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Nelson Mandela speaks out against the US

  
 
Grey Area
20:56 / 11.09.02
Go Nelson!
From the article:
And Mr Mandela, 84, called some of Mr Bush's senior advisers, including Vice President Dick Cheney "dinosaurs".

He said that the United States' backing for a coup by the Shah of Iran in 1953 had led to that country's Islamic revolution in 1979.

On Afghanistan, Mr Mandela said that US support for the mujahideen (including Osama Bin Laden) against the Soviet Union and its refusal to work with the United Nations after the Soviet withdrawal led to the Taleban taking power.

"If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace," he said.

Personal thoughts on this after I've found and read the Newsweek article this is taken from.
 
 
grant
15:00 / 12.09.02
Will it make a difference, you think?
 
 
MJ-12
15:13 / 12.09.02
not likely. I did rather like this snippet, though

He called Mr Cheney a "dinosaur" and an "arch-conservative" who does not want Mr Bush "to belong to the modern age."

Mr Mandela recalled that Mr Cheney had been opposed to his release from prison.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
20:03 / 12.09.02
Very interesting! Thing is, Mandela is highly respected, and Bush (with his puppy dog Blair) is not just going it alone on his determination to go to war with Iraq, he's really being seen to be going it alone. I think it's important that Mandela has made his views known. As for whether it will make a difference - well, I don't know. Bush appears accountable to no one.
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:57 / 13.09.02
The PM of Canada took me (and apparently many others) by suprise today with these remarks See text here

"And I do think that the Western world is going to be too rich in relation to the poor world. And necessarily, you know, we look upon us as being arrogant, self-satisfying, greedy and with no limits. And the 11th of September is an occasion for me to realize that it's even more"

People who have always disliked Chretien seem to suddenly be in shock.

I remember hearing Mandela after the environmental summit and his speeches along the same line. It's nice to hear from someone who waded into the world of nation-leading and actually emerged apparently morals entact.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
04:25 / 13.09.02
Too bad the same couldn't be said of Winnie Mandela.
 
 
grant
16:11 / 13.09.02
Winnie never "waded" anywhere - she lunged.

So - how's the Newsweek story? Any links to it.
 
 
Milky Joe
13:57 / 03.10.02
I didn't think Osama Bin laden was anything to do with the mujahideen when they enjoyed US support. I think this situation where we look at the US and say they did this and that or supported a country or movement they are now against does not help anybody. The US supported the mujahideen when the main threat to the west was from the Soviet Union now the threat comes form the likes of Osama Bin Laden. The US supported Saddam when Iran was the bigger threat to the West and now Saddam is seen as more dangerous.

We don't question our ties within Europe with Germany yet we spent the first half of the last century with them as our main enemy. So how is this any different to the US and it's change of position as regards certain Islamic states or organisations. A country can only implement policy that is needed at any current time.

I am not saying I support Bush/Blair in there stance on Iraq I just don't think the way many people look at who the US supported in the past has anything to do with the arguement.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:58 / 03.10.02
I don't think Mandela's (wonderful) stance is gonna make ANY difference at all. It's nice to see, though.

And I don't think my objections have so much to do with past US (or indeed UK) "indiscretions"- were the old regime still in power in South Africa, I get the feeling DeKlerk would have been using the "War Against Terrorism" as further backing for attempting to crush the ANC...

And while on the subject, let's not forget that Mandela is a man who has managed to achieve "the impossible"- yes, he wasn't alone in doing it, but he DID spearhead the overthrow of a fascist state. Making it even more of a shame that nobody will probably take any notice of his opinions. (Except Bono, but he doesn't count.)
 
 
Lionheart
03:04 / 04.10.02
Here's the link to the interview...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/806174.asp

See, whenever you want to find a newsweek article online goto www.msnbc.com where those articles are stored. (Cause MSNBC owns Newsweek.)
 
 
Naked Flame
08:50 / 04.10.02
bwfc (how do you pronounce that?) i don't think anyone would disagree with the broad thrust of what you're saying- clearly, one has to be ready to make peace with a former enemy once the fight is over, and an ally who works against you is no longer an ally. However, I think you'd have to acknowledge that what is frequently critiqued on Barbelith is a pattern of US behaviour and policy- that of propping up oppressive regimes or funding groups who violate human rights, so long as they dance to the West's tune, and then acting all surprised and hurt when they turn out to be untrustworthy, dangerous or plain bonkers.

