
I don't know if this has been mentioned at all before but during the Eighties there was a mosaic sci-fi book series called WILDCARDS, which dealt with superheroes in a real world, 80-early 90s era politics. Claremont actually did a bit of writing for the series and within it, it dealt with freaks who had either had their own powers as their saving grace for being grotesque and abnormal or just freak without any gifts, who were the bottom of the societal food chain. After reading Grant's Angel and Beak characters, his interpretation of the Beast and the only non-supermodel mutants, I was dumbstruck at how much his meanderings through the concept of mutation seemed to parallel those within the WILDCARDS series.

I have no idea what it means, exactly, as I'm fighting sleep as I write this. But the similarities and the explorations of freakdom and mutation were certainly interesting. Anyone else read that book series?
 
 
some guy
11:55 / 17.09.02
UNRESTRAINED FANBOY GEEK ALERT!
LONG WHINY PARAGRAPHS FOLLOW!!!!

I think that it is wise for Morrison to shift the X-Men in a direction that has more to do with what he wants to say, and what he feels, rather than to keep pushing Claremont's old agenda.

Absolutely, and I do really enjoy what Morrison's doing. He's only had one fumble so far, with the Weapon XIII storyline. But in a pinch I prefer Claremont's old agenda.

though those visions may be different, just having that to guide the characters is what makes their X-Men connect in ways that other writers have been unable.

That's true. I do get a sense that Morrison has affection for the characters. He's added a depth to Beast that wasn't there before (I now like the character, instead of feeling indifferently to him). He knows how imperious Charles can be (just like the last time he walked, in the JRJR run). Even Scott's affair is sowed in the character's history rather than tacked on for shock value - this is the man after all who walked out on his wife and child after a single phone call. It's certainly the first time the characters have felt real since Claremont left.

I think that it should also be noted that Grant's X-Men is just a handful of the characters, and just because the school has changed, it doesn't mean that all of the X-characters have gone along with what Grant's characters are doing. I do wish X-Treme or Uncanny X-Men were better counterpoints - though Claremont still pushes his outsiders/integrationist/family buttons

I think you've just hit on a major problem for me, actually. Remember when Claremont wrote both UXM and New Mutants, and later Excalibur? They were separate series, but perfectly integrated. Characterization was consistent throughout, and the three seemed woven into the same tapestry. They had different styles that also served to comment on the other parts of the troika. The current trio of X-Men titles don't do this. UXM is currently a wasted book. It's superfluous, the team members poorly chosen, the integration with the mansion poor. Even editorially it doesn't make much sense - why don't all the X-Men wear the same uniforms?

I really, really wish Claremont would buckle down and take a long look at his older work and recommit to Extreme. It should be the "unsung band of outlaw heroes" book, a core family group (perhaps the old-school characters) cut off from the mansion precisely because they're outlaws, or because they disagree with Charles' new vision, or even because of some diary McGuffin. I'd like to see a return to the street level X-Men of just before and after the Massacre - a group that has no home, has no friends, has no purpose except sheer survival. It's a pity that after Claremont left the subsequent writers eviscerated Storm's personality and will. She should be quite steely and able to pilot a true break-away faction. It's nice that Claremont has made Bishop slightly more interesting and real, but I think it's time to stop servicing every damn trademark and jettison a lot of these characters who just aren't working anymore. Get back to basics. Gambit should never have been anything but a one-storyline guest character. Bishop is useless, the three new characters flat and irrelevant. And Rogue is a textbook example of how a good character can be completely destroyed by the multi-writer system.

Ultimately, I think the "superconsistency" experiment is a failed one. The results are unsatisfying.

There's an obvious persecution angle, but I think there's also the more optimistic way of looking at it - it's about people who are born with special talents that they need to learn to develop and use for the common good. I think this is more to do with where Grant is going - it's a metaphor for finding what is good and useful in everyone and finding a way to give something back to the world.

Yeah, I see that intellectually, but it doesn't have the emotional resonance that Claremont's take had, when mutants were obviously the gay kid, the black kid, the Hispanic kid. Because the X-Men had problems and were pretty grounded in reality, they were relatable. Everyone's giving Morrison and company plaudits for removing the spandex ... but I remember when the X-Meh were in civilian clothes more often than not. Or maybe it just seemed that way.

