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Meditation: Ticket to Hell

 
 
grant
14:31 / 06.09.02
Here's something that should stir some debate...
San Francisco's SFWeekly just ran a piece on the dangers of meditation.

Here's how it starts:
Karen Long (a pseudonym), in her mid-20s, turned to meditation as a way to feel connected. "I wanted to experience that 'oneness with the universe,'" she says. At a nondenominational San Francisco temple, she hooked up with a group of women practicing a hodgepodge of relaxation techniques, drawn from books and discussions. Long spent one to two hours a day meditating over the next three years.

"Then I began hearing voices," she says. "I heard profound messages. The other people thought it was a sign of enlightenment. Some people at the temple told me that I had 'contacted a spiritual guide.' During my normal awake hours, I found myself feeling spacey sometimes."

Unconvinced that aural hallucinations were a sign from God, Long quit meditating. The voices stopped.

Long's experience isn't unique. Researchers have known for 30 years that meditating can have adverse health effects on some people, inducing psychological and physical problems ranging from muscle spasms to hallucinations. But around the Bay Area, eyes seem closed to the data.



They also say...


Those effects can include facial tics, insomnia, spacing out, and even psychotic breakdowns. Dr. Margaret Singer, clinical psychologist emeritus at Berkeley, with research partner Dr. Janja Lalich, collected case histories from 70 clients seeking treatment for problems that began during meditation practice. Their research presents several examples of these symptoms and notes that prior to meditating, none of the patients had individual or family histories of mental disorders:

- A 36-year-old business executive now lives off welfare as a result of the relentless anxiety attacks and blackouts he suffered after taking up meditation. "Everything gets in through my senses," he told Singer.

- A young woman watched rooms fill with orange fog when she "spaced out" at random moments.

- A 26-year-old man was overwhelmed by rage and sexual urges whenever he went out in public, driving him to stay home to avoid these episodes.

Singer and Lalich point out that most people never have problems with meditation. The danger for those who do is that many instructors call the problems a welcome sign of enlightenment, as in Long's case, or proof of the student's insincere effort. In either situation, teachers encourage the student to meditate longer.


So - just how dangerous IS something as innocuous as sitting quietly?
What are these people doing to themselves?
What do YOU think is REALLY going on?
 
 
Papess
14:44 / 06.09.02
Some people have more obstacles to discovering the nature of their own mind than others do.


Shame, the ego's tricks know no bounds.


~MT
 
 
Jack Fear
14:51 / 06.09.02
Who writes this shit?

Jack Chick?
 
 
gravitybitch
14:52 / 06.09.02
What do I think is going on? In the larger sense, business as usual - about once a month, the Weekly runs an inflammatory main piece that does a marvelous job of bashing the subject, whatever it is. Environmentalists, some local social programs, municipal power co-ops, all have been the subjects of hit pieces that don't really offer any solutions or balance, just dirt...

On the subject of meditation - most of the problems seem to come from really intensive programs of meditation. (A couple hours a day or more is intense for folks raised in Western culture.) And there is, of course, the question of the quality of instructors - does the article address this at all?

Deep meditation won't be good for everybody, but I don't think that 20 minutes twice a day of sitting quietly and paying attention to the breath would be harmful for any but a very small percentage of the population.
 
 
Sebastian
15:01 / 06.09.02
I read this with much curiosity linked from Forteantimes few days ago. Borrowing from RAW, I do think the notions of "neurological and cultural relativity" are very underdeveloped in the "regular-common-easy-to-find" human being. As this is something cultural and collective, there isn't much too be done directly about it. Just keep on with the excitment of consciously digging your own multi-faceted reality tunnel, and see how those chaps from the article are being brought back to "normalcy".

