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Adoptions from China

  
  

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grant
17:14 / 12.09.02
I'm thinking about adopting a child from China. I seem to be pretty good at this fatherhood business, thus far.

I've always thought adoption was a pretty good thing to do; there are plenty of kids without families, growing up in institutions. This isn't very good for babies - they call the syndrome "Failure to Thrive." It's also a positive approach to overpopulation: don't make new babies when you can help out babies that are already there, yeah?

However, there does seem to be something a little odd in a transaction involving taking in a baby from another country, especially since where I live (the US) is definitely a "have" country, while most other places with international adoption services are "have-not" countries.
There's also matters of cultural/racial differences between my current family and a new addition from China. Doing a bit of research, I've found this isn't as big a deal as it could be (I'm already relatively familiar with a few basic elements of Chinese history/religion/culture), but it can still be an issue.

So, I'm curious about what you all think. Pros & cons. Comparative ethics. Is this a good thing to do?
 
 
nutella23
17:30 / 12.09.02
I would say go for it. I have two adopted cousins from El Salvador (adopted as infants during the mid- 80's), and they turned out OK, barring the occasional ignorant comment from strangers. My aunt couldn't have kids, so adoption was the only solution in her case. I don't see anything wrong with it ethically, I mean, by adopting, you'd be providing someone with a better quality of life. How could that be a negative act? Besides, there's no telling what a kid with the right kind of encouragement and support will grow up to achieve one day.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:29 / 13.09.02
I think it's a good idea but try to adopt a baby, Chinese orphanages are not good places, it's best to adopt a child with as few memories of the place as possible.
 
 
Persephone
03:32 / 13.09.02
Eeesh, well, I have fairly strong, not entirely rational feelings about whites adopting Asian kids. And I probably won't do well at all in a debate about this, because of the strong not-rational feelings. And in case you were wondering how irrational I could be about something, well... you might as well know that when Phil Graham was running for president & pictures of his family were in the paper, I would shout at the paper SENATOR... STEP AWAY FROM THE KIDS... And they were, um, actually his kids. And I knew that. (I am not this crazy with my brother-in-law, though.)

Q: Does it have to be China? Can it not be a child from, say, a European country that has a lot of orphans?

Ah well... some of the stuff in my head just isn't pretty. You're a very cool person & I'm sure you're not even going to be mad at me for being such a wet blanket.

Going off to mind my own business now.
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
06:40 / 13.09.02
as sais Nutella :"I mean, by adopting, you'd be providing someone with a better quality of life."

all is said, plus it's a pretty big proof of being smart and nice, mister G. my mother got 4 childs but she takes care of numberous lil childs without parents, or, worse, parents that weren't parents enough for raise and take care of their childrens. and i saw how these lil things need somebody in their life. so if you go for the chinese of whatever, you know that you'll get some weird looks from some people, but you'll take an extra bonus value point for your and their (the childs) life. well, i hope you'll get my idea.
 
 
grant
14:39 / 13.09.02
Persephone: pull *no* punches. I want a very thorough examination of this.
The question "Why China?" is a good one, and has a few answers. Most importantly, they're the easiest to adopt from - easier even than adopting someone from my home state. My family simply can't afford the thousands of dollars it takes to contract an adoption attorney on top of all the money it takes to get home studies and various other approvals. Plus, there's a history in this state of biological parents *changing their minds* or (spiteful, absent) fathers coming out of the woodwork *years* after an adoption has taken place and getting to take their babies back, and we're not ready to risk that sort of heartbreak. Part of my family is actually from Eastern Europe, and we've looked hard at the Ukraine and other countries nearby, but there's a history of, well, bad things happening because of Bloc-style bureacracy. (If I'm remembering right, there are regulations against adopting kids under a certain age, meaning that some formative years are spent in some rather bleak institutions, which can lead to health/social problems later on. I'm a little hazy on the details, though.)
Other countries are chaotic & expensive, process-wise.
Additionally, I have to say, I *like* China. I study tai chi. I've taken courses on Chinese philosophy & religion (just don't ask me about the influence of Meng tse on the neo-Confucianists, cuz I've forgotten). My sister spent a year in Taiwan and now works as an acupuncturist.
So there's a personal appeal there that is definitely going to shade things.
Thus, I really want to know all angles of this thing before going ahead.
 
 
Ariadne
14:55 / 13.09.02
There's definitely an issue with countries having their next generation taken away. Romania, for example, saw thousands of children adopted. And not all of them were orphans - my friend was nanny for some kids whose parents had given them up 'for a better life'. Which is understandable in a way, but bad for the country's future. And will bring some big questions for the children when they grow up.

