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Our New War: Fun Facts You Should Know

 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:45 / 27.12.01
According to a U.S. department of Energy September 2001 report, Afghanistan has natural oil reserves of about 95 million barrels. Oh, and it’s in an ideal place for the building of an oil pipeline to transport oil from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea. But I’m sure, what with Dick Cheney (formerly of Halliburton Energy) Condoleeza Rice (formerly of Chevron) W (from a family with serious ties to the oil industry), I’m sure there’s no connection to this war. (*And I’d be a fool and a communist to make one.) http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/afghan.html


That Bin Laden’s family (presumably the ‘good branch’ , former UK prime minister John Major and oh! This is interesting! W’s father, George H.W. Bush, stand to make a significant profit through this war Oh, and also interesting but I’m sure no connection to this war, W himself was on their board in 1990, later appointed several Carlyle members to a Texas board that controls state teacher’s pensions. Coincidentally that teachers’ pension fund later gave $100 million in public money to the Carlyle Group. Also coincidence is Carlyle’s position as the 11th largest military contractor. http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,583869,00.html

According to an article in Lumpen magazine, a new book by two French journalists claims that prior to 9.11 the U.S. was all ready threatening military action in Afghanistan due to the refusal of the Taliban to allow an oil pipeline to be built across the country. I also read this in the latest issue of the International Socialist Review. No connection I’m sure. Unfortunately both of these are included only in the text version, and I can’t find any other info online.


What has been so nice about this war is the distraction it’s created, and the wonderful boon it’s created for gargantuan corporations. Big businesses have been able to line their pockets just the way they wanted to, but it’s the name of “economic stimulus,” you understand. I wish I could get a refund on all taxes I’ve paid since 1986, but hey, at least I got $300 right? http://www.howdarethey.org/news/economic/krugman12-21-01.htm http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1215-07.htm


The CIA, FBI, and other security powers-that-be can have all the powers they lost (after shocking abuses in the 60s and 70s, including the assassination of a Black Panther leader and possibly Martin Luther King), returned to them. I’m so pleased to be free from the burden of free expression! http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12084 http://www.counterpunch.org/homeland1.html http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/usapatriotsecbysec102301.pdf http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/n121401b.html http://www.progressive.org/0901/roth0102.html


In addition to ramming executive orders through in order to consolidate executive authority , Bush is also making sure his pals get appointed as fast as possible, and is currently considering "recess" appointments in order to bypass that tedious legislative approval process. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bush-Nominations.html


This is slightly an exhaustive list, but I suggest you check out some of this shit. I’ve had a lot of free time over the past few days and I’ve been doing a lot of reading. This war is No. Good. At. All. And it certainly won’t do you any good.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:56 / 27.12.01
One I found out today:

The number of dead in Afghanistan has already gone past the number of people who died in the Twin Towers

Put Marc Herold into Google, see what happens...

Kudos to Mark Steel for the original pointer to Herold
 
 
gentleman loser
22:22 / 27.12.01
Nicely done, Cherry Bomb and Not Me Again.

The only thing you left out is that this war is a defense contractor's wet dream. Lots more arms for everyone! Bush's carefully timed pullout of the ABM treaty (conveniently timed with the release of the Bin Laden video) is nothing but corporate welfare for the aerospace industry.
 
 
lentil
22:22 / 27.12.01
jesus, i've obviously been looking at this situation in completely the wrong way. Instead of going on peace demonstrations and fulminating about the horrendous injustice and doublethink perpetrated by all participants, I should have been figuring the angles for profit opportunities! I haven't been selling many paintings recently, could anyone suggest a way I could manipulate a war interest to improve business? perhaps a series of artworks explaining why the american lives lost on 9/11 are worth so much more than the afghan lives lost in the "humanitarian war" would capture the public mood.
 
 
Naked Flame
13:07 / 28.12.01
McLentil- when I popped over to NYC in late Sept I passed up the opportunity to own one of many pieces of fine art depicting the skyline 'before' and 'after'. They're way ahead of you...

edit- Cherry, I was under the impression that the US had been funding the Taleban so as to get at the oil... knew the Taleban pulled out of that one sometime around 99-00, but didn't know about any military intentions pre-9/11. Hmmm.

