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I say POW, you say terrorist suspect...

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:23 / 12.01.02

Redefinition of the term "goalposts"...

Is it just me, or is Bush making up the rules as he goes along? We (the "West") can now declare war on abstract concepts. Drugs, terrorism... you name it. We can then, having failed to carry out our military objective (ie the capture of UBL), declare victory. But carry on bombing anyway. And that, allegedly, makes this a "war". But prisoners taken during this "war", aren't legally classed as "prisoners of war".
Sorry, how does that work again?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

16:09 / 12.01.02

Since the Bush people haven't gotten war declared legally and are using the fight against terrorism to pretty much do whatever they want, I'm not shocked at anything that goes on anymore.

I'm shocked that no one in the US seems to want to speak out against it...and for all the talk of hwo the world changed, the US citizens are going back to being navel gazing reactionaries who care more about their SUVs than what is going on in the world.

16:21 / 12.01.02

Its been nice knowing the two of you. Hope they let you post from your new cells.

18:27 / 12.01.02

I'm shocked that no one in the US seems to want to speak out against it...and for all the talk of how the world changed, the US citizens are going back to being navel gazing reactionaries who care more about their SUVs than what is going on in the world. – Solitaire Rose

I'm shocked that I've been posting on this board for six months and it STILL PISSES ME OFF when all US citizens get lumped into one category, usually the "stupid/clueless/ignorant" category. I should be used to it by now. Although I sure do wish I was as rich and secure as so many of you seem to think Americans are...

Many Americans are indeed against Bush and his cronies, the attacks on Afghanistan, and the inhumane treatment of the POWs/suspects. It shouldn't suprise anyone that the American media makes little or no mention of any dissent from US citizens. The events of last year has made it painfully clear to many of us that our opinions and choices don't matter, which is humiliating and tends to sap ones' energy and drive. Many people don't know what to do. Some feel the old methods of protest don't work anymore, and are trying to think of new ways to get our point across. Many of us are scared shitless.

Some of us are doing shit, but you'll never hear or know about it. Which is good – some things are best kept secret.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:00 / 12.01.02

Sorry, Ierne... I don't mean to give the impression that I hate American people. I just hate the US government's foreign policy. And I also hate the UK's foreign policy. I tried to avoid confusion/offense by using the inverted commas in "the West".
As an anarcho-syndicalist, I hate all of this shit as much as you do. And I'm not about to blame it on anyone's "citizens".
Sorry... I was bout to get all sincere and apologetic then, but I just realised you were responding to SR's post. Though I'm still leaving all of the above, 'cos I know how out of hand these things tend to get, and I'd like everyone to know, before it starts, that I DON'T HATE ANY OF YOU.
ANYWAY... matters of nationality aside... that still sucks shit, surely?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:00 / 12.01.02

"There are among these prisoners people who are perfectly willing to kill themselves and kill other people," he told reporters, adding that the soldiers guarding them on the trip had been told to use "appropriate restraint".

Oh, well, now we know it's all right then, don't we? So long as there are fanatics among the prisoners, we can do whatever we like to them. Burn them all; God will know his own.

12:29 / 13.01.02

You say POW, I say Criminal Fucks who deserve to have their balls chopped off and stuffed in their mouths.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:39 / 13.01.02

Thanks for that, Pimpbot.

The worst thing about all this is Donald Rumsfield calming stating on global television that since these people aren't recognised by the US as "legal combatants", they don't have any rights under the Geneva Convention... What's more, since the base they're being kept on isn't technically on American soil, they have no rights under American law either. So these "detainees" really can be treated in any the American military chooses, and already they're being kept in cages, in the open air...

quote:
"Housing detainees in Guantanamo in 6ft-by-8ft, chain-link 'cages' at least partially open to the elements would also fall below minimum standards for humane treatment," Amnesty said.

"Standards for the treatment of detainees require adequate shelter from the elements. The cage size would be less than that considered acceptable under US standards for ordinary prisoners confined to cells."

For fuck's sake, this isn't the Anti-American Anarchist Collective condemning the way these people are being treated, it's Amnesty fucking International... In fact I doubt that there's a single human rights organistation internationally that isn't deeply concerned by this behaviour.