Chinese babies being particularly 'cute' is an issue, I think; they look very doll-like. They're also seen as very sweet and obedient - the 'perfect' baby?
 
 
grant
16:05 / 13.09.02
Well, I *am* worried about that with the Romanian/Eastern European places, but as far as I'm concerned ALL babies are cute, and that's what stops us from killing them when they squirt shit across the living room. Which they ALL do, one way or another.
One of the understandings I have about China is that folks are less likely to give up babies "for a better life" and more apt to just give up babies. In part, it must be admitted, because of government pressure. Which kind of bugs me.
 
 
Ariadne
16:43 / 13.09.02
yeah, sorry Grant - I worried all the way home that I'd offend you! I wasn't suggesting that's your motivation, just that it's possibly part of why people find Asian babies attractive, cause they're projecting stuff onto them.

I'd love it if you could talk a bit more about why you feel so strongly,Persephone?
 
 
grant
17:56 / 13.09.02
I'm not offended - if I was going to worry about people offending me, I wouldn't be asking for opinions.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:07 / 13.09.02
I feel quite strongly about this actually, reading back I think my comment sounded quite flippant, let me tell you a story.

I have a friend who was originally Thai, at the age of three she was adopted by two English parents, one OK kind of woman and one rather nasty father. While the man obviously went some ways to screwing with her head (he was abusive) this girl remembers being chained to a cot in the orphanage where she lived for three years. Having brought a baby to this country her mother discovered that she was pregnant with a miracle baby. This caused massive abandonment issues for my friend because she didn't feel as wanted as she should have done. She was always the inferior child to her mother, always the subject of abuse to her father.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you're going to adopt a child it has to be equal to any other kid that's around. More specifically if you adopt a baby that looks different to you it will always have to explain to strangers that it is your child and perhaps that would be the hardest thing of all.
 
 
grant
18:23 / 13.09.02
Well, yeah. I don't think that'd be a problem for the immediate family - and most of the books my better half has found on the subject are all about those kinds of things - explaining that yes, this is your kid to strangers.

Good point, that.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:26 / 13.09.02
My immediate, knee jerk reaction is similar to Persephone's. It made me remember a lot of reports I heard about Romania, where it was assumed by British couples that bringing kids over here would be better for them. That's 'theory' though, isn't it? If a baby is in an institution with little or no hope of anything else, then do you stick to a belief that they should be brought up in their country and culture of birth, even when they have really grim prospects?

You seem very sorted, Grant. You seem to have some knowledge of the country and a lot of affection for it. I'm assuming that you'd tell the child about where se came from? It's a brave step, to be sure, something I could never do (worries about my health stopped me from working in a Romanian orphanage a few years back - that's as close as I'll ever get). Again, like others here, I'm not critising you at all - I think the child would have a great life with you. And sticking to a blanket 'principle' would be misguided, I think. So I think you should go for it.
 
 
grant
19:47 / 13.09.02
Yes, I'd definitely not make any secret about origins. In fact, yeah, this'd be my excuse to learn more Mandarin than "ni hao" and a "shih shih" and a handful of religious/martial arts terms. And one of the nice things about the China system is that you're paired up with a family in the country so the child always has a link to her country of origin (it being China, the kids up for adoption are overwhelmingly girls).
But still, I mean, it's not organic, the process, so I feel I gotta question everything.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:51 / 13.09.02
No grant, not you explaining that it's your kid, your kid having to explain it.
 
 
Persephone
03:19 / 14.09.02
Why I feel strongly about this. I do not know that I can rightly say. Hearing that it's cheaper and easier to get kids from China and that most likely these will be girls intensifies how I feel, a lot. So I am going to guess that this is about adoption as colonization. And this is hitting class, race, and gender --boom, boom, boom, triple threat.

What I am not trying to do, grant, is dissaude you from adopting a baby from China. It's nothing like the worst thing that could happen in the history of the world. It could even be a good thing. And all of the below could be the perfect example of the native hue of resolution sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.

But to invert Monica Lewinsky: examine, examine, examine.

I *like* China.

I really like England. I like English accents, English novels, the English succession of kings and queens that I once had memorized from the time of the Norman conquest to QEII. I like tea and biscuits. But this does not extend to adopting my own English schoolboy, because adoption should not be a means for the acquisition of culture. And I don't mean that this shouldn't be your only reason for adopting a Chinese girl, because I know that it isn't the only reason for you. But I am saying that this shouldn't be a reason at all. Obviously it would be bad if you were negative about baby's culture of origin... but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a good thing that you positively like China.