There was another article I read this week about the NDE in clinically dead people that then comes back to consciousness. They mostly go through the famous tunnel and the light-beings greeting thing. Then they come back and report it, to get the "science" guys concerned because:

"The problem [...] is how to prove whether these experiences really occur (my emphasis). Three main theories exist: that the visions are [really] a chemical by-product due to lack of oxygen; that they are [really] a psychological response to the perceived threat of death; or that they [really] are a spiritual event indicating that there really is an afterlife." [brackets added by myself also]

C'mon..., what's the problem with these guys? Oh, I know which is: whichever of the above proves to be more "real" will then prove to be more lucrative.
 
 
illmatic
15:09 / 06.09.02
Strange - is SFWeekley Christian run? Seem like the sort of attack Christian would run. Been a story in the press in the UK lately about a vicar banning Yoga classes in his local village hall, seen several Yoga is the path to Satan" stories over the years.
If not, I dont know. Hmmm. don't know if you've come across any accounts of people talking about experience of Kundalini? Gopi Krishna springs to mind as someone who flipped out psychotically after going hammer and tongs at his meditation practice(but calmed down eventually and wrote books about it ). Kundalini litreature is rife with accounts of people who've gone a bit mad as a result of excessive or ungrounded practice. Or even without the excess - I can see how if you've been habitully tense and you relax, it might let loose something that'd scare the shit out of you. I suppose any process of self-examination carries that risk, especially if you really devote yourself to it- note that this Karen Long's practice was in excess of an hour per day for 3 years - quite a lot in anyone's book esp. if it's not been balanced out by work, using your body, social interaction. You can get obsessive about anything. Perhaps meditation itself is not the danger but all the beliefs around sprituality that surround it? The memes of enlightenment and omnipotence ?
I've never had any problems myself, but if I did experience anything untoward that I didn't want to explore, I'd have a good meal, do some exercise and see some friends.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:19 / 06.09.02
I've had scary things happen to me during meditation, and I don't even do it that intensely. I've taken it as an opportunity to find out things that scare me that I may not have ackowledged consiously. I get a lot of cancer imagery during these phases.

Personally, I found the JackChickishness fun and also entertaining -- even moreso that Jack Fear said it.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:29 / 06.09.02
Um, but doesn't meditation attract people who are unstable in the first place? (By which I don't mean that anyone who is into magick or spirituality is unstable, obviously, just that, well, it's the sort of place people on the verge of serious mental illness might end up. I just think there's a couple of little things called 'cause' and 'effect' which the author of that pap might want to think about in more depth.
 
 
grant
15:47 / 06.09.02
Bear in mind, this isn't a fundie publication by a longshot - it's a San Francisco online news source. One of their other top stories in this issue was on media rules at Burning Man. Another was on the tragedy facing an Indian tribe whose sacred dance relics were preserved with DDT, making worship a bit of a problem.
(I guess they're a *problem* paper, which might be indicative of SF culture in general - the people who hiss when you don't separate green glass from clear glass in your recycling bin.)

You also can't discount the fact that one of the doctors involved in the study is a top psychologist from Berkeley - one of the wackiest, most hippified schools in America. (It's where Alexander Shulgin synthesized MDMA and 2CB and all those other fun drugs.) Not necessarily an unsympathetic scientist.
 
 
Hieronymus
16:55 / 06.09.02
I can't decide what it is about the article that bugs me. I have to agree with zilla that it has a lot to do with intensity/duration (I've been in sessions when fellow students just simply broke into long sobs. It can be emotionally taxing depending upon the length at which you do it) as well as the callous instructor who just dismisses a student's panic or anxiety as 'good old healthy enlightenment' or worse, a symptom that 'you're just not trying hard enough'. Your student's fears, your student's path, should take precedent and should be nurtured, not met with indignance. It makes me wonder who their respective instructors are.

Unfortunately there's not much of an accreditation process to be a meditation instructor so it's no different than any other teaching; if you're under the wrong guidance, you need to get away from it. Having said that, meditation is a practice of stilling the ego, of embracing it. Not an easy thing at all and certainly not without fearful trials. Daydreaming occurs, the subconscious gets peeled away and many times, depending upon the person, some nasty stuff sneaks in. But anyone whose instructor seems immune to his student's fears need to be avoided at all costs. That kind of bootcamp behavior is utter bullshit. And honestly can screw people up more than they already are.
 
