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Music and Crime

10:14 / 10.09.02

Note: Not "musicial crimes", that would be a whole different debate...

I may be onto a complete non-starter with this one, but I was intrigued by Flyboy's comparison of Biggie Small's music with Scorsee films. Crime narratives have played a massive part in hip hop over the years, I think this is worth noting and debating in it's own right, but that's not what I'm thinking about right now.

What's piquing my interest (and I don't even now what a "pique" is ) is - are there any other genres of music, bodies of artists' work or even specific songs, where crime occupies a similar central position? WHY this might be is a whole other question, but for now I just want to see if anything springs to mind.

No star here laces

11:55 / 10.09.02

Early country has strong thematic resemblances to much roots reggae and dancehall in its preoccupation sex and death and sex-related death.

Similarly, there is a strain of Mexican 'Corrido' folk music called 'Narcocorrido' which deals solely in the exploits of drug traffickers.

One could argue that any modern roots or 'folk' music (not as in badly-dressed middle-class girls with guitars, obviously) is preoccupied with crime. You could extend this thesis further and say that any folk art at any time in history has had a strong connection with criminal activities.

One could then hypothesise that a true community capable of producing folk art must of necessity be somewhat excluded from the channels of power in a society in order to generate the internal cohesion necessary for this sort of expression. Similarly one could say that the resentment generated by being outside of the channels of power would be expressed through this folk art which would make it a logical step to tell tales of those who flaunt the conventions of the society that excludes this community.

No star here laces

11:57 / 10.09.02

Upon uttering this, one would then receive abuse from those who see the argument above as a romanticisation of poverty and misery and indirectly (of course) a slur upon their musical tastes.

12:07 / 10.09.02

I'm more offended that you used "flaunt" when you meant "flout."

Now that's a crime.

12:19 / 10.09.02

Re; specific genres, specific songs: blues most definitely. Passion crimes, as Lyra suggests - Frankie and Jonnie immediately springs to mind. There are even songs of the exploits of specific criminals. Mississippi John Hurt sings a wonderful, wonderful song about Stagger Lee, an accomplice of Jesse James, who shot off the hat of "Billy the Lion" and then shot him dead during a hold up of some coal miners.

12:21 / 10.09.02

Jesus, I'm trying to get "Robin Hood Robin Hood with his merry men..." out of my mind.

13:17 / 10.09.02

Thanks or your responses:
Hir -Yeah, Robin Hood and his Merry Men wasn't what I had in mind either, but you never know what these enquiries will throw up. Actually, there may well be some amazing folk ballads on the theme of Robin (not that terrible fucking Marillion song or whatever it was from the TV series "Robin of Sherwood" though). Terry Melcher (Beach Boys producer) did a marvellous version of "Stagger Lee" on his solo LP Makes my heart strings hum just to think of it (though I don't know if its the same song).

Blues (and country) sprang to mind for me as well, as the music of po' folks, in addition to the whole "Johnny Too bad" thing in reggae. In the recent "Story of Reggae" doc on BBC2 one singer - can't recall who- recalled being forced to write a song bigging up one of the local bad men. On hearing the song for the first time in a local bar, on the chorus "strong like lion" the heavy dude in question grabbed two bottles of beer and smashed them against the wall! I think he was pleased with it.

Lyra: I'd love to hear some of that "Nacrocorriodo"! That'd be party music. Any sources? Yeah, agree with your points in general. I'd add that this convention-flaunting/flouting adds to the power of it's attraction to those safe and unexcluded who're looking for something a bit more authentic/titallating (delete depending on which side of the moral fence you're on - and I include me in this, obviously).See Ice T's whole "Home Invasion" thing. It's interesting though with the kind of mass exposure Hip Hop is geting these days, to see what may have once been "folk narratives" - thereby reaching relatively small groups - spreading through the mass media. Hmmm, no point here but never mind.

I add I suspect we'd find a lot of the same concepts at work in Calypso/Rhumba etc (though I know fuck all about this). Any more thoughts? Or better yet, songs? Could be a great compilation.

13:28 / 10.09.02

Note:
"Caught by the Fuzz" by Supergrass DOES NOT COUNT.

03:33 / 11.09.02

its funny how different "genres" portray the crime(s) differently. Hip-hop tends to be full of macho masturbatory swagger about the gangsta lifestyle. Whereas folk music romanticises crime as perhaps being a necessary evil of life in the lower classes. Metal or Industrial (or similar loud angry musics) nearly always looks at violent crime specifically , and gets so heavily into character that it almost glorifies the actions or gets hung up on the "gore" factor.