Which brings me to:

this'd be my excuse to learn more Mandarin

You gave as one of your reasons for not adopting an Eastern European child that you don't get to adopt children before a certain age. So you are talking about adopting a Chinese baby? Whom you will bring to the States and raise? How is this baby going to grow up speaking Chinese? A host family off in China isn't exactly going to provide enough of an immersion experience for language acquisition. My older sister spoke basically only Korean up to the age of four. All was forgotten as soon as she went to kindergarten. And I never learned any Korean at all, because I learned to talk in a house with one four-year-old who spoke English.

So I'm not seeing your learning Mandarin as having integral value in your relationship with this child. What I'm seeing is that you have a personal interest in learning Mandarin, but this is *your* interest and ought not be embodied in some other person. Who may actively not want to speak Mandarin or any other kind of Chinese.

This is why I say that it's not necessarily a plus that you have a particular interest in this child's being Chinese. Because I can fairly guarantee you that she's going to have her own intentions about how Chinese she wants to be. But the ground-zero event is going to be that you brought her here. A hundred fights that I had with my father ended with me throwing in his face that if he wanted me to be more Korean, he should have brought me up in Korea and not the U. S. of A. And he's not some white guy, not to put too fine a point on it.

These are my observations thus far. On the other hand, I'm also of a philosophical mind about this... but I've written long enough for this post. And so to bed.
 
 
grant
18:07 / 16.09.02
Persephone: Yes, the triple threat. That's exactly the kind of thing I need to think through. Examine, examine, examine.
The idea behind liking China/learning Mandarin would be to give the child a sense of origin, I suppose. It's not that I'm interested in acquiring culture per se (other than in the sense of being more, well, cultured), but more not wanting a kid to feel disconnected. I'm lazy enough (the charitable would say "laissez faire") that I'm not going to inflict "Chineseness" on a kid, I hope.
I hope.
(Thus, of course, this discussion).
I'd be more afraid of instilling a feeling of rootlessness or of not-belonging in an adopted child, which seems like it would be a heavy thing to live with, sometimes. I don't want to do that.
(As a note, I should say I've never memorized the succession of Chinese emperors. I almost have a better grasp on popes than I do presidents....)


Janina: Yes, I suppose that's the sticking point, isn't it. I honestly don't know what that would be like, since I strongly resemble my parents (even though we talk all differnt an' stuff). Even so, as a kid, I remember a time when I was more than half convinced that I had been left by alien visitors. With physical proof that that was the case... well, I don't know how that would have made me feel. I honestly don't know.

So, thanks for the thoughts thus far. If anything else strikes y'all (or anyone else), please let me know. I was pretty close to starting this topic as one of those hypothetical "I have a friend who..." things, because I want straight answers, but that didn't sit right with me, somehow, in this case. Thanks for helping me think.
 
 
Persephone
16:01 / 27.09.02
Sorry to dig this out of the basement where it was resting so nicely, but I figured that I still owed you the other hand of the argument...

To address:

not wanting a kid to feel disconnected... afraid of instilling a feeling of rootlessness or of not-belonging in an adopted child, which seems like it would be a heavy thing to live with

So yeah, but... this is going to be an issue with any adopted child, whether it's a Chinese kid or a Romanian kid plucked out of an orphanage and brought to where the streets are paved with gold. Or for that matter an American kid put up for adoption for whatever reason. Or an Asian-American kid with her natural weird parents. Doesn't everybody feel disconnected and rootless and not-belonging? Sigh, I'm never sure when I can generalize from my own experience.

*cue stampede of people saying "Nope, not disconnected." "Feel fine, thanks."*

So what do I know.

See, it was the idea of safe spaces that got me thinking about this again. Because aren't I arguing that this child would be "safer" raised by parents of Asian descent, preferably Chinese parents in China?

If I may borrow what Disco has said in the safe spaces thread:

"But that whole rhetoric of 'safety' is also about having one's individual experiences validated, reflected by others. For a space to be safe one often has to have a sense of shared experience, shared origin--which is intriguing because of its liberal individualist bent, but also because of the assumptions made about personal experience being somehow 'genuine' or 'unassailable'."

So it occurs to me to say that there are no safe spaces. Or that the thing that makes a space --in this case, a family-- "safe," also makes it unsafe. And vice versa.

This is coming out all oblique --how apropos-- but hopefully you see what I'm getting at?
 
 
grant
16:33 / 27.09.02
Doesn't everybody feel disconnected and rootless and not-belonging?

