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Changing the collective...

 
  

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Tom Coates
12:56 / 16.09.02
I think it's time I accepted the inevitable and suggested to people that we should work to move people's personal weblogs in the collective onto non-barbelith space. I've not had the time to work on incorporating them properly into the rest of the site and i think I'm stopping them develop in terms of design, formatting etc. I've already given Flyboy's old user name full access to his site as an admin so he can do what he like with it, mainly because he moved off the server already. But I don't know if he knows this because I can't find his e-mail address anywhere and I think he's changed his user name (I've been really distracted lately from my board responsibilities - apologies again)...

All opinions gratefully received, but I think this is the right thing to do... I'll put up redirection pages here to wherever people want them hosted - I suggest starting with Blogspot as it's free. This will give everyone complete freedom to play with their templates, upload images - all kinds of stuff they might like to do - and stuff that I just can't do on Barbelith... I think I can think of some stuff that might make up for me being an arse...

And I think we can keep the collective itself going, but I think maybe in a slightly different form that allows anyone on the site to suggest stuff to put on it... I'll have a ponder and a chat with Cal...
 
 
Jack Fear
13:33 / 16.09.02
Instant, gut reaction: I feel betrayed.

We were invited to do this thing--one which I'd never have considered doing without your prompting, Tom--and then had our support withdrawn.

Traffic to the various Collective blogs dropped the moment the redesign came into play and the links at the top of each page were eliminated. We were effectively abandoned: there was no way for anyone to find us, to even be aware of our existence. You let the blogs die, Tom.

And you're letting the zine die, too. Or Rob is, by proxy. It's our front page, and it hasn't been updated in months: to the outside, we look like a ghost site.

You need to figure out exactly what the fuck you want the Barbelith domain to be, and then let it be that thing. And if you can't handle the workload yourself, for fuck's sake delegate.

Am deeply pissed off right now.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:20 / 16.09.02
If anything, I think the main Collective blog should be scrapped rather than the individual ones. Might also be a good idea to ask those who have Collective blogs if they'd ever actually use the greater freedom that taking their blogs off-site would provide - if not, I don't really see any need for this.

Logos set up a page with links to all members' blogs here. I can't help feeling that it would be a good idea to include this in the drop-down box at the top of the Barbelith main page (talking of which, the one on the Underground pages still doesn't do anything).

The webzine's another matter, but, again, if it's never going to be updated then it may as well be killed off. It just makes us look like we all can't be bothered when it never gets updated.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:33 / 16.09.02
We were invited to do this thing--one which I'd never have considered doing without your prompting, Tom--and then had our support withdrawn.

Traffic to the various Collective blogs dropped the moment the redesign came into play and the links at the top of each page were eliminated. We were effectively abandoned: there was no way for anyone to find us, to even be aware of our existence. You let the blogs die, Tom.


Way-ull....actually, he provided a free hosting service and technical support for people's blogs, and then found himself no longer able to devote himself fully to providing full support to this free service. It may be a bit bad to have left everything up in the air for so long, but it's not exactly killing Bambi.

I always felt the collective was fundamentally a bit silly. I mean, some of the people on it no longer post on Barbelith with any regularity, many of the others have changed their names since and are no longer identifiable as "/dayglo" or "/zenith", say, and, although it was set up for poeple who did not have blogs of their own IIRC, it just looks like a "people we like get a free blog" section. I think the Logos list, properly formatted and regularly updated, would be far more democratic.

The zine is a more serious matter - since Barbelith does seem to centre around the message board, it might make sense to make it the front page, in effect.

In the meantime, might I suggest that people take advantage of Tom's offer to help them on to new free service providers? Then, working without a safety net, they can one day knock off Tom's Best European Weblogger But Only Because Wil Wheaton Isn't Technically Speaking European crown.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:41 / 16.09.02
Fucking hell! Well I wasn't prepared for the strength of that reaction at all... I actually assumed that people would be happy that they'd be given greater access to manage and create the look and functionality of their weblogs. I'll change my mind if the consensus is that I'm making a mistake, but I have to clarify that I just don't have a lot of time to do everything. As to the zine - Rob is nominally in charge of that, and he's probably realised what a lot of work it is. I don't want to get rid of it, because I think there is time for us to pull that back together again, but I can see your problems. As to delegating - it's just really hard! You get access to one part of the site and you have power over everything. It's hard to do that in any useful fashion...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:59 / 16.09.02
See your point. I don't have any problem with dumping or moving mine, as one of the people who hardly posts, i agree it's not a great addition to the site, and doesn't really justify someone having total admin access - could the barbeblogs list thingy be incorporated/ linked to above, as part of the the webzine/underground/collective links? this would be pretty simple, and perhaps you could make it oneof the distinguishing characteristics between Plebs and Overlords, Citizens and metics etc... Then the range of personal blogs would be part of the overall scheme....

