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New Forms of Magick

 
  

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nutella23
18:49 / 09.09.02
Actually, this is a two-parter. Firstly, I have heard that some consider chaos magick to be passe' now. If that is indeed the case, what praytell is /are the new form(s) of magick that people are developing/practicing?

Secondly, what is the best place to start from if one is interested in practicing? Is sigilization neccessarily the only road for beginners?
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
18:55 / 09.09.02
errr, i might be wrong, but isnt chaos magick just an idea in which you do what you want to get results, assimilate/maake up techiniques to form your own system of beleifs and practices.

jesus, who would consider forms of magic to be passe'... probably people who dont practice too much (damm now your all gona prove me wrong)
 
 
enough
19:05 / 09.09.02
Ha - well put Staab '�'
 
 
nutella23
19:47 / 09.09.02
Errr...maybe I worded this wrong. I guess what I'm wondering is what direction magick is taking these days: new techniques, what is considered the "bleeding edge" now, that sort of thing.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
21:08 / 09.09.02
Acording to Peter J Carol - we have entered the Pandamonaeon, leaving us pretty much in the realm of chaos magic right now. I see the intergration of science-technology-magic...a sort of Metascience. The end of ritual and the onslaught of "socially acceptable magic" through "gadgets". Techno-shamanism!

But I could be wrong.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
21:10 / 09.09.02
Best starting points in my opinion:

1) Real Magic by P.E.I. Bonewitz

2) Lieber Kaos, Lieber Null and Psychonaut, Psybermagick - Peter Carol

3) New Millenium Magic - Donald Tyson

4) Quantum Psychology by Robert Anton Wilson
 
 
Lionheart
02:29 / 10.09.02
Sttab: You're right.

Nutella:

I see magick mixing more with technology. To me yoga and meditation are considered magick. Thereby I consider biofeedback to be a sort of magick. It's like a mixture of meditation and technology. Magick and technology mixing in such a way that it seems perfectly natural. The technoccult. So it seems to me that the future of magick is when technology will become a normal part of magick. You could use a candle or some sort of strange light machine. Instead of using a flickering candle you coiuld use a strobe light. Using whatever opens up more possibilities and is easy to use and obtain.
 
 
Rev. Wright
03:44 / 10.09.02
Maybe along this direction, pour moi.



Merci, Valis
 
 
illmatic
08:00 / 10.09.02
I don't know if it's so much that Chaos Magick is passe, rather that the sense of innovation and creativity that initially accompanied it have faded. I think Chaos Magick used a lot of the older traditions to define itself against and now it seems that it itself is a "tradition" (and a key element of the "trad" might be the focus on sigils). None of this is suprising, after all it's been over 20 years since Liber Null first came out, and you can't keep a revolution going for ever.

Anyway, to ask and answer my own questions, who says you need to innovate all the time anyway? Making any magickal system//technique/whatever real for you is enough, whether it's shiny and brand new or ten thousand years old. I think indvidual practioners aae just going to dig deeper into their respective traditions.A good example of this might be Joel Biroco's Kaos mag (There's a thread somewhere), which is drawing on John Dee/Enochian and Crowley to do something new.
 
 
illmatic
08:06 / 10.09.02
More thoughts: Dave Lee's book "Chaotopia" was the last really book on Chaos Magick I saw, and that was a couple of years ago. It's been reprinted by Madrake of Oxford.

To answer your question, Nutella, I'd just say read widely for a bit and go with whatever floats your boat. Bit of a cop-out answer, I'm afraid.
 
 
Seth
15:49 / 10.09.02
I'm in agreement that innovation isn't the point, although sometimes it's a necessary tool to get rid of old usless prejudice that's built up. There's so much old material to investigate that it gets dizzying. I find it best follow the line of least resistance, seeing what subjects suggesting further research show up naturally, and follow the trail of the synchronous. If I were to name a general trend, it would be the increasing tendency for individuals to find their own practise rather than subscribing to any pre-existing system.
 
 
nutella23
18:11 / 10.09.02
Thanks for the feedback. I had a feeling that technology and magickal practice would merge in various ways, given what some folks are already doing with computers ("cybermagick"). Also, some of the stuff the TOPY folks have already done kind of pointed in this direction. Digital multimedia certainly holds many possibilities for innovation, I am interested particularly in multimedia enviroments and synasthesia, kind of going beyond the idea of raves into new territory.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
23:05 / 10.09.02
Chaos Magick used a lot of the older traditions to define itself against and now it seems that it itself is a "tradition" (and a key element of the "trad" might be the focus on sigils).