I'm trying to think of some examples which don't follow these rules, but I'm drawing blanks at the moment.

anyway... the best songs about crime (in my opinion anyway), are the ones that get into the character or the crime, but don't lose any of the reality.

eg. The Velvet Underground - Heroin

03:34 / 11.09.02

Janes Addiction - Been Caught Stealing!!!

I'm gonna go listen to that now!

No star here laces

09:42 / 11.09.02

Jack - argh, that is awful.

Alex - I think you'll find that the main difference between the way hip hop talks about crime and the way industrial, metal etc. talk about it is that folk music light hip hop addresses crime from the perspective of the perpetrator or the victim, whereas non-folk music uses the perspective of the voyeur. And I'd argue that even when such bands do talk about perpetrating violent acts it is with such a veneer of artificiality that the listener knows to interpret it as voyeurism.

Actually, interestingly, does folk music always become voyeurism in the ears of those who are outside of the culture it springs from?

Mr Illmatic - I was thinking about the difference between hip hop then and hip hop now while watching Biggie and Tupac last night. It's unthinkable (to me anyhow) that those events could happen now. Hip hop artists now seem much clearer about the separation between the reality of their lives as celebrity musicians and the subject matter of the music. I wonder if maybe Biggie and Tupac was in fact the dying spasm of hip hop as folk music. Neither beard-hop nor the polished pop of Nelly and the Neptunes is folk music in the way that Tupac, NWA or Nas were in the early 90s.

13:37 / 11.09.02

Lyra: Haven't watched the doc. yet but I've got it taped. Hopefully tonight. That's a damn good point. I don't know if it's true, but it's a damn good point nonetheless. Maybe the notion of "folk music" articulates the difference between current hip hop and it's predecessors and it's loss has been one of the inevitable consequences of mainstream acclaim and change. In turn, this is why some of the posturing of "da underground" seems a bit empy sometimes, as it's based on a very self-concious re-construction of this lost authenticity, rather than the "real thing". (whatever this is).

I was discussing this with a mate of mine recently, the way that Hip Hop has changed. We were talking about the way hip hop as it appeared to us was now "just another genre". Maybe we're just old b-boy curmudgeons? I've gotta admit I don't listen to as much new Hip Hop as I used to - maybe there's a lot stuff out there that's gonna blow my head - I hope so. What about it - anyone wanna shoot me down in flames with some new shit? Something that sez ssomething new and really on the money about black Amerikkka right now?

There would seem to me to be a definite difference between hip hop and reggae, which seems to have maintained it's "folk" element over the last x amount of years. I'd say this is due to the way it's produced - on a small island relatively free from big music biz connection, with the 7" still the main way of distributing tunes, close links to the dancehall (the punters), with a rapid turnover of tunes, subject matter and artists.

We seem to have disgressed far from crime, but so what? Any more thoughts?

20:21 / 11.09.02

Name a genre that DOESN'T talk about crime.

Oh, and: I think you'll find that the main difference between the way hip hop talks about crime and the way industrial, metal etc. talk about it is that folk music light hip hop addresses crime from the perspective of the perpetrator or the victim, whereas non-folk music uses the perspective of the voyeur.

Thus do I refute you:
I shot a man in Reno,
just to watch him die.

and

Pick up the phone, I'm here alone
Or make a social call.
Come right in, Forget about him
We'll have ourselves a ball

Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
Dirty Deeds and they're done dirt cheap

20:33 / 11.09.02

I stick to classics: Steely Dan have a lot of crime-themed material in their records (off the top of my head - Kid Charlemagne, The Royal Scam, Gaslighting Abby, Cousin Dupree, Don't Take me Alive, Josie... )

But Fagen & Becker generally portray the criminal as the ultimate loser - crime does not count as rebellion in a post-ironic world.

02:46 / 12.09.02

I find it interesting that the song I slapped on the 'mixtape chaingang' tape actually falls right under the topic of this conversation. I want to discuss, but I also don't want to spoil either. Maybe later?

A. Gein wrote: "Whereas folk music romanticises crime as perhaps being a necessary evil of life in the lower classes."

Or any class for that matter.

If speeding was a crime, (it is, isn't it?) then Sam Hagar criminally and blatantly squealed that he couldn't drive fifty-five.

Judas Priest: "Breakin' the law, breakin' the law"

Q: What is the difference between breaking a law and committing a crime?

Also, Lyra, I covet your vast knowledge of music. You must tell us more of this Nacrocorriodo, yes?

Illmatic, a suggestion. It's not 'new' hip hop, but I can listen to the Deltron 3030 cd shamelessly, anything by Del actually. I would put him on one of my top three mc pedestals. Listening to him speak is like reading some of the dicussions on this board sometimes. Very in depth.

