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Civil Rights vs. War on Terror: the simple list.

 
 
grant
15:36 / 09.09.02
This here's the AP story.

Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.


So -- are there any left?
 
 
tango88
16:00 / 09.09.02
The whole idea of calling it the Patriot Act is a direct insult to the American people. Surely, in America, a true patriot would give his life to defend the very freedoms that have been taken away under this act. i feel like I'm stating the obvious.

What the fuck if the American public can be fooled with a simple play on words- there's no hope.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:15 / 09.09.02
I think the unspoken justification is that Ashcroft can be trusted to violate only the rights of Brown People, and Evil Brown People at that -- well, Evil Brown People and Misguided White People Who Succor Evil Brown People, but the Misguided White People Who Succor Evil Brown People will face temporary inconvenience, provided they're only Misguided, not Evil. If they're Evil, they might as well be Brown.

Isn't it becoming clearer, even in the monolithic corporate news media, that the Bush Administration is a junta? Can't we expect that the '04 elections will see this junta out of power? What legal recourse can be effective before then? Or, for that matter, what illegal recourse? What do you want from us, grant?
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
16:33 / 09.09.02
A damn shame indeed. Muslims are afraid to go prayer services because FBI agents camp outside.

Wondering when the Supreme Court will step in. Will they step in? Someone wanna sue Ashcroft to get the test case rolling?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:45 / 09.09.02
You mean the Supreme Court that put the current administration in power? It usually bugs me to hear this oversimplification perpetuated, but I know I'd think twice before bringing an anti-DOJ case before this Court.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
17:04 / 09.09.02
You know, better to do it sooner than later. I do not want 43 putting a new Justice on the bench.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:21 / 09.09.02
Fine, but how? Impeachment only gets you Cheney. Lawsuits only get you Scalia.
 
 
gridley
20:58 / 09.09.02
What happens when they invesitgate me for terrorism, and find no evidence, but do discover I'm... oh... a safecracker. Can they act on non-terrorism related crimes if they're breaking my civil rights in the name the war against terror?

Somebody'll dismantle this blasphemy eventually right? Right?
 
 
rakehell
00:56 / 10.09.02
A related story from here.

Poll shows free speech support down

By AMBER McDOWELL, Associated Press

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Support for the First Amendment has eroded significantly since Sept. 11 and nearly half of Americans now think the constitutional amendment on free speech goes too far in the rights it guarantees, says a poll released Thursday.

The sentiment that the First Amendment goes too far was already on the rise before the terrorist attacks a year ago, doubling to four in 10 between 2000 and 2001.

The poll found that 49 percent think the First Amendment goes too far, a total about 10 points higher than in 2001.
"Many Americans view these fundamental freedoms as possible obstacles in the war on terrorism," said Ken Paulson, executive director of the First Amendment Center, based in Arlington, Va., which commissioned the survey. Almost half also said the media has been too aggressive in asking the government questions about the war on terrorism.
The center, which also has offices in Nashville, asked the University of Connecticut's Center for Survey Research and Analysis to measure views about the First Amendment.
The poll of 1,000 adults was taken between June 12 and July 5, and has an error margin of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
The researchers said they designed this year's survey, in part, to test the "public's willingness to tolerate restrictions on the First Amendment liberties during what they perceive to be wartime."
They found that 48 percent of respondents agreed the government should have the freedom to monitor religious groups in the interest of national security - even if that means infringing upon the religious freedom of the group's members. Forty-two percent said the government should have more authority to monitor Muslims.
The survey also found a significant dip in the number of people who believe newspapers should freely criticize the U.S. military about its strategy and performance. Fifty-seven percent were supportive this year, compared to 69 percent in 2001.
Seven in 10 respondents agreed newspapers should publish freely, a slight drop from 2001. Those less likely to support newspaper rights included people without a college education, Republicans, and evangelicals, the survey found.
Republican respondents also were more likely than Democrats or Independents to see the news media as too aggressive in seeking war information from government officials.

Among other poll findings:

- About four in 10 favored restrictions on the academic freedom of professors to criticize government military policy during war. Twenty-two percent strongly supported such restrictions.

- While 75 percent considered the right to speak freely as "essential," almost half, 46 percent, supported amending the Constitution to prohibit flag burning.