The number of "normal" mutants like Doug and Kitty were good gateway characters. I don't think Grant has any gateway characters like that, and I think the beautiful people and the scifi technology also stand in the way. I think something is wrong when the Blackbird lands in suburbia to pick up every fish boy in America (and don't get me started on that. I can see being rich enough to buy an SR-71. But where do you make custom jets like that?).

There are several notable absences in Grant's take. Where are the everyday humans who are willing to give mutants a chance? Where are the humans in the school? Where is the alternate choice - the Magneto, the Massachussetts Academy?

I think that it's probably a bit too soon to assume that the negative moral implications of the Xavier Institute's new direction will not be dealt with down the line in Morrison's run. I get the impression that this is all being set up for a reason, I doubt that Grant is being sloppy about this.

Yep, agree totally. But I can only talk about what's been done so far, right?

I would think quite a few angry, depressed, frustrated young men may have a lot to relate to in Beak. I think Beak is very much the Korn/Slipknot type of kid, and I'm really glad that an X-Men writer finally decided to slip in a guy like him. I think Grant Morrison is very keen on the mutation-as-awkward adolescence angle, and Beak's a great example of that.

I suppose. But to me, that's a key shift in the metaphor. Aren't most comics basically adolescent power fantasies anyway? I initially liked the X-Men because they were different. I guess when the pacifism subtext comes firmly to the fore the series will stand out more.

If I were in charge of the X-world, I really wouldn't want lots of freaky alien-looking mutants, mostly cos I think that it scientifically is implausible, I think that the mutations should be more similar and practical if it's really a next step in evolution.

More than that, I think that this signifies a huge difference in the writing talent of Claremont and his successors. To cram the MU with mutants makes them less special. Making them more bizarre affects the metaphor, because it makes them less like us. We were all Kitty, Doug, Sam or Dani. None of us is Beak - not in terms of emotional connection. But the increase in the "freaks" diminishes the subtext of having Nightcrawler around, or the ironic presentation of Beast. You couldn't have Kitty's arc re: Nightcrawler in today's MU, and that undermines one of the key strengths of the series. In the rush to present theory (the Noughties) or bland slam-bang comic action (the Nineties), the emotional core has gone. Without that connection, the X-Men is a poorer tool for subversion or agit prop.

Or, I could just be wallowing in nostalgia.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:04 / 17.09.02
Could be.

I mean, have you actually read any of Claremont's allegedly-classic 80s stuff lately, or are you just going on memory here?

I've made my thoughts on the matter crystal-clear elsewhere, but I don'tthink Claremont was ever much cop. His "vivid characterization" comprised about three or four "types," who kept recurring in various stories and under different names—the same trick that Warren Ellis draws so much heat for, these days.
 
 
some guy
16:58 / 17.09.02
I mean, have you actually read any of Claremont's allegedly-classic 80s stuff lately, or are you just going on memory here?

A few months back I read the four Essentials and my single issues through about 230 or so, when Australian stuff started to bore me. I don't think I've read anything after 250 after the first month it was published, and I rarely read the hyped Byrne stuff because I don't think Claremont started firing on all cylinders until about 150.

I read 212 again the other night after the Q&A and I think my review of it still stands.

His "vivid characterization" comprised about three or four "types"

Maybe we have different ideas of characterization? I'm not thinking of the type or accents so much as the main characters as evolving people. The core cast were all deftly realized over time in a way that their individual stories and metamorphoses seemed to grow out of, and funnel back into, their characters. Characterization isn't Peter as the soft-spoken poet who doesn't use contractions - it's Peter fumbling his break-up with Kitty, or mishandling their early flirtations. I don't think any post-Claremont writer has handled the characters this way, and I include Morrison in that. Obviously, our mileages may vary.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:18 / 17.09.02

Ultimately, I think the "superconsistency" experiment is a failed one. The results are unsatisfying.