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:41 / 28.12.01
The military plans were mentioned in an article in Lumpen magazine, reviewing a book recently published by two French journalists in but (and I realize how shoddy this sounds but it's true) but I'm blanking on the name of the book and the article is only available in the print version. It was also mentioned in the International Socialist Review, but again in an article available only in the print version.

So take that as you will.
 
 
Naked Flame
16:13 / 28.12.01
I think I've put it together a little. The US set up anti-Taliban sanctions directly following the Al'Qaeda embassy bombings- 1998. I do remember reading that the USA were still funding the Taleban's governmental infrastructure as late as '99, though... either a dodgy source or it took time for the USA's dinosaur-brain impulses to filter through to the body politic.

The original Unocal pipeline plan was pulled 3 months after the attacks, reason given was the US airstrikes in late '98. So, the Taleban started seeing other oil companies, and went into negotiations with a Greek company. But this didn't lead anywhere- as far as I can tell because the Greek govt. didn't recognise the Taleban. Meanwhile, other parties interested in the oil started trying to cut deals with Rabbani, the then president-in-exile. So, there's some more to chew on, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

Article here looking at the 'it's all about oil' argument... bit more food for thought.

Edit- that article is certainly very well informed about governmental interests. It doesn't take into account claims of war profiteering, though. The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to call it a conspiracy. I think it's simply that oil has become such a universally desired resource, pegged into so many economies, and involving planet-sized chunks of money, that it's become a central symptom of all our global sicknesses.

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:31 / 28.12.01
Oh, finally did find some online links suggesting that attack on Afghanistan has been planned for some time: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm
http://www.indiareacts.com/archivefeatures/nat2.asp?recno=10∓ctg=policy
[URL=http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2001/010420_nuclear_war_now.html]

Particularly take note of the dates on the India sources.

I don't know. I hear you, Flamester - but the fact the Bush administration has SO MUCH to gain financially from this war it must be taken into consideration as a motivation. Whoever manages to control that area will effectively have a major, major piece of power for quite possible centuries to come.

A lot of that area has come under notice now due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I'm getting the feeling that the Russians, the British and the AMericans want to be the main players in this deal.

[ 29-12-2001: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]
 
 
rizla mission
10:47 / 29.12.01
Thanks for all this info., Cherry Bomb. I was vaguely aware of most of it before, but it's great to have it all in writing for the purposes of berrating fools.

Wars n' violence always seems to come down to fucking oil these days..

..Oil is the new Communism?
 
 
Naked Flame
22:22 / 29.12.01
thanks for the links, cherry, looks like they did indeed have the plan all ready to roll.

playing devils advocate for a mo, could this just be a simple contingency?

and does anyone remember the link to the intelligence map someone linked to on here a while back, showing you exactly how the six-degrees-of-separation thing went with W, UBL and the oil boys?
 
 
Orange Julius is New
15:49 / 03.01.02
A friend sent me a link to this discussion, so I thought I would share some of the info I had put together in case anyone wants to add it to their list of must-reads for the new year

Oh, and this might get kind of long...

First of all, let's consider that the US Government was planning to take military action against the Taliban for over a year now. They had begun securing promises of support from other countries before the Sept. 11th attacks occurred. On June 26th of this year, an Indian newspaper reported:

quote:
Indian officials say that India and Iran will only play the role of "facilitator" while the US and Russia will combat the Taliban from the front with the help of two Central Asian countries, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, to push Taliban lines back to the 1998 position 50 km away from Mazar-e-Sharief city in northern Afghanistan.


Why was the government planning these military strikes? Well, let's take a wild guess... could it be oil? The same article states:

quote:
Iran is also worried over the unending war effort of the Taliban to get supremacy in Afghanistan that is harming Iran's economic interests. India, Iran and Russia, for example, are working on a broad plan to supply oil and gas to south Asia and southeast Asian nations through India but instability in Afghanistan is posing a great threat to this effort.


You can view this article here: http://www.indiareacts.com/archivefeatures/nat2.asp?recno=10&ctg=%20

In July 1997, officials from Turkmenistan and Pakistan and representatives from Unocal and Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil signed an agreement to build the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan line. The 900+mile pipeline would have cost between $2 billion and $2.7 billion, and would have carried approximately 700 Bcf of gas from Turkmenistan's Daulatabad gas field to the central Pakistani city of Multan.