- Sixty-three percent rated the job the American educational system does in teaching students about First Amendment freedoms as either "fair" or "poor." Five percent rated the educational system's job in this area as excellent.
 
 
tango88
01:12 / 10.09.02
"Poll shows free speech support down "

Incredible. And the sad thing is that in the part of the world that I live in, the US is held up by pro-democracy activists as a model. However, whenever the US blunders like this, our government says "See- for all their preaching, now the US is copying our style of government." Sad.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:00 / 10.09.02
Scary. Very scary. I hate to even suggest this, but might Jim Keith have been right all along? Oh... except that he thought the UN and FEMA would be the ones to wade in and suspend the constitution. Rather than the US government suspending both the constitution and anything but lip service to the UN. Same principle, though. (And, on reading his stuff on detention camps and what-have-you being set up a few years back, I was more inclined to think they'd be used for "dissidents" etc.- for which read Muslims, basically right now, rather than, as he was convinced, people who refused to give up their guns.)

btw- tango88, which part of the world do you live in?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:24 / 10.09.02
Wanna hear something crazy? A few months ago I was talking to Hosein, the guy who owns the bodega in the building I was living in at the time (and who introduces himself as Hassan), and he said that, while he does sometimes worry about being treated unfairly by law enforcers, he thinks the US govt has a right and a mandate to act this way. He suggested any good muslim would agree. An innocent man, if persecuted in this way, would rely on Allah for strength and love his persecutors.

Seriously, that's what he said.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:50 / 10.09.02
That does kind of make sense, Qalyn... one of the reasons I gave up on Xtianity was that forgiveness got left out of the curriculum somewhere.
 
 
tango88
15:26 / 10.09.02
CM- I live in Malaysia now but I've lived in quite a few countries before this. I lived in America for seven years so I'm quite well versed in US politics. The last time I was in the US was November and it was quite crazy, the first time I've been afraid to voice my opinions in public. (A lot of Americans don't want to discuss WHY they were attacked and whether or not the attacks were justified on any level.)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:58 / 11.09.02
A lot of Americans don't want to discuss WHY they were attacked and whether or not the attacks were justified on any level

There's no justification for hijacking civilian airplane and crashing it into a civilian office tower. I mean, I know what you're saying, the rhetoric (sorry Haus) of calling our enemies 'freedom haters' and 'evil doers' is hypocritical, but the men & women killed that day didn't deserve it.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:04 / 11.09.02
There's no justification for hijacking civilian airplane and crashing it into a civilian office tower. I mean, I know what you're saying, the rhetoric (sorry Haus) of calling our enemies 'freedom haters' and 'evil doers' is hypocritical, but the men & women killed that day didn't deserve it.

No, indeed. And the men and women who have died in Afghanistan and Iraq, and who will die when the carpet bombs fall in the next engagement won't deserve it either, and the deaths of each set who don't deserve it will serve to justify the deaths of the next in the minds of one side, while the other sees only unprovoked aggression.

Consider:

...the street had been replaced by a crater; people hundreds of yards from the point of contact left not even their scorched shadows, which the dead at Hiroshima had left. There were pieces of limbs and the intact bodies of children thrown into the air by the blast; their skin had folded back like parchment. Strange anxieties crowded the mind: I was worried I might step on somebody and disturb the dying. But they were all dead; instead, I slipped on the shank of a water buffalo.

(Pilger, New Rulers)

Carpet bombing leaves a messy residue. It was, incidentally, 'the best and most effective weapon' against certain targets in Afghanistan, according to UK Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon.

The justifications offered for the September 11th attacks are as meaningless to the US as our justifications for the deaths on the Basra Road during the Gulf War.

In the last two days before the ceasefire, American bulldozers were ruthlessly deployed, mostly at night, to bury Iraqis alive in their trenches, including the wounded. Six months later, New York Newsday disclosed that three brigades of the US First Mechanised Infantry Division 'used snow plows mounted on tanks and combat earth movers to bury thousands of Iraqi soldiers - some still alive - in more than seventy miles of trenches.' A brigade commander, Anthony Moreno, said 'For all I know, we could have killed thousands.'...

...at least 100,000 Iraqi soldiers had been killed. [Schwarzkopf] offered no estimate of civilian casualties.


We don't separate civilians from soldiers when we strike at their infrastructure - we call them 'collateral damage' and 'unavoidable losses'.

The destruction of the WTC was an act of terrible malice and rage, hideous, violent, ghastly, and bloody. It was not, alas, unique, unequalled, unsurpassed, or uncommon for all that.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:14 / 11.09.02
Agreed, Nick. I don't pretend my own government has any justification. States are amoral, at least in human terms*. The only reason "they" pretend otherwise is to retain legitimacy. The curious question is, what state acted on 9/11/01?