I find that to be a wise statement Mr.Illmatic.
 
 
illmatic
09:55 / 11.09.02
Re xxx - thank you.
Exp - yup, agree with you. Perhaps Chaos Magick has done it's job, in shaking loose lots of old predjudice and dogma.
Not sold on the techno-magick thing. TOPY put out some stuff on this years back and not much seems to have happened as a result. Perhaps this stuff works best on a group/public level ie gigs and raves, but isn't so useful in personal practice?
 
 
cusm
12:27 / 11.09.02
I get the impression that today's Magick is a more personal effect, one experienced by the individual rather than the more orthidox forms of the past. What have we seen so far? First there was the dominance of the church, and magick practice and research was a secret and persecuted art. Then we have organizationa like the GD and Thelema, where magick "came out" as it were, but followed the same patterns of organization and control over its congregation even while preaching a mandate of personal freedom. Along comes Gerald Gardner and the like, who translated magick for the hippy revolution, the first of pop magick, though retained a gradient system of initiation. However, this broke down into a decentralized neo-pagan movement of family oriented traditions and individual practicioners. Next, Chaos Magick further encourages independent practice, not as a resort to failing to find a coven but as a path unto its own. More, the mandate of personal freedom is expressed and embraced. Peter Carroll follows this up by forming yet another hermetic institution, the IOT. Do they never learn?

During all of this, eastern mysteries are slowly integrated, starting with Crowley and earlier, and having a big boom in the 60s and 70s as popular culture thought of anything to do with enlightenment or mystic wisdom to have come from the East. Follow a migration of seekers to India to bring back the secrets of Yoga, Taoism, and Zen. Note that each of these was presented within a strict orthidox structure of their own, but set free in the west became almost generic tools anyone could pick up, and do. See the thread on meditation for some examples of how diffused this has become in pop culture today. These concepts have since worked their way into many aspects of pop magick, and all have to do with personal growth and enlightenment and experience of divinity as a personal experience rather than as a church.

Looking at all this, the direction Magick has been taking is away from orthidox institutions and structured initiations and towards the individualized experience of each person on their own path to enlightenment. The walls of secrecy are breaking down. The taboos are being ignored. Magick is for everyone, and it doesn't matter how you do it. The direction is pop, ambient education of the masses of magickal ideas and reality, and a shift towards magickal reality as more of the norm. The children are growing up, and no longer need their parental churches. We are coming into our own. The child Horus is us. We don't need gods because we are gods, and we understand the mysteries of divinity on our own, and act accordingly.
 
 
cusm
12:33 / 11.09.02
And yea, I think the natural expression of all of this is a form of neo-shamanism. The rave culture is pounding the same path the hippies did in many ways, but doing it with more power and intensity. If the message continues to echo, I suspect it will grow louder with each manifestation. Techno-shamanism/paganism is an interesting approach to things, and a natural progresion from current ideals. I think the technology of the modern day is transforming us more than we suspect. As communication between us increases, we learn unity and start acting more as a group than individuals. Its hard to say where that might go, many theories of possble techno-transcendence have been thrown about for years. But one thing we know, the future is ours, and our responsibility to shepherd.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:04 / 11.09.02
Today's magic is about plugging directly into the source of power and utilizing it...Sourcery if you will.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
07:33 / 12.09.02
I have observed to trends in Magick practice. The push forward that cusm explains so well, and the reach back.

Golden dawn reached back to John Dee's Enochia
The Great Beast reach back for Egyptian mythology and Gematria
Austen Osman Spare reached back in his own mind
Pete Caroll reached back for spare's sigils and oto organization
Joel Bircocco reached back for crowley and enochia.

What is useful for the next magick to reach back for?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
07:34 / 12.09.02
Grant Morrison keeps reaching back for Horus.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:00 / 12.09.02
Interesting thread, I think the nail was hit on the head with the comment about Liber Null being 30 years old and it being difficult to keep a revolution going indefinitely.