In October 1997, Unocal set up the Central Asian Gas Pipeline (CentGas) consortium to build the pipeline. Construction was scheduled to begin in 1998. However, in early August 1998, Unocal announced that CentGas had not secured the financing necessary to begin the work, and on August 22, 1998, Unocal suspended construction plans due to the continuing civil war in Afghanistan.

The governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan have continued to discuss the possibility of a pipeline through Afghanistan, including the possibility of exporting gas across Pakistan to India, but it seems unlikely that such a scheme could secure financing in the near future given the risks involved. We now face a possibility of nuclear struggle between Pakistan and India... anyone wanna take a guess what underlies part of this strife?

Unocal and Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil held a combined 85 percent stake in the consortium, while Turkmenrusgas owned 5 percent. Other participants in the project included Hyundai Engineering & Construction Company of South Korea, Itochu Corporation of Japan, and Indonesia Petroleum Ltd. Unocal stressed that the pipeline project would not proceed until an internationally recognized government was in place in Afghanistan.

You can read more about this here: http://biz.yahoo.com/ifc/tm/

and here: http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/98news/centgas.htm

In the 1980's, CIA-supported Mujahedeen rebels engaged heavily in drug trafficking while fighting against the Soviet insurgency. The Agency's principal client was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, one of the leading druglords and a leading heroin refiner. CIA-supplied trucks and mules, which had carried arms into Afghanistan, were used to transport opium to laboratories along the Afghan/Pakistan border. The output provided up to one half of the heroin used annually in the United States and three-quarters of that used in Western Europe.

U.S. officials admitted in 1990 that they had failed to investigate or take action against the drug operation because of a desire not to offend their Pakistani and Afghan allies. In 1993, an official of the DEA called Afghanistan the new Colombia of the drug world.

The Taliban's mid-2000 ban on opium poppy production, widely discounted externally, has apparently been adhered to as wheat has almost entirely displaced poppy cultivation in 2001. Large stockpiles of opium are suspected to exist, but should the mandate stand, the near elimination of Afghanistan as an opium producing country would reduce global production by as much as 75 percent.

The Taliban represents a direct threat to the opium trade that has funded the CIA's covert operations since the early 1950's.

PBS did a great background on the history of the heroin trade and the CIA's role in it, and the timeline is located on the Frontline website.

The history of the CIA is shady to say the least. President Truman signed the National Security Act of 1947, creating the Central Intelligence Agency and National Security Council. The CIA is accountable to the president through the NSC — there is no democratic or congressional oversight. Its charter allows the CIA to "perform such other functions and duties… as the National Security Council may from time to time direct." This loophole opens the door to covert action and dirty tricks. William Blum has written a truly comprehensive book on this subject called "Killing Hope" and you can order it through Amazon.com.

James Hatfield, who met his unfortunate death a few weeks after writing this article, reported that Bush's oil company Arbusto founded his company in part through the financial backing of James R. Bath, a Houston business man who was partners with a number of Saudi Arabians:

quote:
According to court documents, Bath swore that in 1977 he represented four prominent and wealthy Saudi Arabians as a trustee and used his name on their investments in the United States. In return, he received a 5 percent interest in their deals. Time reporters Beaty and Gwynne suggest in their book that the $50,000 Bath invested in Dubya's Arbusto Energy drilling company may have belonged to Bath's Saudi clients since the Houston businessman "had no substantial money of his own at the time."


The FBI and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network later investigated Bath after allegations were made by one of his American business partners that the Saudis were using Bath and their giant piggy bank to influence U.S. policy. (Dubya's father had been appointed by President Ford to head the CIA from 1976–77.)

Hatfield is the author of the biography of George W. Bush, "Fortunate Son".

You can also read a terrific interview with renegade journalist Greg Palast here: http://www.guerrillanews.com/counter_intelligence/233.html
about the Bush family (regime) and its involvement with oil, gold, and ballot shuffling, and the future of truth in journalism (or lack thereof).

Cheney, on the other hand, well... that man is just plan evil.

Cheney alone, during his 5-year tenure as CEO of Halliburton, Inc, oversaw more human rights abuses than the Taliban could dream of committing in the same time period. Martin Lee reported for the San Francisco Bay Guardian in November of 2000 that

quote:
In addition to Iraq, Halliburton counts among its business partners several brutal dictatorships that have committed egregious human rights abuses, including the hated military regime in Burma (Myanmar). EarthRights, a Washington, D.C.-based human rights watchdog, condemned Halliburton for two energy-pipeline projects in Burma that led to the forced relocation of villages, rape, murder, indentured labor, and other crimes against humanity." A full report on the Burma connection, "Halliburton's Destructive Engagement," can be accessed on EarthRights' Web site, www.earthrights.org .