*Could you argue that the expediences of statecraft are a realtive moral system? Off topic, I imagine.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:17 / 11.09.02
Apologies - didn't mean to derail the thread.

My position would be that if you repeal the rights America is composed of, the enemy wins by default. That if you wish to prevent recurrence of the monstrosity of September 11th, you have to listen, not rule out certain aspects of debate. Every country on Earth appears to do things which cannot be justified - and each thinks its own position on these issues is unimpeachable.

Want peace? Must see yourself through the eyes of the person least likely to trust you. Because that's who you have to be at peace with.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:03 / 11.09.02
Apologies - didn't mean to derail the thread.

Actually, I think I started it. Tango88 struck a nerve.

I guess we're discussing POV's and justifications as a reason, sufficient or not, for suspending civil rights in this way.

It's not the business of a state to be at peace or to be concerned with our rights, except insomuch as these things help it retain legitimacy. That is, it should strive for these things or people will stop supporting it. However, it also has to provide as much security and prosperity as it can.

The point in my previous post was that the "evil doers" do not appear to represent a state, are not interested in legitimacy, and can't be dealt with politically. I don't think it's a clear us/them issue -- I think there's a serious overlap between "us" and "them" and it's the overlapping part that's mucking things up. I also don't think motive, in this case, has as much to do with ideological conflict as with Macchiavellian international capitalism. Note international.
 
 
tango88
03:23 / 12.09.02
I think I might strike another nerve here but I just wanted to say that under certain circumstances there might be justification for civilian deaths in armed conflict. And many Arabs see September 11 as one of these circumstances.

On the other hand, I don't see defense as a justification for suspending civilian rights. What's more, it's even more dangerous when it's pushed through with language/mind manipulation such as calling the attacks 'an attack on our freedom' whenit's got bugger all to do with that. (Sorry, maybe a little off topic by the end there.)
 
 
Hieronymus
02:00 / 22.07.03
Patriot Act Abuses Documented by the Department of Justice

WASHINGTON (AP) - Justice Department investigators found that 34 claims were credible of more than 1,000 civil rights and civil liberties complaints stemming from anti-terrorism efforts, including allegations of intimidation and false arrest.

According to a report Monday, Glenn A. Fine, the Justice Department's inspector general, looked into allegations made between Dec. 16, 2002, and June 15 under oversight provisions of the USA Patriot Act. Many complaints were from Muslims or people of Arab descent who claimed they were beaten or verbally abused while being detained.
 
 
alas
17:50 / 23.07.03
It's not the business of a state to be at peace or to be concerned with our rights, except insomuch as these things help it retain legitimacy. That is, it should strive for these things or people will stop supporting it. However, it also has to provide as much security and prosperity as it can.

That's a Machiavellian sort of truth, I suppose. According to the ideals of the founding of the United States, however, as encapsulated in the Declaration and the Bill of Rights to the Constitution, the above comment has it precisely ass-backwards: a state MUST not interfere with our "inalienable" rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, with which all human beings are "endowed" by our "Creator"--i.e., those rights are a birthright, non-negotiable, even sacred. Any state that interferes with those rights is ILLEGITIMATE, and, if worse comes to worst, may face revolution if it continues ignoring human rights.
 
 
pachinko droog
15:50 / 24.07.03
I think that the truly frightening (and subtly implied) thing here is that the US is now one terrrorist act away from full-scale martial law. (Actually, I think that the "Code Red" color alert pretty much IS martial law.)

Some may find that a bit over the top in terms of implications, but consider that during the 1992 riots in LA after the Rodney King verdict, there were tanks on the streets of Los Angeles. Yeah, they were National Guard, but still...tanks? So, no, I don't find it inconceivable that this country could become a fascist's wet dream.

The other frightening aspect is that most Americans would probably welcome such a response to another terrorist act, including rounding up Muslims/Arabs/people who look like they "might" be of mideastern descent along the lines of Japanese internment during WWII. You'd be surprised how many seemingly "rational" folks could just snap and find that an acceptable way of dealing with the situation,

I mean, how many people anticipated the Nazi party and the holocaust? Many well-educated, intelligent, and seemingly rational people found nothing wrong with Nazi party ideas and went along with them, willingly. Of course, there were exceptions (like the communists, the White Rose society, small partisan groups during the war, that kind of thing), but overall, most of Germany's intelligenstsia, certainly a majority of its middle class embraced Nazi ideology whole-heartedly.

Something to keep in mind, at any rate.
 
  
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