I'm not sure what you mean...how has it failed? The way I understand it, it's just about not having the comics step on each other toes so much and avoiding crossovers. I think that Grant's ideas about fair play in continuity is very reasonable, and that the failures you speak of have more to do with the severe limitations of Joe Casey, Chuck Austen, and present-day Chris Claremont than anything else.

I agree with you 100% about the X-Men being too rich, and the absence of regular well-developed humans in the stories.

About Beak - I think that if any character is going to be a hideous non-human freak, this is a case of it being very well done. You're right, most comics are adolescent power fantasies - but Beak isn't that. He's an adolescent powerless reality. Beak and Angel hate their mutations, they hate who they are, and their story is about coming to terms with who they are and finding value in themselves. I think that's a very worthwhile story, and something that is very relatable. Beak's freakish appearance is an outward expression of his feelings of ugliness, depression, and self-imposed isolation.

I think it can be argued just the same that Kitty Pryde, Doug Ramsey, Sam Guthrie, Jubilee, et al can be alienating - they are attractive, well-adjusted kids. I know what you mean, how they are good entry level characters - all the same, I think Beak and Angel speak to a different audience, readers with low selfesteem. They're losers right now, but they'll eventually grow up and turn out okay, I'm sure. By the way, don't you see some echoes of Kitty's initial fear of Nightcrawler in how Angel and the Cuckoos treat poor Beak?

I was re-reading some of my old Claremont X-Men and New Mutants comics last night and this morning. Some of them are better than others, but they are better than I'd remembered. I definitely see why I liked them so much as a kid - they were, and still are, heads and shoulders above most other superhero comics. I also agree with Laurence - he did have a knack for ongoing character development, especially with Storm, Colossus, and Wolverine.
 
 
some guy
19:17 / 17.09.02
I'm not sure what you mean...how has it failed? The way I understand it, it's just about not having the comics step on each other toes so much and avoiding crossovers.

I like the idea of superconsistency - that Logan can appear in both New X Men and Wolverine and as long as he looks and acts the same, we don't have to worry about how to fit it all in. But I'm having a hard time buying Logan in three titles monthly. The two titles covering the mansion seem to have nothing in common - and aside from Chuck Austin's first issue, don't even seen to occur in the same environment. Everything feels fractured to me. Compare that to the early days of The New Mutants, where characters from one series would pop up for a few panels in another because they all lived and breathed in the same space. It felt more organic. There's a middle ground between slavish continuity and what's happening now, I think. I agree the "blame" should be laid at the feet of the other writers.

About Beak - I think that if any character is going to be a hideous non-human freak, this is a case of it being very well done.

I sort of agree. But isn't this Nightcrawler's role (and doesn't his traditional demonic appearance better add to the richness of underlying metaphor), or Beast's? I'm not sure we need Beak and Angel. I think she's probably got a better case for being used than he does, because Us but gross, while he's Them.

I think it can be argued just the same that Kitty Pryde, Doug Ramsey, Sam Guthrie, Jubilee, et al can be alienating - they are attractive, well-adjusted kids.

To be fair Kitty and Sam were deliberately drawn gauky and not too attractive when they arrived. The junior team had their share of emotional problems early on, and Kitty got a little fucked up from her parents' divorce (which surely fed into her reaction to Storm's Japan metamorphosis and sense of abandonment, as well as her slightly creepy penchant for older men). I wouldn't call Dani or Roberto "well-adjusted" initially.

To be honest I'm sure some of this boils down to personal preference - I like my mutants rare, with powers tending toward the plausible. I think monstrous mutants like Nightcrawler and Beast are dimished by an abundance of young freaks. Maybe Beak would have more impact if Xavier's wasn't crawling with transparent jelly boys?

By the way, don't you see some echoes of Kitty's initial fear of Nightcrawler in how Angel and the Cuckoos treat poor Beak?

Yes, but I would argue this is sloppy writing as the mansion is positively overflowing with freaky mutants at the moment. Are they all outcasts, or just Beak?