Is it too much to hope that Castro busts these people out?

[ 13-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

15:33 / 13.01.02

Let's imagine the tables were turned. Actually, WE DONT HAVE TO!!! These fucks actually put people that were feeding the poor in JAIL. They charged them with "Converting others to an infadel religion" I think it was right after the law that made it illegal for women to read....

Including me, I never heard anyone crying or whining for them, besides their family and friends. My point is, why in the fuck is everybody being so fuking soft and sympathetic for terrorists. They joined a club, hate groupe, whatever you wanna call it, whose main goal was to kill civilians...not Marines, not Politicians, not Celebrities. These guys don't deserve to play by our rules...They had no respect for it before..If we were using their definition of justice, they would be dead a on Sept 12. Anyway Cuba is like a tropical paradise from where they are from.

All i'm sayin is give electric chairs a chance..j/k i didn't mean that

15:40 / 13.01.02

An eye for an eye and we all go blind.
- Mahatma Gandhi.

15:49 / 13.01.02

that's becoming cliche now

actually an eye for an eye means we all have one eye, that's not sooo bad.

[ 14-01-2002: Message edited by: Pimpbot 2000 ]

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

17:49 / 13.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:

Many Americans are indeed against Bush and his cronies, the attacks on Afghanistan, and the inhumane treatment of the POWs/suspects. It shouldn't suprise anyone that the American media makes little or no mention of any dissent from US citizens. The events of last year has made it painfully clear to many of us that our opinions and choices don't matter, which is humiliating and tends to sap ones' energy and drive. Many people don't know what to do. Some feel the old methods of protest don't work anymore, and are trying to think of new ways to get our point across. Many of us are scared shitless.

Some of us are doing shit, but you'll never hear or know about it. Which is good – some things are best kept secret.

I live in Minnesota, and the polls I see are that loess than 10% are even questioning what is going on.

Less.

Than.

10.

Percent.

I would refer you to the Howard Beale speech from Network about how people just want to sit in their homes and watch their TVs and not be bothered if it wasn't so cliche. What is selling now more than anything else? DVD players and movies...video rentals, things for the home. The US is looking inward, told to do so by commercials and following allong because Shopping fights terrorism after all.

Is it a vast generalization?

Yep.

But the polls show (and in talking to people and observing them) that Americans want to blow something up and then be left alone to go back to watching trials of Hockey Dads and reruns of 80's sitcoms.

I looked through the Minneapolis paper all week and didn't find a single story about Afghan casualties...did you know that there are no official numbers? I had to read a foreign website to find out that the POWs are being held in Open Cages with no shelter from the elements...not enough people in the US care.

The people who do are told to be quiet by those in power, and they are denied access to the media because It's Not Patriotically Correct.

So, yes, I will say the US is not giving a damn. Maybe a few people are...but lets also remember, only ONE person voted against the PATRIOT bill and said he did so because of the limits it placed on internet expression.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

17:57 / 13.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Pimpbot 2000:
that's becoming cliche now

actually an eye for an eye means we all have one eye, that's not sooo bad.

In the context of the Bible it is taken from, the phrase "An eye for an eye" meant that the punishment should never be MORE than what has been taken. It is also a first attempt at a kind of legal restraint, as at the time, there was no law, and family clans woudl take vengance.

That being said...if they are criminals, why aren't they given the rights of criminals or taken to the World Court like Milosevich? And if they are POWs, why are they accorded with the rights given under the Geneva conventions in regards to prisoners?

Because they pissed us off, and if you piss us off, you don't get rights anymore?

23:45 / 13.01.02

quote:That being said...if they are criminals, why aren't they given the rights of criminals or taken to the World Court like Milosevich?

Because the U.N. General Assembly adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948, the U.N. will give him justice, hopefully death.

Al-Queda committed a crime against the US only therefore we will give them justice. This is not a U.N. led operation. It's only the US and the volunteered help of other nations.

quote: I had to read a foreign website to find out that the POWs are being held in Open Cages with no shelter from the elements...not enough people in the US care.

hmmm...I found out in a story on excite.com.
And I honestly can't address this because i don't see the logic...OF COURSE WE DON'T CARE. That goes for all fucking criminals. I don't care if that that hockey guy is comfortable right now. Should I????? I will never care, Is that a problem???