to be honest, have never been bothered about not having control over the template, prolly 'cause I only just about know how to link and create paragraphs... I guess, if i've had an idea of the blog, i've thought as the gruop representing some of the things I find distinctive about barbe.... i've (not so much recently) focussed mine on gender, and social/mental health isses and therapuetic stuff, as this is something that I think makes me view distinctive... can see a similiar thing in Jack's and Rosa's , for example...

but whatever really, I've appreciated having the opportunity to try it wihtout having to learn anything and if I want to keep going I'm sure i can figured out how to bung everthing on blogspot...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:49 / 16.09.02
You already know all you need to get a blogspot blog up and running, Plums. The posting page is exactly the same as the one you're used to and templates can be chosen from a list and created automatically.
 
 
Persephone
19:19 / 16.09.02
Personally I'd like for Logos's Barbeblogs page to be, well, the Barbelith blogs page (and linked here.) It seems to allow for links to lots more blogs, and there's a nice spirit of anarchy there. Whereas the Collective feels more to me like centralized control, not that I don't enjoy the blogs there individually.

FWIW I think the zine also would be better with its own domain, too. Then all you would have to worry about is the board, Tom. You could just put the board on the front page; and whenever sleaze is ready, you could put a link to the zine somewhere. Although I like to think of the zine as it is now as the front of a speakeasy.

Spin-offs would be good for Barbelith, I think, at this point. It could turn into something like the Barbelith Confederation...
 
 
bio k9
20:37 / 16.09.02
Are all the people pissing on about the slow death of the zine writing anything for it? Is there a backlog of material waiting to be added to the site? If so, let the fingerpointing begin. If not, whos letting it die?

Personally, I think the front page should have a graphic that gets swapped out every few weeks, a blurb that tells a little bit about the site and a link to the underground, a link to the zine and a link to a barbemember blog list.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:50 / 16.09.02
As far as I know, there is a backlog of articles for the zine. If they're not going live, perhaps they could be used here as topic starters?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:52 / 17.09.02
I'm happy to move to blogspot or somewhere else (can possibly get free hosting here anyhow, I just need to get my act together.) Although it was a good idea to begin with... To me, for the collective blogs to work, they need more attention -- both from us and from Tom. And I would really like to put some permanent links up on my blog; it feels a bit like an island at the moment.

Just give us a date by which time you want us to move on, eh...
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
06:08 / 17.09.02
if you want some opinion, here's mine :
- the zine IS a great idea, and is done very well by people who know what they talk about. now, i don't think that anybody can blame Tom or Rob or any other, cause i think i remember that those guys invited EVERYBODY to join the fun by sending stuff to put in the zine.
now, maybe the people from the board don't have much time or whatever, but it's kind of gross to say that the zine didn't change for times. it's up to all of us, if i remember correctly.
- the COLLECTIVE was, for me, at the begininning of my times here, a cool introduction about more personnal shit about the "well knowed" people from the lith. it was cool, and still is (well, for some of them), but yes indeed, maybe refreshing it sometimes could have been done...
- Logo's Barbeblog page is quite cool, and it looks like Logos is able to keep it fresh permanently ; maybe we could see it as a "big-collective" aside the "old-permanent-people-who-where-here-from-the-beginning" crew.

so between Persephone and others ideas, yeah, i think adding a kind of Logos part on the front page, aside the zine (which isn't the ultimate attractive lith thing these days) (don't get me wrong, it's cool, uh), and aside the collective (kind of an "homage", let the people from the collective being in their own part, aside Logo's barbeblog), with the underground as the main stuff on the main page...
well, i dunno. i feel it cool this way...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:53 / 17.09.02
oh and Jack- for fuck's sake, chill out, Tom does not belong to us, nor is he our mother.

(now there's an image)
 
 
Tom Coates
10:43 / 17.09.02
To be honest Jack, I think I'm trying to sort out the problems that I've caused with some of the collective stuff rather than make it worse. I should have had more time to get it up and running and keep it up and running. I always meant to, but never got around to it. I'm quite comfortable with finding some way of incorporating the Barbeblogs page into the site proper, if people would find that interesting... I can talk to the people involved and see if they'd be interested...
 