I don't think Chaos Magick as a meta-paradigm or a collection of techniques can really be considered passe, but I think it inevitably has to take it's place in historical context as a stage of development - otherwise there can't be any real progress beyond its constraints. I think it's quite hard to talk about 'the constraints of Chaos Magick' as if it were something solid and concrete as its very nature dictates that it means something different for everyone. But I do think it has certain limitations as an approach (I don't really want to get into arguing what these limitations may or may not be, as it's all subjective to the individual practitioner and everyones road is different).

I wouldn't really identify myself as a Chaos Magician anymore, but the ideas and perspectives of chaos magic haven't gone anywhere, the revolutionary ideas of chaos magic have informed my work and led me to form my own style which isn't really recognisable as chaos magick (tm) anymore. I just think of myself as a magician.

I think this whole thing someone said about reaching back to the source is really inciteful, I really think magic is magic is magic - and the 9th Aeon Post-Post-Chaote-TechnoCyberIlluminate is working with much the same forces as the first stone age shaman. They just use different language and tools to describe what they're doing. So for me, the next stage of progression, is about building on chaos magic rather than transcending it. I'm not so much interested in exploring ultra-modern cutting edge combinations of magick and technology, as I am with getting to the heart of things. Connecting up with the source.
Chaos Magick has taught me that all different schools and paradigms of magic are different perspectives on very similar forces, and I'm more concerned with becoming very very good at interacting with these forces, than I am with inventing the next ultra-modern perspective on them.
 
 
ciarconn
16:23 / 12.09.02
I would say that chaos magick is a magickal system that willfully takes advantage of the (conscioussly known) magick metaparadigm (that is the basic ontological structure of mind-reality). Thus, might be more advanced than older systems, but not necesarily better. Techno magick might be a jump back, since it seems to relate again/and depend on objects
 
 
nutella23
16:26 / 12.09.02
Just to clarify, does chaos magick include such systems as the freestyle shamanism of Jan Fries?
 
 
cusm
16:54 / 12.09.02
Technically, chaos magick is a meta-system, not a system of its own. Its about using what you like from other systems or making up your own (chaos), while trying to isolate what works to understand the basic rules involved (Magick) such as sigilization.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
03:44 / 13.09.02
Maybe magic is evolving towards The books of magic's John Constantine surfing the waves o' Synchronicity. Or that It is evolving toward the magic discused in A discussion on juxtapositional magick from Joel Biroco's Kaos 14
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
09:10 / 13.09.02
"I wouldn't really identify myself as a Chaos Magician anymore"

thats an interesting point...ive never considered myself to be a chaos magician... or anything else. i practice astral projection, im not a astral projector.

as things become closer and smaller dues to communications, travel, etc evetually, will magic become an exact science?... most serious magical practices and schools from all over the world have very similar results, but with slightly different practices... my only real field of expertise is OBE's/astral projection, and all the different techiniques do the same thing...to put the mind into a trance state, somewhere between sleep and awakwe, then will yourself out of your body (or even just slip out).

perhaps techno-magic is the next plausable step...i suppose its been with us for a while, using hemi-sync tapes, brain wave generators and modern drugs...i keep on getting synchronicities about sound waves of a certain frequency induceing OBE's (no i dont mean in the way BWG's or hemisync tapes work)

its not what you do, its the results you get...isnt something similar to that at the core of chaos magick?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:51 / 13.09.02
At the risk of sounding like a broken record:

Chaos Magick, like most others, is instrumental. It's goal-orientated, dictative, and it's about constraining the world to do what you want. It's the typical shape of the Enlightenment: using the mind to control the universe. It's oddly patriarchal, old-fashioned, and trad.

To find a magic that's 21st Century, don't look for a new tool, a new methodology. Look for a magic that's got a modern philosophy behind it.
 
 
illmatic
10:47 / 13.09.02
Nutella: I think Jan Fries would call himself a Thelemite, just to confuse matters.

Nick: With regards to philosophy behind Chaos Magick, post-modernism seems to have been an influence, with the notion of a plurality of approaches rather than one right way. I concede it is still goal directed though. At least that's what's written about it, this may be very different from what's experienced. Funny that this emerged out of the work of Austin Spare as I don't see his thinking as like this at all. Taoist if anything, whcih is hardly 21st Century.