All this probably sounds more negative than it should - I'm really enjoying Morrison's work and if anything, I think he's too slavish to the old school continuity.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:14 / 18.09.02
I dunno, I do get the feeling that, since the end of the Cassy story arc, Grant's started to move off in his own direction. Just the lack of obvious super villains alone....things like that really make a difference. And as for gross mutants: well Morrison likes to go for the ideological jugular. Sure, there's nothing understated about his "INTEGRATE THE OTHER!" manifesto, but, by truly repulsing me, amping up that "mutants lay eggs!?!" factor and taking Hank McCoy to the limits of what we consider acceptable sexual behaviour - interspecies humpyfun - well....now we're in some really radically polymorphous, bendy territory - real "mutate and survive!" stuff. The alien seeps off nearly every page and, whilst Grant's work does lack some of the humanity of Claremont's, that doesn't really bother me: s'not what I'm reading the book for. Xavier's, as Jean tells the press, is a testing ground - Morrison's lickle paperverse alembic where he extends human "reality" into the post-human: out, out, out...just to see what we find there. So, yeah, this book really is about possibilities, new environments, the new century. Loz: yr gripe about Grant failing to make his mutants as accessible as Claremont's is all good and groovy, until you realise that Grants' book is supposed to be a POST-human soap....and that's a very different beast. I think we can learn a great deal about ourselves by mulling over what might lie beyond that, rather limiting, boundary.
 
 
some guy
11:12 / 18.09.02
yr gripe about Grant failing to make his mutants as accessible as Claremont's is all good and groovy, until you realise that Grants' book is supposed to be a POST-human soap....and that's a very different beast. I think we can learn a great deal about ourselves by mulling over what might lie beyond that, rather limiting, boundary.

Sure, which is why I still read and enjoy the book. But often I feel like I'm now reading an essay with pictures. Post-human soaps are interesting in theory, but difficult to give an emotional damn about. I am now very interested in the X-Men, but I no longer care about them. I think this is a key transformation of the series. I think the underlying humanity of the Claremont era is what built the book from an obscure monthly to the top title in the industry and, perhaps more importantly, generated enough goodwill to carry the X-Men through the truly dire '90s. Morrison has largely removed that emotional component by deliberately moving the book toward an examination of post-human theory. Interesting and fun, like I said, but unlikely to create any sort of reasonance after his departure with NXM150.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:34 / 18.09.02
I think I disagree with this statement. Part of the whole sweep of the series seems to me to be an abandonment of purely integrationist politics and the start of a development towards extending human reality in lots of weird directions. It's somewhere between gay politics as represented in shows like Friends (which was the aspiration of a very liberal but essentially conservative mindset) and a more explosive 'just deal with it' sense of trying to make the world accept the possibilities and wonders of human extremes. As such the alienating characters are as much about radically different cultures and races / religions of people than it is about the hispanic kid, the gay kid or the black kid at school. it's not about tolerance in your everyday community, it's about the magic and terror of complete difference. I think it's interesting that grant has chosen to concentrate on the weirder mutants rather than the more normal ones, and I suspect their development will be fundamental to the series...
 
 
The Natural Way
14:40 / 18.09.02
Hey, Tom: no fair! That's my last post all over, but dressed in another, more easily accessible (and actually coherent) suit. I wish I could write better, esp on the lamb at work....
 
 
some guy
14:46 / 18.09.02
As such the alienating characters are as much about radically different cultures and races / religions of people than it is about the hispanic kid, the gay kid or the black kid at school. it's not about tolerance in your everyday community, it's about the magic and terror of complete difference.

What storylines would you point to here? Other than Beak I don't think we've gotten so much as a line from the other freakish mutants. I think Grant has a lot of great concepts, but that when applied to narrative storytelling things fall apart slightly. This shouldn't be a suprise to anyone who read The Invisibles. The theory is great, but if theory is all you've got, write an essay. I think Grant's basic deficiencies as a storyteller are creeping out. I don't feel like I'm reading about people with issues, I feel like I'm reading about capital-i Issues examined through unified mouthpieces. It's the opposite of Claremont's old approach. This doesn't make it wrong or inferior - it's just that, for me, the emotional link to the series is gone. I enjoy it for different reasons than I did before.