But this isn't the time or the place: check through the Switchboard archives and read hundreds of posts on this...
 
 
illmatic
08:57 / 04.10.02
Did anybody see the Clinton speech the day before yesterday? Seems like the great and good of the world are lining up to take potshots against the hawks in the US...
I don't know if even the arrogance of those in power in the US can stand up against this much criticism. Am I being too optimistic?
 
 
grant
17:36 / 04.10.02
Yes.
 
 
fluid_state
21:50 / 04.10.02
a little too optimistic yeah. I tend to believe criticism of this sort actually strengthens US resolve, at least among the more militant citizenry. A good chunk of the actualization of the American myth revolves around the idea that they do the "right thing" DESPITE the opinion and criticism of other nations. These detractors are taken as an indication that the US is on the right track, because everyone knows Europeans are a bunch of pansies, y'hear? It's a swweping generalization that probably only applies to half the populace, and even then roughly, but the shape of that nutshell fits the puzzle nicely.
 
 
gridley
17:46 / 07.10.02
I agree with Solid State. Criticism = greater resolve with Bush. I suspect that his mentality is something like this: If bad people (i.e. Clinton, Mandella, democrats, Europe) tell you something is wrong, then that means it must be right. Because bad people always have the exact wrong opinion.
 
 
nutella23
18:01 / 07.10.02
According to some accounts, the US deliberately intervened in South African politics to help keep Mandela in prison longer than he was supposed to be (William Blum, "Rogue State"). Also, that the CIA may have been funding the Inthaka Zulu party to help keep things chaotic and divisive in the post-apartheid era. If so, then Mandela would certainly have reason enough to be pissed at the US, not just for reasons having to do with Iraq.
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:37 / 30.01.03
Mandela accuses Bush of arrogance, racism

JOHANNESBURG (AP) — Former President Nelson Mandela called U.S. President George W. Bush arrogant and shortsighted and implied that he was racist for ignoring the United Nations in his zeal to attack Iraq.

In a speech today, Mandela urged the people of the United States to join massive protests against Bush. Mandela called on world leaders, especially those with vetoes in the UN Security Council, to oppose him.

"One power with a president who has no foresight and cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust," Mandela told the International Women's Forum.

Mandela also criticized Iraq for not co-operating fully with the weapons inspectors and said South Africa would support any action against Iraq that was supported by the United Nations.

White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer responded to Mandela's criticism by pointing to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Bush.

"The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently" than Mandela, Fleischer said. "He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust."

A Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mandela has repeatedly condemned U.S. behaviour toward Iraq in recent months and demanded Bush respect the authority of the United Nations. His comments Thursday, though, were far more critical and his attack on Bush far more personal than in the past.

"Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?" he asked. ``All that (Bush) wants is Iraqi oil," he said.

He accused Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the United Nations and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, who is from Ghana.

"Is it because the secretary general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary generals were white," he said.

Mandela said the United Nations was the main reason there has not been a third world war and it should make the decisions on how to deal with Iraq.

He said that the United States, which callously dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan, has no moral authority to police the world.

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings," he said.

"Who are they now to pretend that they are the policemen of the world, the ones that should decide for the people of Iraq what should be done with their government and their leadership?" he said.

He said Bush was "trying to bring about carnage" and appealed to the American people to vote him out of office and demonstrate against his policies.

He also condemned Blair for his strong support of the United States.

"He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer prime minister of Britain," he said

Ouch. Does anyone else here want to hit Ari Fletcher everytime you hear him speak?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:58 / 30.01.03
I'm sure you're all right above the lack of punch Mandela's fine words will have in the Oval Office and on the big US networks but I suspect it's a kick in the balls to Blair which will hurt very hard in his unruly domestic backyard.

Bless him. Not many people prepared to bite the hand that feeds them and South Africa does well out of US largesse. I have friends in America however who will be whooping to hear Mandela's words, even if they know they're going to go to war on the 5th Feb despite all sense.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
21:00 / 30.01.03
I heard on the radio a while ago that Tony Blair had given 'An enigmatic blank stare' to journalists on his plane when asked about Mandela's comments. I reckon Blair probably has a lot of respect for Mandela (it is, however, compulsory for a modern politician to respect good'ol Nelson), and might be a bit thrown by it.

I still doubt it will make any difference.
 
 
Char Aina
21:20 / 30.01.03
Ari Fletcher is who exactly?


nelson mandela is righty to come out and say this, and i am glad he has, but why has he not made similar comments about zimbabwe?

he and Mbeke(the current S.A.President) are both outspoken on occasion regarding other issues. (see for example the world summit, where the president was seen talking to the protestors, and condemned the anarchy of the free market. i cant remember his exact words, but remember feeling enlivened by them.) why then has a comparitively easy to deal with problem like robert mugabe been left alone?

is it because he is a black man?
there was never a problem in decrying the leadership before 64 and the war of independence. all those previous leaders were white though.