When you say "a modern philosophy", what do you mean? have you seen any magicakl practice that draws on this? What elements from modern philosphy should a 21st Century magick take on board?
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:09 / 13.09.02
....tonight a taster of Neo-Shamanic Techno Magick



More to come on October 11th 2002, I'll be keeping you all posted
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:23 / 13.09.02
Illmatic: Chaos magick's plurality is of method - of tradition. The magical project itself goes largely unexamined. So you ask me whether I've seen a magical practice which draws on a more up-to-date notion of the world, and I want to question whether a magical 'practice' could exist under such a notion. D'ye see?

Incidentally, Daoism is weirdly post-modern in flavour, and in some ways fits very well with the 21st Century, but people tend to pick and chose the bits they want...which is also Chaos Magick's failing. It's gratification-based. The I-Want Culture in magical form. Maybe magic needs the equivalent of a Slow Food movement.
 
 
Persephone
13:32 / 13.09.02
Maybe magic needs the equivalent of a Slow Food movement.

That is cool. What would that be like?
 
 
illmatic
14:04 / 13.09.02
Nick: Interesting points. I do understand what you're getting at it (I think).
This may be the same as the point I mentioned above about one's experience vs. the way the "tradition" is presented in it's literature. It's never been my experience that I've got exactly what I wanted or anticipated from magick. Wait, a quote!

"But you know that actually they didn’t happen in the way magic ought to - ‘I just want this to happen and I make it happen’. Very little have I managed to achieve in that way, life has a habit of springing surprises however hard you try to direct it. Some of those surprises are uncannily close to what you asked for, and yet they have a way of occurring which is not what you expected. I am very much aware of what is happening to me and it’s a sort of theme which occurs in fairy stories; the wish is granted but it doesn’t work out the way it was meant to. I think it must be a cosmic law that that should happen"

Ramsey Dukes Interview, Phil Hine's site.

This seems more akin to my experience, indeed when anything has happened at all, rather that big boss man/ mighty magus. If magick isn't about suprise, and growth based on that, then what is it about?
This is kinda why I'm interested in more meditational/ devotional practices, rather than "results magick". This fit in with what you mean?

Incidentally, in Jan Fries boo, mentioned above, he recounts going blind (temporarily) after trying too hard to force results, which he's gone back to the whole notion of "True Will".
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:42 / 13.09.02
I'm not sure. You'd have to expand on that a bit. But it seems to me that if you want to look for a new way of doing things, you have to look at ethos, not at methodology. Chaos Magick is about inclusive and relative methods, after all.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:55 / 13.09.02
Maybe magic needs the equivalent of a Slow Food movement.

That is cool. What would that be like?


Slow Magick. I like it a lot...

Slow food is dedicated to the pleasure of real food, and preserving the diversity of local/traditional foodstuffs and methods of preparation.

Applying this to magickal practice, I see group ritual for the purpose of honoring the seasons, basking in group energy and convivial feelings, drawing more magick into the mundane world and increasing the amount of synchronicity and weird, making the mundane world a better place to fully be in. It sounds remarkably Wiccan/Neo-pagan in some ways - are there differences??
 
 
Funktion
06:44 / 12.02.03

I see magick mixing more with technology. To me yoga and meditation are considered magick. Thereby I consider biofeedback to be a sort of magick. It's like a mixture of meditation and technology. Magick and technology mixing in such a way that it seems perfectly natural. The technoccult. So it seems to me that the future of magick is when technology will become a normal part of magick.


I don't know if it's just technology though...

Neuro-linguistic Programming is very "in" among certain subsets of the 'mundane' world and it is a powerful form of magick too IMO.

part of the future is a just the cycle of re-phrasing of concepts for the new generation...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:59 / 13.02.03
"I see magick mixing more with technology."

But is that really a new form of magick? I mean, I use a butaine lighter to light the candles on my altar. I don't think we'll see anything new simply by using new tools. I use a Starman badge for my pentacle and try and summon Jean Grey. It's still just dressing up old-skool ceremonial magick in a fancy frock and setting it lose and "new and improved".

I think part of the problem stems from people's unwillingness to believe or practice something that dosen't have roots in something old. I mean 70% (number pulled out of my ass) of Wiccans believe they're practicing the world's oldest religion. Chaos Magicians know that the techniques they're using are just old ceremonial and shamanic tricks... it's hard to a) come up with something truly modern and then b) make it work.
 
  

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