I think it's interesting that grant has chosen to concentrate on the weirder mutants rather than the more normal ones

Considering his X-Men are Beautiful People (even Beast is modeled after Cocteau, suggesting a cultured high-brow approach), I'm not sure how you can say this. Are we counting Angel and the Cuckoos as "weirder mutants," or are we talking Beak and the background population of the panels?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:00 / 18.09.02
Laurence, I know yr just saying how you feel, but as for "emotional links", I think that Grant has done a wonderful job. I used to be completely indifferent to Scott, Henry, Jean, Charles, and Emma, and now I find myself really caring about what happens to them. That goes for new characters like Xorn and Beak too. I relate to Grant's Henry McCoy more than any other X-character in any era, which is a big deal for me, I've been following this since 1985.

Do you think that this has more to do with you liking and relating more to Claremont's cast of characters, and less to do with Grant's writing?
 
 
some guy
15:48 / 18.09.02
Do you think that this has more to do with you liking and relating more to Claremont's cast of characters, and less to do with Grant's writing?

I think it has to do with Grant painting the characters with big brush strokes as opposed to Claremont's tiny detailing. A different approach - no better or worse. I just prefer one to another.

I agree 100% with the Beast assessment, but I wonder how much of our reception of Scott and the gang have to do with Quitely? I find myself liking Cyclops and Phoenix because they just look so damn cool. But what have Scott, Jean or Logan actually done in Grant's run to make them 3D people rather than types? It's the same problem I have with Ultimate X-Men, actually. We're kind of told who these people are, rather than shown.

I'm really digging Xorn, by the way. Best new character in 15 years. I think Angel has a lot of potential to be the new Kitty, after the disaster that was Jubilee.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:40 / 18.09.02
I think Logan is pretty much a glorified guest-star in NXM - he's very rarely in the comic at all (which shows that Morrison does like to make concessions to continuity enthusiasts by leaving plenty of space for him to appear in his own comic and Uncanny), and when he is, he's there mostly to serve a function as a) action hero or b) wise old friend.

I think the continuing storyline with Scott and Emma, along with several scenes with Scott interacting with Jean earlier on, have been very successful in making Scott a complicated and interesting character. I think there's a lot of subtle complexity in Morrison's Cyclops, considerably more than any other writer's version of that character, including Claremont. I think Morrison's Jean Grey is considerably more human and nuanced than any other previous writer's version to date. I always disliked how Chris Claremont wrote Jean Grey - I never thought he invested much in her besides making her a martyr and an outlet for some really flowery dialogue.

I don't think Frank Quitely has really made any of us develop strong connections to the characters, cos let's face it, he's only drawn less than 1/3 of the issues to date.

At least everyone can agree that Xorn is the best new character in a very long time. I hope we can see him more in upcoming issues.
 
 
some guy
16:54 / 18.09.02
I think the continuing storyline with Scott and Emma, along with several scenes with Scott interacting with Jean earlier on, have been very successful in making Scott a complicated and interesting character. I think there's a lot of subtle complexity in Morrison's Cyclops, considerably more than any other writer's version of that character, including Claremont.

NXM is literally the only time I have ever liked the Cyclops or Phoenix characters, so I do give Morrison high marks for that. But I don't feel that I'm any closer to knowing who they are as people. I tend to see character in terms of an equation: Character X will react Y in situation Z. The more well-drawn the character, the more likely you are to accurately predict Y even if Z is an unknown situation. I just don't feel like that with Morrison's characters. Jean seems to have a bland compassion, but that's about it. What does she do? What does she like? What are her dreams? Who is she? Right now, I don't know. I'd like to delve more into that area, get the NXM equivalent of those old John Bolton stories.

Maybe the disappearance of thought balloons affects this.

I always disliked how Chris Claremont wrote Jean Grey - I never thought he invested much in her besides making her a martyr and an outlet for some really flowery dialogue.

I think Jean died before Claremont really became a good writer. I don't have too much time for his early stuff - or even the original X-Men, until their NXM incarnations.

I don't think Frank Quitely has really made any of us develop strong connections to the characters, cos let's face it, he's only drawn less than 1/3 of the issues to date.