(i dont really think he is properly racist, i just think that it is food for thought)

the reality of the situation down there is that without south african support, the country is dead. they control the main electricity to zimbabwe, which arrives by pylon across the border.
they, i believe control much of the south's water supply as well.
as an ally for trading purposes, obvioulsy they are second to none, providing an accesible market for zimbabwean crops.

if they really disapproved of him, why would they not purely cut him off?
if mbeke mad such a move, i can see how he might be jeopardising the safety of his borders. as 'nelson mandela', saviour of the blacks of south africa however, mandela is in a great position to make the situation better, without having to commit an entire country's resources.

(the south african army is also exceptionally strong in comparison to most of its neighbours; the namibian conflict, despte being cofunded by the US as an anti-communist offensive, proved that.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:29 / 30.01.03
You're comparing the US to Zimbabwe. A country in the Western world, an imperialist power that has the capacity to nuke us all in to the ground, to Zimbabwe. Bush has lived a priviledged life and now he's abusing that privilege and the lovely Tony Blair is supporting him and you are somehow relating this to Zimbabwe... Mandela observes the distinction so why don't you?

This won't make a difference to Bush and Blair and those eight countries jumping in to the pit of doom but it damn well makes a difference to me. I've been wallowing in a state of depression for months about this whole sordid affair - France and Germany might fold, they're not particularly good at sticking to their guns, Mandela won't and it's fine to hear someone who is so fucking strong speaking about this. The pope, a fragile old man who doesn't always deal with things in a good manner, Mandela though makes me feel slightly more hopeful because this isn't even about stopping a war for me anymore - it's about getting our idiot Prime Minister out of power. He has ignored all of us, let's rid ourselves of him, he does not deserve his position.
 
 
Char Aina
23:52 / 30.01.03
the only distinctions are those you mention. all of which i concede.

but lets pull back, and ask ourselves why the death of at least six million zimbabweans over the next few years is so far removed from all his talk of holocaust. the starvation of his political enemies, and the economic disaster that mugabe as wrought are both goingto have lasting repercussions in southern africa.

the cause mandella has spoken out for is one that hardly needed his support; it already has the support of millions around the globe. sure, his is a powerful voice, but his power drops significantly outside of africa, and then again outside 'the west'.

i wonder why, when it is counter to human nature, he is more concerned with those further away and less connected to him. most people care more about their back yard than anywhere else, and i would say understandably.



i see why you dont think the issues are really comparable, but i feel that this might be, as with mnost in the UK and the US, you are not aware of the scale of hell mugabe has planned.
bush may be a fundamentalist, but there have been theories for years about mugabe's syphillitic megalomania.

hitler started with his own people. he was insane. he took on the world.
mugabe has started with his own people. although he lacks the might to take on all the world, he might not be averse to a littl C21st guerilla warfare, or terrorism.


seriously, more people are dying than you think, and they are not all white farmers.
 
 
Char Aina
23:54 / 30.01.03
A country in the Western world


and by the way, what does that refer to? what do you see as the difference between an african government and a western government in terms of its responsibilities to the people?
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:58 / 31.01.03
Toksik: Ari Fletcher is who exactly?

Sorry, I meant Ari Fleisher. He's the White House Spokesperson, and a daily source of teeth-gnashing statements:

White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer responded to Mandela's criticism by pointing to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Bush.

"The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently" than Mandela, Fleischer said. "He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust."
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:48 / 31.01.03
Right there, Fleisher is a total wanker if he's implying that Mandela lack's moral courage, "How many years have you spent in prison for your beliefs then?"

Otherwise, "Is it because Kofi Anan am black?" No, I don't think so. I don't think the Bush junta would have treated the UN any differently no matter who was in charge.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:45 / 31.01.03
The difference is that the United States is a first world, privileged country, Zimbabwe is not. It's in an awkward position of social change and the people have been fighting for a very long time, comparing the US to Zimbabwe (or Afghanistan or the former Yugoslavia or Israel or China etc.) is clearly ridiculous. In fact equating most countries with any other country is quite ridiculous, they've grown out of different situations.

Anyway back to the point- Mandela has little to do with this US vs. Iraq thingamy and it means that he can speak out in a way that many others can't but he's terribly involved in the whole Zimbabwe thingamy and it means that he can't speak about that.
 
 
Char Aina
16:49 / 31.01.03
1

Zimbabwe is not. It's in an awkward position of social change and the people have been fighting for a very long time, comparing the US to Zimbabwe (or Afghanistan or the former Yugoslavia or Israel or China etc.) is clearly ridiculous. In fact equating most countries with any other country is quite ridiculous, they've grown out of different situations.