Yeah, I think that holds true for all but serious psychopaths. I suppose what I'm most concerned with is kind of the identity (facial/racial) you touch on here:

Because aren't I arguing that this child would be "safer" raised by parents of Asian descent, preferably Chinese parents in China?


Yes, I think. Of course, given China's rather strict controls on family size, adoption isn't terribly popular there (from what I understand), so that's probably not an option.

I haven't said much in the "safe spaces" thread because I tend not to believe in them as absolutes, but as convenient (maybe necessary) social fictions. Which is similar to (if more superficial than) what Mr. Disco says there. Anything that's set apart - a fortress on a hill, say - becomes a convenient target, maybe. Although that also is what safe spaces are about, right? Developing a small, homogenous group where you *don't* stand out?
Hmm.
Maybe I should spend time in that thread.

Anyway, I think what I'd like, in the best of all possible world, is to have a child feel like there are multiple "safe spaces" - both America and China, in a way. That might sound kind of facile or flat-out impossible on the face of it, but I don't know. Once you've got certain signifiers down in any given culture, it's pretty easy to pass (traveling with a Mexican through Indonesia taught me this). (Although "passing" vs "safety" is its own can of worms.)

My worry, I suppose: an Asian kid in a primarily Anglo family might have a reason to feel disconnected not just from the family, but from the culture in general. I'm more worried about the cultural thing, I suppose, because I have faith in families to build themselves right, given enough patience and affection, no matter who looks like what. And I suppose what I'm driving at is with enough cultural continuity (these are my people, here and here and here are where my people come from), there'll be less dissonance between kid & family & society.
But the dissonance will always be there in potential, yes.

So I suppose the real question is: how big a problem can that dissonance present? Will it necessarily be any bigger than the dissonance experienced by everyone?
 
 
Persephone
17:11 / 27.09.02
Right, that's what I'm saying (now). Everyone gets dealt a different hand of dissonance, that's the game. There is no perfect hand. The dangerous thing is the Idea of the perfect hand. Just focus on playing *your* cards.

Etc.
 
 
grant
17:48 / 27.09.02
If it's OK with Hades, will you marry me?
 
 
primaeval soup
20:28 / 27.09.02
Persephone: Doesn't everybody feel disconnected and rootless and not-belonging?

Grant: So I suppose the real question is: how big a problem can that dissonance present? Will it necessarily be any bigger than the dissonance experienced by everyone?

Persephone: Right, that's what I'm saying (now). Everyone gets dealt a different hand of dissonance, that's the game. There is no perfect hand. The dangerous thing is the Idea of the perfect hand. Just focus on playing *your* cards.

Thing is, difference is, an adopted person might very well one day get to meet his or her biological family, and be given a taste of…um, “non-dissonance”?…no, congruence…yeah, that’s the word. Congruence. But just a taste – just a flavour of what that life might be like – what it might have been like – and knowing of course that it wasn’t– and can’t be.

I’m not disagreeing with you, btw, Persephone. Your last post has been interacting with my head for the last few minutes; it kind of stopped me in my tracks.

Just wanted to post this for now.
 
 
grant
15:37 / 30.09.02
I just found out that an old friend of mine (you can hear her voice here) has a Vietnamese sister and a Korean brother. So I'm getting in touch with them. Apparently their two experiences growing up, relating to American culture vs. Asian culture were very different.
 
 
grant
12:50 / 06.06.03
I dug up this thread because I came across this rather horrifying story that makes me think I've made some sort of deal with the devil.

But I'd also like to say that reading it over, I was really unclear up there - the learning Mandarin thing isn't about being "Chinese" at home as much as it's about going to China. Particularly, going back to China later in the kid's life. A more functional consideration than it might appear at first read. I'm terribly murky sometimes, aren't I.

Commentary, by the way, is still welcomed.

Also, if there's anyone who has direct experience with the Chinese government, I'm interested.
 
 
grant
14:42 / 03.09.03
On the other hand, there's something to be said for family.

That link goes to a first-person public TV account of a Chinese adoption. Has pictures.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:17 / 03.09.03
I had a friend who sometimes arranged adoptions like this. She was a wonderful, passionate French woman named Yvette Pierpaoli. She helped another friend adopt from Latin America, and the results so far have been amazing - but the kids aren't all the way through school yet.

It wasn't all smooth sailing, either - even though everything was done right, a woman in the adoption office of the country the kids were coming from suddenly announced that she needed to be bribed. Yvette heard about it, and a few days later, the papers went through, the would-be corrupt official being especially helpful.

"What did you do?" We asked.