Yeah, but in one issue my entire vision of Cyclops was instantly changed. That's pretty powerful artwork. There's a lot of visual subtext going on that shades these characters - what they wear, how they stand, their expressions and their body language. Rightly or wrongly my vision of these people is as much governed by his artwork as by Morrison's scripts. Even when other artists are drawing issues, I'm still reading them influenced by Quitely's work.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:22 / 18.09.02
I think when you talk about it like that, I completely agree with you about Frank Quitely. He did drastically change the way those characters are meant to be seen and visually interpreted. He did a lot to instantly pull those characters back to their roots and away from the post-Jim Lee superhero looks that had done a lot to obscure their established character. When I see Frank's illustration, a good example being the cover of #135, the characters seem a lot more...real, I suppose. They seem true. They seem like fully realized characters with or without Grant's script.

Laurence, out of curiosity - do you think there was any one artist that complimented Claremont the way that Quitely works with Morrison? I would say John Byrne was similarly able to visually define the characters the way Frank has been able, but I don't think Byrne was as talented as John Romita Jr.
 
 
some guy
17:46 / 18.09.02
do you think there was any one artist that complimented Claremont the way that Quitely works with Morrison?

John Romita, Jr. just seemed to get everything - tone, mood, feeling. Who else could have nailed Peter's shame when dumping Kitty? He and Claremont seemed to want to take the series in the same direction at the same time - that synergy gives a real buzz to those issues (and it's good to see JRJR leave at precisely the right time, just as the train pulled into the station).

Paul Smith, Alan Davis, Bill Sienkiewicz and Dave Cockrum in his second run also seemed to be on the same page, while I suspect Byrne, Silvestri and Jim Lee didn't "get" it (of course, Claremont also seemed to have said what he wanted to say after killing off the characters in Fall of the Mutants, and could be to blame for the lack of synergy there). The four BWS issues are amazing, and Rick Leonardi did great fill-in work.

In general, comics are obviously a collaborative medium. Like McCartney and Lennon, Morrissey and Marr, the whole is somehow greater than the sum of their parts. I put the JRJR and Quitely issues in this category.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:03 / 19.09.02
Sooo do I.

I quite like the way Grant play's with the idea that we don't and never really have known Scott. Jean's busy lighting up like the sun ans Cyk....well, he's always there to "support" and "love" her...where the fuck is he in all this? Morrison's Scott, is tight, anal as fuck, single minded and completely inhibited. And, as far as I can see, VERY BLOODY ANGRY. See, you guys are talking about the moment when Quitely MADE the characters for you - In just one panel you knew who they were - well that's the way I feel about a lot of Morrison's characterisation. From the little things you can extrapolate so much: that last panel with Cyk taking off his uniform..." sure Jean...why not?". God, he took off his "UNIFORM"! That's a fucking huge thing for him to do - I suddenly understood about alll his emotional armour; the fact that he loves this woman and he has all these needs that just aren't being met and that a big part of him wants to take revenge on his wife...
 
 
The Natural Way
08:05 / 19.09.02
...I just got that stuff instantly... Morrison's run is full of those little instances. they're spare, they're condensed, but I think, in the end, probably just as effective.
 
 
some guy
12:43 / 19.09.02
Morrison's Scott, is tight, anal as fuck, single minded and completely inhibited. And, as far as I can see, VERY BLOODY ANGRY.

And yet at the same time he's deeply compassionate and seems genuinely interested in other people. For the first time, he feels like a hero to me, and I get a sense of the emotional sacrifices he's had to make to being in the X-Men.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:55 / 19.09.02
There's some very weird punctuation in my last two posts. Excuse me, I'm hugely hung over today.
 
 
The Falcon
23:06 / 21.09.02
For whatever reason, I've always really identified with Scott Summers (he's my kind of avatar into X-Men - all those red-haired girls...well, I say all but mean a couple, but with many refracted visions) and these posts are strangely enough like seeing my neuroses in COLD, HARD PRINT.

Weird, anyway.

I'll shut up now.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:13 / 15.10.03
I'd like to formally resuurect this thread, as I'm in the market for some quality Claremontian discussion for a few reasons.

a) These final two New X-Men storylines have the most Claremontian feeling to them; Planet X being the only one currently in existence. It just has a similar feeling to it, to me at least, from those apocalyptic Manhattan-In-The-Grips-Of-Sheer-Chaos, the likes of which one is probably used to seeing via the pen/pencil of Romita Jr. & Green. And this latest issue, 148, is CLASSIC.