 
Jack Fear
14:31 / 17.09.02
I'm better now. Thanks to all who've suggested I get a grip: I apologize for the vehemence of my initial reaction, which was, as I said, an instantaneous, gut thing—I was aware even as I was typing it that I was parting company with reason along the way.

But let me say outright, Tom, that we get very different things out of weblogging. I (and, I suspect, others in the Collective) could not care less about "functionality," nor about changing the template, nor about (as per Tannhauser's tongue-in-cheek suggestion) winning awards. I am not a designer, not a hobbyist: I'm a writer, and I enjoyed having an outlet. My blog was my broadside, a place to put essays, links, and photographs; blogging qua blogging, showing off redesigns, getting comments, being a part of "the blogging community"—these things interest me neither a jot nor a tittle.

I'm still disappointed, though. What really slaughters me about the whole thing is what a wasted opportunity it's been. The zine and the Collective were supposed to be the foundations for a real community, organized around the message board.

So yeah, my Collective blog was a purely functional vehicle for expression, and yeah, I could do that just as well at Blogspot or elsewhere. But y'know what? I'm not likely to do so. The reason I started blogging at all (despite, as you recall, some initial misgivings) was all about community-building.

The implication when this all started was that, in hosting the blogs on Barbelith, they were not simply blogs by Barbelith members (like plasticbag, or Venusberg, et cetera), but an integral part of the Barbelith experience itself: both in and of Barbelith. The promise of the idea was that the blogs would act almost as columns in a magazine or newspaper, providing updated content on a near-daily basis while the zine itself was updated weekly.

The mix of posters invited to participate seemed (whether this was Tom's intent or not) to be chosen to for the express purpose of varying perspectives. Activism, showbiz, university life, gender issues, surrealism, romance, journalism, fashion, music, therapy, magick, art, faith, family—even listed in this horribly reductionist form, it sounds like a recipe for a great cocktail, a bracing mix of voices and concerns, a kaleidoscopic world-view.

But the fragmentation began almost immediately, with technical glitches and storming off in huffs and Bartleby-esque refusals to participate, and so the project seemed stillborn. The blogs were never integrated into the zine or the message boards in any meaningful way. It was ambitious, but we were operating without a model.

But I'm seeing the idea in practice elsewhere, notably at Opi8. They're generating healthy traffic at their message board with a set of blog-style journals (the "Transmit" section), each updated once or twice a week. Each blogger/columnist keeps fairly tightly to a particular brief—Japanese culture, film criticism, practical magick, work journals from the film industry, theater, fiction writing, and the visual arts.

It's not a perfect model—ideally the blogs would be integrated better into the zine itself, and the board would be more a community centered around the zine, and less an advertisement for it—but it sort of works. In part that's because it's attached to an entity, (Opi8 magazine itself) that is both content-rich and regularly-updated, and in part because each blog has a clear agenda: you know why it's there, and you know why you're reading it.

This could have worked (and perhaps still could) on Barbelith. But changes would need to be made to make the Collective blogs an asset, a draw, rather than a useless liability:

  • Purpose: Each blogger should define a "beat," come up with a brief mission statement: This is a journal of my struggle for success as a one-legged ballerina. or This is my first year in the military and what I thought of it. Whatever. Not as restrictive a mandate as "film reviews" or "magickal record," but something that helps the reader get a handle on the blog.


  • Information: A header giving some biographical information (true or made-up, it hardly matters), the aforementioned mission statement, and perhaps an image—something to make it plain that these blogs are attached the Barbelith for a purpose, not just because they're The Popular Kids. Integrate it right into each blog's template.


  • Integration: shedloads of cross-linkage: from the Collective page to each of the others, from each to each, from the front page of the zine to each.


  • Exposure: related to the above, really: remember the "Today on the Barbelith Underground" box that used to run on plasticbag—and on the front of the zine, too, if I'm not mistaken? Have something like that, again on the front page of the zine, featuring a selected pull-quote from one or more of the blogs, with appropriate link. Bring back the one for the Underground, too—have "Today's Featured Topics" alongside "Today's Featured Blogs." Integration; that's the key.


  • Day late and a dollar short, I know. And it's your project, not mine.

    Maybe I should just shut up, be grateful for the chance I've had, and fuck off to start my own zine—as has been my suggestion to others.
     
     
    rizla mission
    15:35 / 17.09.02
    I think that plan sounds pretty good (um, the ideas outlined by Jack above that is, not the idea of him fucking off).