06:27 / 12.09.02

07:20 / 12.09.02

Perhaps the worst thing about this board, is whn you're exposed everyone else's knowledge, you end up with a big long list of things to covet. Bio, I NEED those CD's ... no money. Perhaps I'll go hold up a petrol station. Remorse, I'll check for Del as well.

No star here laces

11:03 / 12.09.02

Grant - Johnny Cash is blatantly folk music, so I fail to see your point re my post. For once, I'm not pitting black music against white, simply po' folks music against cultured music (cultured meaning in some sense artificial, whether it be pop, classical or middle class music like indie and beard-hop).

AC DC are an interesting example because although they are Australian, they are kind of part of the folklore of the poor American south, at least from my outsider's perspective. When I said metal I guess I meant more 'modern goth-metal' as in when Cannibal Corpse talk about violence you don't for a second believe that they ever do it, nor would they claim to - the message is that they talk about it, not that they are involved in it. I was getting wrapped up in the industrial context I guess. That would cover Judas Priest too - who are also not from the US.

S'pose like any simple analysis it breaks down under too-close examination.

Bio - you got those records? I have one original 1930s recording of chain gangs recorded somewhere in Alabama which is amazing. You can even hear the noise of the rocks breaking and chains clinking! I'd love to get more if I knew a source. CDs won't cut it tho...

Mr Illmatic - to my mind the best modern folk music about now is UK Garage! Go buy So Solid's "Fuck it" mix...

Remorse - I know very little of Narcocorrido, including never actually having heard it, but I assume it's as insipid as regular Corrido is to non-spanish speakers. Musically I'd think it'd be kind of dull, but the words would tell an interesting story. I just read an article and talked to some peeps - I seriously doubt this stuff is available in the UK.

12:09 / 12.09.02

Hey Lyra: I will checks it out if I gets the chance.
With the folksy thang, I was thinking more in terms of US stuff, my question should perhaps have been something like "Do people still think Hip Hop functions as "ghetto CNN" as Chuck D said? I've a feeling though that with the music as big as Hip Hop is now, there's would be a multitude of answers to this one. On this subject, has anyone heard any responses to 9/11 voiced in Hip Hop?

(Also, I realise I'm going off the topic abstract here - what's the board etiquette here? Start a new thread each time?)

15:12 / 12.09.02

Lyra: The Alan Lomax recordings were first released on vinyl. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find them. The CD's though are very interesting. Not just songs but stories and bits of conversation. And everything is recorded in it's original enviroment. In a lot of the songs, the hammers are keeping the beat.

Ill: Not sure myself, but if you beleave MTV, there really hasn't been one. Though, while it wasn't the subject of a song or anything. Ghostface does talk about it on the new Wu-Tang album.

16:41 / 12.09.02

So you're using folk to include Nashville-produced country, then?
Hmm. I suppose I can see that. The pose (if not the reality) is down & out.

Then again, I think you'll find that pose everywhere in music & narrative in general. It's violations that make story - whether it's the violations of the law or violations BY the law (from 41 shots to, well, all of The Wall). If nothing happens - if no one is frustrated or up against something - then it's not much of a story.

Narcocorrido fucking rocks, if you're into the accordion & the reefer-fueled polka.
I dig Steve Jordan, El Huracan.
They call him the Jimi Hendrix of the accordion.

For me, it's the eyepatch:

In his case, as in the cases of Fela Kuti and, well, the Beatles in Japan, he's actually done a lot of the crimes he sings about - mainly having to do with smoking dope or sneaking it past authorities.

He's a little different from most of them narco singers, in that I don't think he does straight corridos about the cartels - more of conjuntos about his own adventures with the law.

Then again, drug crimes aren't quite the same as, say, being a psycho killer. (Qu'est Que C'est?)
Or not being able to take Mondays.
Or youth gangs.

Or just cold-blooded murder, 1780s style.

18:58 / 19.09.02

About half of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album is about crime, and none of that sissy-ass drug crime, no, only good ol' fashion violent crimes stemming from pent up rage from getting laid off there.
And Lyra, When Judas Priest sings about "Breaking the Law" I find it much more believable (as they talk about dissillusionmnent, frustration and not being understood as reasons why they commit their crime) than Johnny Cash shooting a man (just to watch him die). Not that I'm against Johnny Cash or anything, his songs are great, it's just not as believable as Judas Priest.

20:56 / 19.09.02

I always thought the title track of "Nebraska" was about these two.

I like doing songs about things like that.

17:36 / 07.01.03

*bump*

Someone just phoned me to tell me this is on in less than an hour. I don't know whether it will be archived, or whether it will be any good.