But it is, in its essence, completely Morrisonian. As I'm making my way through all of Claremont's X-Work (including New Mutants, Excalibur, Wolverine, et al), it's become blindingly obvious that you could NEVER write comics like this again. Most likely, everyone knows the reasons, the densest narration this side of the Old Testament, for starters. But, in it's own beautiful way, it all fits together perfectly. It's definitely a completely unique feel, and not really recaptured in X-Treme, sadly. It's like some kind of bizarre, Bell-Bottomed Chamber Drama.

b)As I mentioned, I'm churning my way through all the Claremont I can get my hands on (just picked up all the Essentials and am filling up on New Mutants as well), and I'd like a place to bounce ideas around. This thread looked like the perfect place to do it.

My first reaction, after flipping through a good deal of my new finds, is complete astonishment that Marvel ever published the Claremont/Sienkewich (sp? please?) issues of New Mutants. They're fucking incredible, but at the time, completely unlike anything anywhere (You've got Smith and Romita, Jr on X-Men at the time, just for comparison). It's as if Warlock was created for him.

There's just so much density to Claremont's unthinkably massive consecutive contribution to the X-Canon, about 180 issues (including annuals) of X-Men, 60 or so issues of New Mutants, 40 (?) issues of Excalibur, the first 15 or so issues of Wolverine, and at least 50 issues of specials or mini-series. Safely, about 400 issues, and who knows how many pages total. The real clincher, though, is that it all feels like a singular work. It's like Dickens or something. There's these completely interweaving plots and character arcs, and the real sensation that you're following these characters as they grow. Just a simple example, the way he handles the seperation of Jean/Hank and Cyclops/X-Men, up until right before the Proteus stories. The loss felt by both parties, and then the slow alleviation of that grief, is completely palpable (thanks to miles and miles of thought baloons).

But I think I've blathered enough, considering I'm just starting this grand excavation. So, hop in everyone.
 
 
Krug
21:12 / 15.10.03
I don't think Claremont's comics were very good and considering the sort of standards comics had in the 70s, they appeared to be entertaining not to mention most of you were very young.
But you know all this, my real question is this...

How well will Morrison's X-Men fare thirty years from now?

Or even ten.

Claremont's comics don't even ppear to be awful in the twenty first century as I read them when I was 17 which was not that long ago in case you were wondering. I was reading a lot of terrible comics back then and was hardly impressed with Claremont/Byrne, Claremont/JRJr etc.

I tried Xtreme when it started out and I read the first three or four issues which were painfully bad. The man cannot and should not write.
 
 
Krug
21:23 / 15.10.03
I tend to agree with what people have said above about Grant's "ideas eat the characters" illness that he's had for the longest time which has spoiled the X-Men for me. I'm quite seriously disappointed because of the hype we were all fed pre-run in interviews about massacres and the "death of Gambit" etc. Even the solicitations excited me "Germ Free Generation" sounded so cool.

IMO, E is for Extinction is the only near perfect he's done. It's also the only one which had some emotional impact.

On a reread of the "Riot at Xavier's" trade I feel that my expectations were misplaced and I wanted some irreparable damage be done to X-Men (at least irreparable during Grant's run) which is why I was disappointed when the delusions of grandeur only gave us a homage to If... and very clever hints about Xorn.

I'm just whiny because I'm disappointed by how many times Grant's characters are eaten by his ambitious ideas. Also, I want something more like "Best Man Fall." Now that's what I call a heartbreaking work of staggering genius.
 
 
The Falcon
01:21 / 16.10.03
Dude! Xavier is almost agonisingly noble, kind and tragic in #146. It's like a gutpunch, seeing that shit go down. Credit to Jiminez, and all that. He does = 21st Century John Byrne, despite owing more to Perez.

'The Dark Phoenix Saga' is acknowledged by a majority of Marvel afficionadoes to be the finest arc published by that company. Early Claremont is superb.
 
  
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