    I definitely think the future of the 'zine lies in somehow incorporating the Barbelith Review idea which was suggested a little while back. I can't speak for anyone else, but in terms of my own writing output, ideas for analytical essays are few and far between, but if I could submit straightforward reviews of stuff I could contribute a near endless number..

    As to the collective, feel free to kill my blog if you like, it's never really worked out.. it's like, if X is the various stuff I do, Y is posting on Barbelith and Z is the amount of time I inevitably spend being lazy, writing stuff for the Blog is an unnamed letter that comes after Z and never really materialises. If that makes sense.

    [shambles off to fall asleep on the carcasses of other peoples dead dreams, or something similarly grotesque and melodramatic]
     
     
    Spatula Clarke
    18:13 / 17.09.02
    I think that there is a sense of a Barbelith blogging community separate from the Collective efforts that's built up since the thread in Conversation. Most member's blogs link to plenty of others, with mentions and responses to each other's comments appearing in their own posts. This generally includes the cross-linkage you mention, Jack. If there's some way to build on that, get current individual blogs tied under the Barbelith banner where people want, rather than trying to start something afresh, then I think we should try and do it.

    Logos' links page - or something like it - could be integrated into the site in some manner, as Tom suggests. It could become the frontpiece of a new version of the collective.
     
     
    grant
    20:24 / 17.09.02
    I can't code this, but it seems *possible* to have a banner on people's pages, blogs, whatever, which would contain the "Today's Featured Topics" list.

    Might be more work than it's worth, but it would tag each collective member as a member of the collective (whether or not they were sharing a barbelith.com address) and refer back to something that was going on back here or at the zine.

    Apparently the next zine article in line is a piece on Crass. I think there are two more in the line, but might have lost count along the way. In the months that have passed since May.
     
     
    invisible_al
    20:45 / 17.09.02
    It could be possible to have a include thing set up that you just drop into a blog template on one side and get something like the Notthebestukblog thing Tom had but about Barbelith.
    But the linkage back might be hassle with the design the way it is at the moment. The Opi8 forums range from quite good to a bit shash, but their setup works.
    Perhaps column in various forums with a tiny banner/include inside the thread linking back to weblogs and the zine.
    Just some random ideas, more cross linkage with peoples blogs would be good.
     
     
    Matthew Fluxington
    21:05 / 17.09.02
    I'm not crazy about Jack Fear's ideas - if it didn't work once, I doubt it'll be likely to work if you take freedom away from the poster to dictate the content of their own blog.

    I think we're better off just having a Barbelith blog directory, a la the Logos site, and have a collective blog on the front page of the site with weekly 'zine' features.

    Is this not reasonable?
     
     
    moriarty
    02:16 / 18.09.02
    I am crazy about Jack's ideas. I'm crazy about any ideas that make Barbelith a more diverse and exciting place.

    About a year into being here, I started thinking about ways to involve myself more into the community. The way I figured it, the more I put into the place, the bigger and brighter it would be to play in. For a period of time we had the 1,000,000 Words anthology chugging along, the Collective, the Zine, and all sorts of quieter, more obscure projects on the sidelines.

    I realize that the idea of investing heavy amounts of time into building upon Barbelith beyond simple posting is a view not shared by everyone here, and I've always appreciated that. From lurkers to old-timers looking for a bit of stimulation to people whiling away the day at work, not everyone is going to commit to something so nebulous. But even if only ten percent of the posters here can throw their weight into something meaningful that we, as a group, can bring into the world, well why not give it another go? Yes, we've tried before, but so what? Maybe the Collective didn't work as is. Maybe it is better to just let it go and have a list of separate blogs. And maybe, even if we come up with a decent idea to keep it going, it still won't be worth it to Tom. But I think we should have something, or a few somethings. The Zine, Collective, etc. were all thrilling ideas. The last year has seen many things shake this board up, and changed peoples' perspectives on what they want from this community and life in general. But I think things have settled enough to give it another go.
     
     
    Tom Coates
    08:57 / 18.09.02
    Jack's concept is completely accurate to what I'd hoped the collective would turn into. But people around the site varied in their level of commitment and their interest in writing barbelith-related stuff as opposed to getting excited about the personal-writing aspects of this kind of medium. That's all fine - but it makes it harder to incorporate into the rest of the site. Yes - I wanted the collective to represent columnist like activities, but that's not how they're being used, and I think I was over-ambitious to expect that they would...