 
Warewullf
17:22 / 06.09.02

Unconvinced that aural hallucinations were a sign from God, Long quit meditating. The voices stopped.


Well, then, what's her fucking problem? She heard voices, didn't like 'em, stopped mediatating, problem solved. Silly cow. What a wasted oppurtunity.


Long's experience isn't unique. Researchers have known for 30 years that meditating can have adverse health effects on some people,


Ah, so does jogging, going to church and eating sugar. In every area of life, someone is going to get hurt.
 
 
Papess
17:34 / 06.09.02
hahahehehehohohohohoh

*howling at Warewullf's response.


~MT
 
 
cusm
17:39 / 06.09.02
I know I've hear many times before that accessing internal energies in ways you are not prepared for can cause major problems. Its not how long you meditate, its how well as well. From a Taoist/Yogi perapective, psychosis means you are not circulating your energies properly. Too much goes to the head, not enough leaves it. Stop playing with your singing bowl and learn the macrocosmic orbit before you mess with this stuff any more. Meditation is a wee more than sitting quietly. The results are an increased ability to access your bodies automatic functions, like circulation, hormone release, and stuff on the "energetic" level, which is a handy way to describe more than we can easily pin down otherwise. If you don't know what you are doing, you can screw them up pretty good.

I say dump the new age hippy that's running the class, and go talk to someone who knows what they hell this is actually about, like a doctor of Chinese medicine.
 
 
cusm
17:42 / 06.09.02
Oh, and incidently, its long been the fundie christian's party line that meditation opens one up to demonic influence, and that all "psychic phenomenom" can be explained by demons sitting on your head whispering things into your ears. Really. I wish I was making this shit up. There are some truely willfully ignorant people out there. That's some skillful justification, I'll have to say.
 
 
Papess
17:58 / 06.09.02
"There are some truely willfully ignorant people out there. That's some skillful justification, I'll have to say.~cusm

Anything to get outta sitting still.

"No beer and no TV makes Homer go crazy!"
 
 
Seth
21:25 / 06.09.02
And it's also been the mystic Christian's party line to be a strong advocate for meditation. It's also being positively presented by many Charismatic churches. My Dad, in particular, teaches of its essential importance in practising the spiritual gifts.

Sorry if I'm being over-defensive right now. Maybe I should change my fictionsuit to "The Church Is More Varied Than You Think It Is."
 
 
Papess
00:40 / 07.09.02
Exp, this is not about christains. I do not think so, anyway. I think this as about ignorance. Well, as they say, Ignorance is bliss!

Bliss is a comforting state of being. Distracted by the various methods of intoxication, (that would be tv, internet, shopping, heroin,...etc.) to buffer ourselves from the onslaught of the unknown. By giving in to these phenomenon, these people are are missing the point of meditation.

Isn't the "idea" to recognize all phenomenon as illusion, let it pass and then arrive at a state of no-mind or gnosis? To even recognize the illusory nature of that...

Haven't these people heard of the Herring's Law of Cure?

It is going to get worse before it gets better. The "dis-ease", once it begins to heal, will go through the various symptomatic stages, almost in reverse. It may seem like you are not getting any better, but you are. Just like when you quit smoking, and you hack your ass off for a week or two, this is the same thing. Except here, we are talking about clearing a lifetime's worth of infection and the healing process may be alot longer.

I think these people may have had the misconception that meditation is easy. After all, it is just sitting and being. What could be so hard about that? I guess they were shocked at the all the stuff they had stored away in their mind and ran, and to even go so far as to say it is "unhealthy"!! That is nuts! (Err, IMHO) Isn't a dis-eased mind unhealthier?

~MT
 
 
Seth
05:26 / 07.09.02
I know, May. I was just knee-jerking at cusm's comment (sorry cusm) due to my current over-sensetivity. Which is good - it's nice to feel over-sensetive and prickly for a change (been a long time).
 