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

00:10 / 14.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Pimpbot 2000:

hmmm...I found out in a story on excite.com.
And I honestly can't address this because i don't see the logic...OF COURSE WE DON'T CARE. That goes for all fucking criminals. I don't care if that that hockey guy is comfortable right now. Should I????? I will never care, Is that a problem???

Then you better hope you never get accused of a crime, my friend.

If you don't feel that people should be treated as human beings, then I guess it isn't a problem for you.

00:20 / 14.01.02

quote:If you don't feel that people should be treated as human beings, then I guess it isn't a problem for you.

treated as human beings?..I think you are being overly dramatic...They have it made compared to most people in Afghanistan, in fact they gots it better than alot of people in alot of places.

Open to the elements????....They are on a tropical island for god's sake.

06:01 / 14.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Pimpbot 2000:
[QB]

treated as human beings?..I think you are being overly dramatic...They have it made compared to most people in Afghanistan. [QB]

Mmmmm. Great choice: blown to fuck in your own country by the US, or put in a cage in fuck knows where by the US.

Then again, Rumsfield said they are so dangerous they would gnaw through the fuel cable of plane, so maybe its for the best that these animals are locked up. Now all they've got to chew on is each other. Right.

Face it, either the US are fighting an illegally unsanctioned war, or their prisoners are POWs.

06:11 / 14.01.02

Incidentally, it is also illegal to give free food to the poor in many US states, if you don't have the right license. Members of Food Not Bombs have been prosecuted and generally harrassed by the cops ever since they got started.

06:11 / 14.01.02

[ 14-01-2002: Message edited by: Laudanum ]

06:11 / 14.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Pimpbot 2000:
You say POW, I say Criminal Fucks who deserve to have their balls chopped off and stuffed in their mouths.

Fuckwit.

Well done America for now providing evidence to back up some of bin Laden's insane rhetoric. You have proved that you truly believe an American life is worth infinitely more than any other and that International Laws are for others to follow and America to enforce and flaunt.

[ 14-01-2002: Message edited by: Laudanum ]

06:11 / 14.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Pimpbot 2000:

treated as human beings?..I think you are being overly dramatic...They have it made compared to most people in Afghanistan, in fact they gots it better than alot of people in alot of places.

Open to the elements????....They are on a tropical island for god's sake.

Utter fuckwit. I hope for your general wellbeing that I have left my irony detector at home today.

Or that you are in the majority of Americans and don't own a passport.

14:55 / 14.01.02

quote: Incidentally, it is also illegal to give free food to the poor in many US states, if you don't have the right license

That's because we have safety laws here. Sometimes mistaken as red tape.

I don't know what's worse,
Not giving food to the hungry or
Giving spoiled food to the hungry.

15:36 / 14.01.02

Solitaire Rose: There's another thread in this forum that deals with polls and whether they reflect or distort how people feel about various subjects.

...not enough people in the US care. The people who do are told to be quiet by those in power, and they are denied access to the media because It's Not Patriotically Correct. So, yes, I will say the US is not giving a damn.

There is a difference between not being allowed to be heard and not doing anything. This country is too large and the population is too diverse to be generalized in such a manner.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:51 / 14.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
There is a difference between not being allowed to be heard and not doing anything.

Indeed. There is also a difference between not using your critical faculties and simply not being informed. In the long run, you only know what you're told.

Read the papers? But the paper you're reading may not be presenting all the facts; it may have its own agenda, either political or economical. Read a better paper? But all the people you know tell you that the "better" paper is full of middle-class bullshit.

Look on the net? But again, the website might not have all the facts. Also, since there's very little in the way of moderation or peer review, events tend to be misreported, distorted, blamed on the Chupacabra, etc.

This is a complex situation, and there's a problem with asking a generation raised on spin, soundbytes, and reflexive prejudice to analyze it: who's been teaching them how to make critical judgements?

20:00 / 14.01.02

quote:Including me, I never heard anyone crying or whining for them, besides their family and friends.