"I go to her," explained Yvette, "And I see she is married. I say to her 'you are going to make life difficult for my friend, hm?' and she says 'yes'. So," Yvette continued stoutly, "I say to her 'Eh, bien. If you don't help her immediately, I will sleep with your husband every night until you do.'"

I suppose what I'm saying is that adopting from anywhere is a difficult business, and that going outside the system to make it cheaper could easily end up more expensive unless you can find a champion. You need someone who knows the ground, and whom you know you can trust, because this isn't such a stress-free enterprise that you're going to want additional worries.
 
 
grant
15:22 / 03.09.03
Actually, I think that sums up the advantages of China right there. It's very... systematic. No unexpected bribes. No weird legal problems years down the line. And none of the Ukrainian going-to-the-baby-pound-to-pick-the-best-one trauma, because I couldn't hack that.
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:25 / 03.09.03
'fraid my comments won't be as beautifully articulated as others, but here goes anyway.

first of all, you're obviously set on adoption. and as you pointed out, it's far easier and financially viable to go elsewhere, not to mention the whole "nah, want my kid back" dealy. so, in that respect, I think that it's an excellent idea.

I also think the fact that you're stressing about it shows that you're thinking beyond those factors, into the long term, which is obviously important, but it's also a realm that a lot of prospective parents never bother to meander into. so you're ahead of the game there.

there will be potential problems with adopting any kid, from anywhere. horrible abuse happens here, too, from parents/guardians, from institutions. which is not to say that it's always the same here or wherever; not at all. only that it's always and forever a gamble, one that you're obviously willing to take.

what it boils down to you're doing right by this kid, and as long as you're an understanding, loving parent with an eternally open line of communication, they'll weather whatever storms come their way.
 
 
grant
14:25 / 22.09.03
The Guardian just had an article on the other end of the equation... the mothers of the abandoned daughters of China:

Excerpt: "We can't read or write. But, if you can, please tell my girl in the future to remember that, no matter how her life turns out, my love will live in her blood and my voice in her heart. [I could hear her crying at this point.] Please beg her new family to love her as if she were their own. I will pray for them every day and..."

The message stopped. Three months later, I sent the baby girl to her new family - a schoolteacher and a lawyer - with her new name "Better". Better's mother never called again.


The whole article is... vivid.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:13 / 22.09.03
Honestly, I don't see any problem with people adopting Chinese babies, so long as those children are not secretly Magneto in disguise.
 
 
Panic
19:40 / 22.09.03
Hear, hear! Well said!
 
 
gingerbop
20:52 / 22.09.03
And none of the Ukrainian going-to-the-baby-pound-to-pick-the-best-one trauma, because I couldn't hack that.

That was the only thing I was going to suggest that would be wrong. If it was me, i'd come home with the whole orphanage- i couldnt live with myself knowing if i took 'just one more,' it would make such a huge difference to their lives. How exactly does it work, do you get a random child, or you say criteria of age etc, and they choose one? That article of the channel4 documentary made me cry, and feel v-e-r-y guilty for wanting my own children.

But I'd say good luck to you. Hope they dont pull out any of your fabulous facial hair though. x
 
 
grant
21:36 / 22.09.03
How exactly does it work, do you get a random child, or you say criteria of age etc, and they choose one?

With China, you make a vaguish request for age, and they choose a child using their own criteria. I've heard they do "face reading" for compatibility, I've heard they use computers, I've heard it's totally arbitrary and random (people requesting infants getting matched with three-year-olds). We've applied for AYAP... "as young as possible". In effect, this means six to 12 months old, since the paperwork takes at least six months to grind through the system.

This relative anonymity has a large downside, as was splendidly illustrated in that Guardian article I quoted about four posts up. In domestic private adoptions (an expensive, legally fraught process), it's possible to have what is called an "open adoption" -- the child knows who biological-mom is, and who adoptive-mom is, and has a very good idea of hir roots.

With a Chinese adoption, that kind of connection to origins is currently impossible. This may change in 10 or 15 years. But currently, a pregnant woman in China is not allowed to abandon a baby, and not allowed to keep a second or third baby without paying a massive increase in taxes (equal to an average person's yearly wage or more). So biological mothers don't want to be found, don't want to be recorded. If you're a Chinese adoptee and you're lucky, you'll have a photo of your "found spot" -- the public place where you were left to be discovered by others. And maybe a few official papers from the local orphanage. That's it. Which is, as I must've said upstream, a heavy thing.
 
 
grant
16:59 / 18.11.03
So, uh, here.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
17:40 / 18.11.03
Beautiful, Grant. Utterly beautiful.
 
  

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