 
Bill Posters
15:07 / 07.09.02
Sheesh, exp, I had no idea about that, and I for one am grateful you pointed it out. But then, the western esotericism from which we get a lot of magickal ideas was originally a perfectly Christian business...
 
 
cusm
14:50 / 09.09.02
No harm, exp. I should clairify that the derangement I was referring to comes from a minority of hardline baptist and fundie Christians, the same sort who advocate the burning of any materials that might give them rise to impure thoughts, and certainly not Christians in general. I first came across this reading Frank E. Peretti's This Present Darkness and following books in the series. I thought it was a neat sort of fantasy story about angels and demons fighting shadow wars over the souls of men. Cool stuff. I was later horrified to discover that people actually believe this sort of thing and that Peretti was writing it as a form of ministrey. Having also attended a number of their brainwashing sessions courtesy of my father trying to be helpful in my spiritual development, I'll have to say they're a scary lot.

Amusingly, I got a lot out of those, though it wasn't giving all my decision making abilities over to Jesus and burning all my records like they wanted. I learned a lot about resisting the lures of cults and charasmatic leaders, something that has benefeted me greately in my adult life, even more so in the magickal circles I deal with. I'm certainly stronger for it, so I can only complain but so much about the experience.
 
 
Kobol Strom
16:56 / 09.09.02
This is an interesting case,but she'll be glad to know she isn't crazy,far from it.What she is experiencing is auditory hallucinations that have not been processed properly because the part of her brain that normally functions to make sense of sensory data has gone to sleep.
Instead,all signals recieved get mixed up and meanings get swapped and what was just the sound of a bird singing can be percieved as Stevie Wonder.I'm not surprised she heard 'profound' voices either ,that seems clearly to be her expectations at work.Sometimes these hallucinations ,since thay are based on confused signals,can have revelatory meaning because thay reveal other organisations which are normally hidden,namely,unconscious,perhaps unresolved psychological issues.
Of course,this lady will never know.

It is possible,as stated before in this thread,to use this state of perception for all kinds of things to do with externalising internal processes.But I think this is just opening a door,and I also believe this is related to the experience that is referred to as 'kundalini'.

The only thing you have to fear when you meditate is yourself.
 
 
Lionheart
17:56 / 09.09.02
The topic abstract is a bit wrong.

"Sometimes, meditation makes people go, well, crazy. "

Not true.

It's just like people who have an underlying psychosis shouldn't take LSD. The same people shouldn't meditate without consulting a psychiatrist.

And this would all be common knowledge except for one simple little tiny problem in our Western culture..

Evrything is treated as therapy!!!

I was in Barnes and Noble, reading all the books there for free, taking notes, in the New Age section (which is by the psychology section and by the history section. So I'm close to a lot of good books.) when I hear these two women, both in their 30s, walk by me. And this is the conversation...

Woman1: Well, yoga is good therapy for some but meditation's better.

Woman2: Why?

Woman 1: Well, yoga is more exercise than therapy. Meditation is pure therapy. You just sit there and it's better than any psychologist.


I'm paraphrasing but that was basically the conversation. In our Western culture magickal techniquews are marketed as therapy! And because of that people use meditation and yoga for therapy because they have absolutly no clue about what yoga and meditation is really for. See, a lot of these New Age authors don't believe that meditation can actually cause anything strange or weird and they don't understand that yoga is meditation. And so a small percentage of people who need to resolve some psychological issues go out and start meditating and freak out when things start happening. And their mind, which isn't in its best working condition makes the whole experience like a bad trip.

You should read some Jack Shwartz. He addresses these problems.
 
 
cheshire
20:58 / 11.09.02
when individuals who have been closed to the world around them are exposed to an eye/door-opening experience on an intense proportion, sometimes the trauma of realizing what has been/is within them is more damaging than the exercise that opened the door to let it out.
 
  
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