2

Mandela has little to do with this US vs. Iraq thingamy and it means that he can speak out in a way that many others can't but he's terribly involved in the whole Zimbabwe thingamy and it means that he can't speak about that.



1
i dont think that the mugabe regime is all that similar to the bush regime. the connection is that both are doing bad things, and both are going to be responsible for a lot of death.
obviously comparisons are not going to be perfect, but that does not mean they are not valid.
on the one hand you have a problem which would be helped greatly by mandela, and on the other you have one which will still continue to be a problem no matter what he says.

(also, the social change and the continuous fighting you refer to are not really happening, the war was in the sixties, and since then the country has not had any open conflict. likewise, the major social changes happened a long time ago, this is an attempt by a madman to seize as much 'power' as he can, and to crush all opposition.)


2
mandela's position as outside the iraq situation is exactly what i feel makes his stance a fairly impotent one. he may have made tony cry inside, but that is all he will really achieve.
in africa, he is a god like figure to some, a living martyr to the causes of freedom, truth and justice.
besides, when you say he is terribly involved, are you talking about his simply being from next door, and therefore inevitably being caught up in the political wrangling, or is there something he has dne i am unaware of? as far as i was aware, he had kept his cards fairly close on the subject.
 
 
grant
17:20 / 31.01.03
Actually, he does speak out against Zimbabwe.

It's just that Newsweek & the AP Newswire don't particularly care about it when he does.

(It's not a new thing, really. Here's another example, from 2000.)

Also, Mandela's policy (if former leaders can be described as having policies) has always been for diplomatic solutions when dealing with sovereign nations. He's been relatively quiet about Zimbabwe because Zimbabwe isn't invading anyone. It's not starting any wars.
 
 
Char Aina
18:52 / 31.01.03
i understand the "killing your own people, well actually we're fine with that"(izzard) thinking, i just dont agree with it.

south africa could roll over and crush zimbabwe, without even having to resort to a single bullet.


but....

when they came for the farmers, i did not cry out for i was not a farmer. when they came for the MDC, i did not cry out for i was not a member. when they came for the journalists, i did not cry out because i was not a journalist.
when they came for me, there were no zimbabweans left to cry out for me.


know what i'm saying?
if we dont stop the fuckhead (who has barracked almost the entire zimbabwean army in the DRC to protect his diamond mines there), he will not stop himself. he is relying on our reluctance to deny sovereignty to buy him time.

"let mr blair keep his england, and me my zimbabwe" and all that.




fair enough on the corrections regarding mandella though.(grant) his "quiet diplomacy" must just be too quiet for myself to have noticed. however, its not as if he has condemned the leader of Zim, but instead it seems he has been saying "oooh, watch yourself there!". nowhere near like as severe as the "dinosaur" comments and the implied rascism of his more recent statements.
 
 
Char Aina
18:55 / 31.01.03
Mandela, South Africa's first post apartheid president and one of the world’s most revered statesman, said he had reservations about "Mugabe’s use of violence and the corroding of the rule of law". Over 33 people, mainly MDC supporters, were murdered prior to Zimbabwe’s fifth parliamentary election


you see what i am talking about?

hey, buddy, do you mind maybe , you know, if it isnt too much trouble, turning down the volume on your slaughter and stuff? no? oh well, i really think it would be nice if you did...


reservations?
is that just really bad reporting?
 
 
schmee
14:50 / 09.02.03
>> freestyle (mp3)



oh let me tell ya...
i know this little fella,
he makes a moment more angelic than Ma Teresa

his name's Mandela...
a curious little fella,
and you know what, he knows us,
and he even tried to tell ya -

bout the muggers and the campers
and the A-Dults wearin Pampers,
bout the killers and the spin,
and the shit we're getting in

that'll rape ya...
like a pristine f-16
swoopin up, swoopin round,
and flat down on the scene

like a red-carpet, sinsimelia, silver-silk machine
the schools that we build - telling us what we mean
the words are obscene, and they're Xanex serene
and the truth is still ignored like a crack smoking fiend

the foundation...
the ideological iteration,
is the rock solid platform
of this aerospace nation

and limp as the dick
cheney greasing congress,
slip-sliding senate,
'n ashcroft getting on us

this vibe ain't what we're after
deep in rumsfeld's laughter
and that critical wooden dowel,
that Mr. Colin Powell

always getting into trouble,
always burstin up the bubble,
of GOP scare-fare -
the original D.A.R.E. pair

making bucks on the side
saving up for low tide
and drinking sweet martinis,
while they laugh at how they lied

taking pride while they hide
and the people were denied
that's how they make it
putting guilt on your pride
 
  
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