Halliburton and Cheney have come under attack for their role in Algeria, Angola, Bosnia, Croatia, Haiti, Rwanda, Somalia, Indonesia, and other volatile trouble spots. As Lee notes,

Indeed, Cheney's firm increased its involvement in the Niger Delta after the military government executed several ecology activists and crushed popular protests against the oil industry.

Oh, and by the way, Halliburton and Unocal are business partners.

In August of this year, Wayne Madsen wrote an article on the private interests behind Bush and Cheney's energy policy. Not only did he find that Bush had India's foreign minister in his pocket (one of Bush's main political backers, Enron, is expanding its operations to India and is already running a privatized electrical distribution system in Bombay), but he also did exhaustive research on the US' extensive international oil trade. Prophetically, he concluded:

quote:
Much has been written and said about the influence of Big Oil over the policies of Bush and Cheney on global warming, drilling in the Alaskan wilderness, and their opposition to capping energy prices in California. Yet such is the power of the industry over the Bush administration, that Big Oil may influence, if not actually determine, how international borders are drawn, which leaders remain as heads of state and government, and what countries sit as members of the United Nations. Apparently, that's what $26 million in political contributions (the amount Big Oil gave to Republicans during the last election) can buy.


Edward B. Winslow reported for Alternet on January 2 the mysterious and highly suspect relationship between the White House and Enron Corp. He found that while the top 500 executives walked away with a combined $55 million in bonuses after selling their stock at its peak, the remaining 20,000 employees were given severance packages of no more than $4,500 a piece. This after Enron gave millions of dollars in campaign contributions to Bush, U.S. Sen. Phil Gramm and other members of Congress and utilized 2,830 offshore subsidiaries in countries with lax banking-regulation laws most likely in order to defraud stockholders. It may be 30 or more years before we know what really went on in Cheney's secret energy meeting with Enron execs.

You know, this is all very well and good, I mean, for us to shoot the shit on what's really happening behind the media curtain. I live in the United States, and if you want to really know what's going on here, you have to dig. You have to dig deep. And that means you have to have the time and the resources and the money to dig deep, and most people don't because, one more thing our media doesn't report is that, most of our population lives in poverty.

But one can dig, and one can find out that our President stole the election, and the war in Afghanistan was one that had been planned by many organizations for quite some time, and chances are good that the world is going to go to hell in a handbasket without most of the general population even knowing why or how. And we can chat conspiracy theories all day, but the truth is: this is commerce. What this ALL comes down to is money. Who profits? Who wants more money and how far are they willing to go to get it?

Its sick, really, to think about how far some of these people are willing to go, but they have a very simple point of view: its a dog eat dog world, and its all survival of the fittest. So hone your skills and screw the little guy because he's on his own. Its just the same scenario being repeated over and over, small corporation eaten by big corporation which gets bigger and eats more small corporations until there aren't any small corporations left... and so on. And the US government, hell most governments, are just that--mighty big corporations trying to turn a profit. Once you have that figured out, it doesn't shock you when you find out that presidents buy their votes, and businesses buy the presidency, and consumers... well, we're at the bottom of the totem pole. We're the foundation for this system. As long as we keep pouring our own time and money and resources into it, it will keep on keeping on in this direction. Think about it.

quote:
If we hope to understand anything about the foreign policy of any state, it is a good idea to begin by investigating the domestic social structure: Who sets foreign policy? What interests do these people represent? What is the domestic source of their power? It is a reasonable surmise that the policy that evolves will reflect the special interests of those who design it. An honest study of history will reveal that this natural expectation is quite generally fulfilled. The evidence is overwhelming, in my opinion, that the United States is no exception to the general rule—a thesis which is often characterized as a ‘radical critique,’ in a curious intellectual move… Some attention to the historical record, as well as common sense, leads to a second reasonable expectation: In every society, there will emerge a caste of propagandists who labour to disguise the obvious, to conceal the actual workings of power, and to spin a web of mythical goals and purposes, utterly benign, that allegedly guide national policy. A typical thesis of the propaganda system is that ‘the nation’ is an agent in international affairs, not special groups within it, and that ‘the nation’ is guided by certain ideals and principles, all of them noble… A subsidiary thesis is that the nation is not an active agent, but rather responds to threats posed to its security, or to order and stability, by awesome evil forces."
--Noam Chomsky


If we want to blame this all on oil, then why aren't we all riding our bikes instead of driving our SUV's? Bush wouldn't be playing the game without the Monopoly money we all give every day at the gas station.

