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Underground > Radio & Music >

Um... UN-political music?

03:59 / 11.09.02

Now I've just finished reading 1984. Yup, I know I'm a bit behind, but you get that. Anyway, one of the things that struck me as interesting was the way the party produce what would appear to be pop music to keep the masses oppressed. The example in the book is called "It was only a hopeless fancy" and goes

It was only an 'opeless fancy,
It passed like an Ipril dye,
But a look an' a word an' the dreams they stirred
They 'ave stolen my 'eart awye!

They sye that time 'eals all things,
They sye you can always forget,
But the smiles an' the tears acrorss the years
They twist my 'eart-strings yet!

(All the mis-spelling has something to do with the lady singing it...)

anyway.... my question is, are there any examples that you can think of where music is used as a tool of the oppressor. Obviously, most pop-music could be seen in that light due to its very nature, but music that overtly supports simple hegemonic values and seems to serve no other purpose?

08:07 / 11.09.02

Dunno about that, because if you say that about pop music, you open yourself up to various "what's pop anyway" debates and end up looking a bit po-faced and daft when you're caught doing the hoovering to the sound of Take That.

Couple of different takes on this: What do people think about Pop Idols and the like? The Society of the Spectacle in it's purest form or just a bit of harmless fun? I get a feeling this has probably been debated to death somehere else on this board...

Other music: I'd be suprised to find anybody on this board who wold really defend "Oi!", though at the time it presented itself as an "authentic" (that old chesnut) alternative to poncy middle-class rock music. I quite like the Cocksparrer LP I've got on tape, song material including stuff about working on building sites and being a teenage tea-leaf...
But maybe I just like it cos it's bizarre...

The last thing I heard by them was on a Punk compilation - called "Last Train to Dagenham" ("Waiting for the last train to Dagenham/Had a few beers up West...")

Anyway , before I go completely off topic ...I'm not saying this defends hegomonic values, but that it provides an intesting counterpoint to more mainstream stuff. And a lot of "Oi" (Skrewdriver etc.) is completely reactionary, to put it mildly..

14:42 / 12.09.02

I realise where this could possibly get de-railed into, but I was "trying" to keep some sort of focus. (insert weak excuse here)

I guess what I'm saying, is mainstream music which does nothing except serve the mainstream nice simple "normal" values. It doesn't matter whether you do the vacuuming to it or not.... like I give a toss about what people listen to over their hoover? Anyway, Take That probably sound quite interesting with a bit of suction "noise" over the top...

erm... haven't heard the example you mentioned, but if it "provides an interesting counterpoint to more mainstream stuff" then it serves a purpose other than "supporting hegemonic values".

18:45 / 19.09.02

Not to get off subject or anything, but, going back to what Mr. Illmatic was saying about "Oi!", while there are quite a few bands that are (extremely) reactionary, there are also quite a few bands that promote progessive statements; Sham 69 were, despite their National Front following, a progressive band, a bit simplistic, but progressive none the less, Oi Polloi are anarchists, and not in the Sex Pistols way, but in they have actually ideologies that go beyond smashing things, and there are "Oi!" bands that are members of RASH (Red & Anarchist Skin Heads) and write socialist and anarchist anthems. And most of the early Oi stuff (Blitz, Menace, Business, 4-Skins etc.) simply rocks.
But, anyways, back to the point, there is plenty of music out there with no political tones to it (mainstream and underground), but whether or not it was made as an opiate for the masses probably depends on various people's tastes (no one is going to say that the music they like is a tool of the man, no, everyone listens to the real shit), because I seriously don't think that any of it was made for that purpose.

20:16 / 19.09.02

strangely enough skrewdriver in their earliest incarnation were neither reactionary or rascist, just shit, and thats when they rallied against the "marxist" press.

01:33 / 20.09.02

no one is going to say that the music they like is a tool of the man, no, everyone listens to the real shit

Yeah, true... but surely there is some shite out there that everyone would agree is only there to feed the man. The way I see it, dumb arse music production team (writers, producers, etc) attempt to make something popular, ie. The Backstreet Boys. To do this, they aren't going to be able to make songs that are about burning down churches, or having homosexual relations with sailors, etc. Anything which goes against the grain, is just simply not going to sell in the same way as something that is straight down the line.

eg. The Backstreet Boys. (I randomly picked a song.... from this site)

Don't Wanna Lose You Now

I never thought that I would lose my mind
That I could control this
Never thought that I'd be left behind
That I was stronger than you, baby
Girl if only I knew what I've done
You know, so why don't you tell me
And I, I would bring down the moon and the sun
To show how much I care

Chorus:
Don't wanna lose you now
Baby, I know we can win this
Don't wanna lose you now
No no, or ever again

I've got this feeling you're not gonna stay
It's burning within me
The fear of losing
Of slipping away
It just keeps getting closer, baby
Whatever reason to leave that I've had
My place was always beside you
And I wish that I didn't need you so bad
Your face just won't go away

Chorus

I never thought that I would lose my mind
That I could control this
Never thought that I'd be left behind
That I was stronger than you

Don't want to lose to loneliness
Girl I know we can win
Don't want to lose to emptiness, oh no
Never again

Chorus

Now I guess the question would be: Assuming (and this is a big assumption), that you like this music, how the hell could you argue that this music is doing anything other than maintaining the norm? I mean, the music isn't exactly original, the themes looked at aren't original, none of it is. So its just there to support the current value system, and sell records doing it.

The Return Of Rothkoid

01:57 / 20.09.02

Not entirely. Boyband music exists for marketing purposes first, and value-upholding a very distant second. The "reinvention" of popstars in increasingly "dirty" or "mature" versions (cf Britney, etc) is probably more about playing with image than with parleying value change through output.

I also reckon that you're being a bit nearsighted to claim that the music exists purely for moneymaking purposes. Much music does exist in order to make as much cash as possible, in order to enable musos to eat - and god knows a fuckload of them don't. But that's on the production side; surely the way the audience receives it is equally important? The seas of pre-teen record-buyers enjoy acts that people who've made the shift to other styles are supposed to deride; is their enjoyment merely a happy byproduct of the process, or the point (from their point of view)? I think that despite the company's intention, the way the person feels about it is what makes the difference.

There's a thorny one: does listening to "non-mainstream" music institute stronger value/rule behaviour than mainstream music does? Hmm. Another thread, mayhap.