There was a link on this site earlier to stories about anti-Taliban protests in 1997. It was mainly NOW and a few other "radical lefty" organizations, so no-one in the mainstream really took much note at the time.

And, of course, quite a few Buddhists marched in the world's major cities protesting the destruction of the statues last year. But Buddhists overall tend to take this stuff easier than most folks do, so you might have missed that.

Of course, the real question is: what did these Afghans do against the US again? I missed something somewhere along the way - must be those darned Al-Quaida guys screwing with my sense of national boundaries.

06:11 / 15.01.02

pimbot - your 'crime committed against the US only' claim is making me rack my brains..... i seem to remember a few hundred british citizens being in the twin towers when they went down.

i understand your anger. i have been tempted to say 'fuck em, they deserve whatever they get'. but it is not the way forward - either as POWs or criminals they still have rights - the US *is* supposed to play by certain rules.

06:37 / 15.01.02

Why were these particular people chosen to be deported? What have they done exactly? Are they going to link them with terrorist attacks...cos if they are just going to accuse them of defending themselves in Afghanistan the that doesn't make any sense.
I would consider the current treatment of these people to be as horrific as the terrorist attack on 9/11.

08:17 / 15.01.02

Pimpin ain't easy is it Pimpbot 3000?

Personally I think its ok for the US authorities to torture, maim and kill anyone they damn well please.

Except for us white folks.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:42 / 15.01.02

Byline from the BBC today:

quote:The UK pledges to protect the rights of three Britons held as suspected al-Qaeda prisoners in Cuba, but refuses to criticise the US's approach.

...

Well, that's a lot of use, isn't it?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:42 / 15.01.02

I know this is a complex situation... but surely the human/moral/ethical argument here can be boiled down to an either/or proposition.
Namely...
Either A) We (by which I don't actually mean any collective group of people of which I am a part, but the US government and obviously by extension the UK government) were fighting a legal war. In which case, these people are prisoners of war.
or B) We weren't. We were just doing stuff we thought was right, whether or not it contravened anyone else's definition of the term, and knew that was OK cos We were OBVIOUSLY RIGHT. In which case we're "rogue states". And terrorists. In which case, we should declare war on ourselves.
I know it's kind of reductio ad absurdum logic, but, as the man (nearly) said, insane times call for insane analysis.

So. The way I see it is- do we accord them their rights as human beings, or are we evil fucks?

Hang on... wasn't the West supposed to be fighting FOR civilisation and humane treatment? No? Oh well.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:47 / 15.01.02

quote:“The Secretary seems unaware of the requirements of international humanitarian law,” said Jamie Fellner, director of Human Rights Watch´s U.S. Program. “As a party to the Geneva Conventions, the United States is required to treat every detained combatant humanely, including unlawful combatants. The United States may not pick and choose among them to decide who is entitled to decent treatment.”

From Human Rights Watch.

08:39 / 16.01.02

I caught a minute of channel 4 news last night where some bloke was arguing that the Geneva Convention was out of date and thus shouldn't apply. Speechless.

10:36 / 16.01.02

You say 'illegal combatant' unless he's fucking American ... so John Lindt, a traitor, is getting tried in Washington and the stiffest penalty he can receive is life imprisonment, whereas members of the Taliban, fighting, rightly or wrongly, for their country, in their country, face the death penalty.

Can this get worse?

11:07 / 16.01.02

This is what happens when Lawyers and MBAs collude to run a war instead of them honorable fightin' men...

er...I don't have much intelligent or enlightening to say about this despicable situation...On the one had, I can't get too personally exercised on behalf of 3 dozen Al qaeda members rights...on the other hand, this treatment sets a truly abominable precedent.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:19 / 16.01.02

quote:Originally posted by EvilFakeTodd:
On the one had, I can't get too personally exercised on behalf of 3 dozen Al qaeda members rights...on the other hand, this treatment sets a truly abominable precedent.

But that's how precedents get set, Todd. Bad things are done to people you "can't get too personally exercised on behalf of", and you don't get too worked up about it, because it's only happening to those people who aren't at all like you and probably had it coming, and so it could never happen to you, etc etc...

"First they came for the Communists, and I said nothing, because I was not a Communist", and so on.

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