Thanks for letting me rant
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:05 / 03.01.02
That was fucking gorgeous.
 
 
alas
23:14 / 07.01.02
First, I agree that that was gorgeous. But we partly leave our bikes in the garages and give them all that monopoly money to play with because corporations like GM bought out and destroyed the public transportation systems in various cities, in order, voila, to sell more cars.

Second, I hope this isn't too tangential or "no duh"-ish, but reading all this, I'm struck by the parallels in the ways that fundamentalisms of all sorts--Islamic in the Middle East (and Jewish, for that matter), and Christian in the US--are being manipulated to help forward these obscene, crude power plays. So, the real powers in the US are not really interested in ending abortion, they just want to keep the fundies as a psuedopopulist base as they rape and pillage the world's resources.

And that's clearly what's happening on a cruder, more drastic level in Saudi Arabia, with the royal family fueling fundamentalist groups and activities in order to keep their attention away from the money coming in to the royal pockets. Somewhere I read that for every $1.00 you spend on gasoline in the US, $.10 goes to the Saudi Royal Family . . .

And we on the left just get fractured trying to deal with both assaults--the attack on civil liberties led by this kind of fundie-pandering and the simultaneous, larger global assault on economic democracy led by the corporate-military complex . . .
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:38 / 08.01.02
Ok, everyone is saying it in Conversation, but I'll say it here.

I love you guys. I wish I had time to dig this sort of stuff up, since our so called journalists are ignoring it.
 
 
Slim
18:25 / 08.01.02
Silly me. I thought this war was about capturing a known terrorist.
 
 
GreatForm
01:54 / 09.01.02
I'm a bit confused...I thought the terrorists(Al-Queda) and the gov't that supported them(Taliban) are to blame for the bombings in afghanistan...Do you expect us to pretend nothing happened on 9/11. Why are Bush and USA being blamed?...Do most people in England share this hatred of America...I'm not trying to offend any brits but are you jeoulous of America or something?
 
 
SMS
02:35 / 09.01.02
Pimpbot. No. People on this board have quite a negative view of the U.S. government as well as the British government. Or at least, the people in charge of it.

I usually ignore it, although I should probably read more of what they print here and share my thoughts, but I'm usually worn out by the time I get very far into any of these threads.

Dissenting views are good for the world, anyway.
 
 
fluid_state
02:41 / 09.01.02
I doubt it's just the brits, PBot. Dissenting views on America's new and everlasting war have been flying from just about all nationalities on this board, including your own. There are lots of dissenting voices out in the real world, too... they just don't get any time on television, and so it seems they don't exist.

Slim: you just keep thinking that. try not to read anything that might change your mind. watch more tv, it makes your brain grow... smaller.
 
 
Slim
03:29 / 09.01.02
quote: Slim: you just keep thinking that. try not to read anything that might change your mind. watch more tv, it makes your brain grow... smaller.

I admit that I did not read all the threads Cherry provided. However, Cherry's assertion that Bush's reason for starting the war is monetary is ludicrous.

And I almost never watch the news on television.
 
 
fluid_state
04:07 / 09.01.02
why is it ludicrous?
 
 
Slim
04:14 / 09.01.02
Because it means that Bush would start a war, murder and threaten political stability for money. I may not be his biggest fan, but he is not that evil.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:41 / 09.01.02
Perhaps now is a good time to point out that the only nation ever condemned for terrorism by the World Court remains... America, for its actions in Nicaragua. A condemnation which was summarily dismissed by the American government, at the same time as its aggression in Nicaragua was stepped up, aggression which included the targetting of "soft" (ie, civilian) targets.

It is a mistake to think that George W. Bush is "evil", but only because that implies he's any different from the Presidents that came before him (I doubt that too many people here harbour any illusions about Reagan or Bush Senior, but the Clinton administration's culpability for the bombing of Sudan's main pharmaceutical plant, for starters, is worth remembering).

