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Viable Alternatives to War

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:45 / 13.09.02

Make policy.

What other routes are open to the US, the UN, Europe, etc.?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:56 / 13.09.02

Of course- there's the diplomatic pressure to let in inspectors. Or spies. Sometimes I forget the difference. But... it looks like that's not even gonna count anymore.

I know this sounds dumb... but we haven't tried REASONING with the guy in, like, fucking ages. At least not when we've been prepared to listen to his answers.

Look, don't get me wrong- he really doesn't seem like my kind of people. I just don't think we have the right to just change regimes as and when it seems fitting TO US. In this case, it may be a good idea. But we've set enough dangerous precedents before- why add to 'em?

Personally, I'm all in favour of intervening when there are abuses of basic human rights. Such as we missed out on doing in Iraq long ago. But I think any such policy should be applied across the board.

I think it comes down to whether our moral argument holds water. In which case, it should be applied universally. A selective moral judgment is no moral judgment at all. (And let's face it... we ain't about to take on China, are we?)

As far as alternatives go- I don't really think it's up to the West to come up with alternatives. Not because it's "someone else's problem"- just that I don't think we have the right to impress our models on others.

The irony being- my personal favourite outcome would be a popular uprising which the West would support. That way, it's still the will of the people, they're just no longer so outgunned.

Unfortunately, they'd be fools to trust us again, having sold 'em out so many times.

The alternative to war is always peace. The real question is, can that be achieved, and if so, how?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:17 / 13.09.02

I don't think we have the right to impress our models on others.

Do we have the right not to?

10:26 / 13.09.02

Small problem with popular uprising option, well it happened right after the Gulf war, Kurds in the North, other oppostion groups in the South. And America refused to support the ones in the south as it would destablise the country and force them to keep troops there. Result Kurdish sort of state in the north, rest of the country has no opposition groups because they're either dead, imprisoned, crippled or are too terrified to do anything after the reign of terror Saddam imposed after the war.

Help from the Kurds is always a possibility but they need American and UK air support to defend their territory at the moment, they're not exactly going to liberate the country themselves.

As for some positive policy, go on a diplomatic offensive in Saudia Arabia, Egypt and neigbouring nations, encourage the democracy movements or at least the moderates in a quiet way in such nations rather than considering them threats to stability. Errrr I'll get back to you on anything else.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:27 / 13.09.02

Nick- I think we have the RESPONSIBILITY, as human beings, to protect the "rights" of others. However, I don't think we have the RIGHT to do a great deal else. Our models, much as they're what I grew up with and owe so much too, are only that: OUR models. I fully believe in responsibility. I also fully believe in basic rights. I just think that when it comes to "our civilisation's *better* than your civilisation", while I may personally find that true, I don't think we can, or should, make it universal.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:17 / 13.09.02

The world is a consequence of our model, like it or not. This is largely our mess. We can't dump it on the Iraqi people and walk away. Also, just because our model is tolerant does not mean it has to put up with vile bahaviour. I don't buy political and social relativism to that point. Just because something is only my opinion doesn't mean I shouldn't try to make it universal - particularly if the opinions of others call for my opinion to be quoshed. The notion that a morality being relative excuses it from having to act on its own positions is odious.

14:41 / 13.09.02

So what exactly makes Saddam any different from the various other Despotic Tyrants in various locations that nobody seems all that bothered about?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:03 / 13.09.02

We happen to be talking about him right now. If we're under an obligation to do something about him, we're also under an obligation to do something about them insofar as that's possible.

[Define 'possible']

But if we have no right to do something about him, the arguments for that probably extend to other areas and we may not be willing to accept the consequences of that.