    The 'Today on Barbelith' box on plasticbag.org was (is!) always destined to come back, but it as almost a bit pointless when people weren't able to join the site. It requires me asking some stuff of Cal as well - stuff that I haven't managed to ask him about yet...

    And yes - it was supposed to be about heavy integration everywhere - but you have to start with the CONTENT... I don't think it's fair on anyone for someone who's given a space to communicate with the board to quit after a couple of months if we've spent the time integrating their presence throughout the site...

    Basically what I'm trying to say is that I initially hoped that people would treat them like newspaper style columns, but they didn't. In fact they wrote personal sites for the most part (if they wrote at all) - this is GREAT, I'm really DELIGHTED about this (although that means I can't ). But that doesn't warrant wide-ranging integration with the site. That's all.

    As to the zine - bloody hell that takes a lot of time and work to get it going. Probably no more than a couple of hours for each article, but still - it's a couple of hours. And that's when it all works and isn't a disaster.

    I'M TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING HERE. Shutting down the collective in this sense is more work for me than you'd expect - and I'm actually paying for you to maintain them as well, because I started all the weblogs they count towards my usage allowance on Blogger Pro, with an excess rate being charged for going over what one person normally writes in a month. It's a negligible cost, so it's a little unfair of me to bring it up, but still. And I'm doing this so I can try and get a grasp of Barbelith again and drag out the functionality changes that need to be made.
     
     
    Tom Coates
    09:09 / 18.09.02
    Right ok. I'm giving everyone admin access to their own blogs as of this moment. This means that they'll be able to change their publishing details to blogspot - or any other webhost that they want - and adapt their templates anyway they want. Unfortunately it will also mean they can't publish to barbelith.com - at least initially. As soon as people have chosen a temporary place to set themselves up, I'll replace their blog with a redirection page asap. I'll leave the collective up there for a while, until we can figure out what we want to put there in its place. This could mean bringing back SEPARATELY much more focused, columnist style blogs, or it could mean moving the Barbeblogs page there (if the person concerned wants to do that) or it could mean something legitimately and interesting and new.
     
     
    jUne, a sunshiny month
    10:45 / 18.09.02
    i'm not feeling you that much cool with all this, Tom, or is it me ?
     
     
    Tom Coates
    10:56 / 18.09.02
    Sorry - I've been having a really difficult day at work. I don't have a lot to do today, there's little I can do, so I feel oddly powerless, and yet I've been being taken to task a couple of times for stuff that other people haven't got done which I'm unable to help with. My sitting around is being taken badly and I just got a bit grumpy. Sorry to everyone. Still - this move is important, I think, and should be undertaken as soon as...
     
     
    Eloi Tsabaoth
    16:05 / 20.09.02
    Hi Tom. Please kill my blog.
    I entered into it with the best intentions, and recently there was a whole slew of stuff I considered posting, but for some reason I had a big block on it. It porbably failed for the same reason my attempts to keep a diary failed so many times : I am self-conscious and lazy
    Thanks for the chance, anyway.
     
     
    Tom Coates
    23:15 / 20.09.02
    Yeah, but you're hot, and so infinitely forgiveable. Not that I have favourites, mind.
     
     
    Regrettable Juvenilia
    12:30 / 21.09.02
    Just a clarification: I started the new blog only cos my old one stopped working (and, not to join in any Fear-ful Tom-kicking, but I did mention this). Don't know exactly what full admin access of whatever means - to be honest, at this stage what I'd ideally like is to have the old /zenith address take people stright to the new one...
     
     
    Tom Coates
    13:10 / 21.09.02
    No problem Jack, no problem at all. I'll sort that out later today. In the meantime, if you want to get all your OLD entries back, then if you tell me your current e-mail address I can give you access to your old blog. Then if you want (unfortunately probably only by hand), you could merge the two together in some way. Let me know if you're interested...
     
     
    Tom Coates
    13:10 / 21.09.02
    I didn't mean Jack. I meant Flyboy.
     
     
    Jack Fear
    14:04 / 21.09.02
    *sniff*

    Nobody loves me.
     
     
    Jack Fear
    15:08 / 21.09.02
    My wretched blog, BTW, has been transmigrated to Blogspot, so you may delete me at will.
     
     
    Tom Coates
    19:07 / 21.09.02
    As soon as you've moved your site, don't forget to post the new URL here.
     
     
    Rollo Kim, on location
    07:39 / 24.09.02
    I'm working on it - having trouble connecting to my WebSpace at the moment.
     
     
    Goodness Gracious Meme
    15:28 / 02.10.02
    My blog, thanks to Tom, is now here
     
      

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