None of which means that this Brit is under any illusions about actions committed by the British state in the past couple of centuries that could accurately be described as "terrorism", or our continued support for and in fact reliance upon acts of terrorism and states which use terrorism as their default method of foreign policy.

(And yes, I am channeling Uncle Noam Chomsky - one of my favourite Americans - today.)

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
Fist Fun
10:01 / 09.01.02
Hmmm, I just read 9/11...I wonder where I could get more info on Al-Shifa and Nicaragua...great commentary but I need the context to weigh it up
 
 
Slim
11:14 / 09.01.02
Well put, Flyboy. I am aware of America's terrorist actions and support them no more than I do Bin Laden's. However, I still believe that the motivation for this war is the fact that the Bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of 3,000 Americans. Had the Taliban given him up, the war would have been avoided. Unfortunately, they did not and therefore America has no choice but to hunt him down. I think the fact that most Americans would have done the same thing Bush is doing means that our actions are a response to 9/11 and not an attempt to make money.

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but even if money is a motive here, I believe the good (the capture of Bin Laden) still outweighs the bad (the bastard Bush making money).
 
 
rizla mission
11:41 / 09.01.02
Well I've been reading abour American foriegn policy over the past few weeks, and it seems to me that,

rule one: the main motive is AALLWWWAAYYSSS money.

(though admittedly I haven't done the cold war period, during which I gather, it sometimes wasn't)
 
 
MJ-12
12:28 / 09.01.02
In a way, but if you look at the people who stand to make gains, they already have money far beyond their ability to use. Money is simply a token they use to keep track of their own power & ego gratification.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:47 / 09.01.02
Slim, I can understand why you find that suggestion "ludicrous." However, I'm merely pointing out the facts. I don't think that W is "Evil" (actually I bet on a personal level he's a fine individual) but I do question the motives for why we are involved in this war.

Yes I am well aware that the reason we are allegedly involved in this war is to capture a known terrorist. Yet even that seems a bit ludicrous to me. Did we start a war with Buffalo NY when Timothy McVeigh was on the loose because that was where he grew up? Now that's just my opinion - to start a war in order to capture ONE GUY is ridiculous. And you are free to disagree with me and tell me why you do, and I may even end up agreeing with you.

Now, let's say in fact that I am wrong and you are right, and we are in this war with only the purest and most noble of intentions. Even if that IS the case, I still would rather reach that conclusion by looking at ALL of the angles of our possible involvement rather than just going with the first answer I'm told. Again, that's just me, and I'm not saying I'm right - you're free to do things as you wish.

I had a very interesting chat with a gent who is in the intelligience branch of the military (he's my roomate's sister's boyfriend) on Christmas night. It really could have been my most thought-provoking and enjoyable discussion of the whole month, come to think of it. I mentioned EVERYTHING I linked to in my first post here. And you know what? He ASSURED me that those were major reasons why we were in fact fighting this war. Not agreed - CONFIRMED!

His angle on this, though, was that this is one of the main objectives of ANY military, particularly a military belonging to an empire state such as the U.S., and thus it was not only in our best interest, but in the best interest of the world at large, for a country such as the U.S. to be in control of an area with as much political instability as Central Asia. He also pointed out that in ANY military operation you obviously want a "gain" for your nation, and clearly a gain of control of that pipeline would be such a gain.

Interesting stuff.

But obviously that's just one guy, and I could be making all this shit up, so take it as you will.

Now, I want to adress those who claim that because I or anyone else "hates America" because we deign to question its government and its policies with a hearty FUCK. YOU!!!

I can't tell you how much that attitude pisses me off. You know, it's because of courageous folks who stood up and fought for what they believed in that this country even exists in the first place. At least, that's what they taught ME in U.S. History class. But maybe we had different textbooks.

Now, maybe those people who stood up and fought were white male puritans who wanted things their way, but I still cling to the basic idea that I AND EVERY OTHER AMERICAN IS GUARANTEED THE FREEDOMS THE BILL OF RIGHTS GRANTS.

Personally, I feel it is the duty of EVERY American to examine what their government is doing and express their opinion on its actions. And if you call that hating America, then I don't know what country you're from.


Grr.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]
 
 
alas
14:29 / 09.01.02
It is perfectly valid to question whether
quote:Bush would start a war, murder and threaten political stability for money . . .
Personally, I don't think he started the war out of financial concerns, but like a good capitalist, he and CHENEY, esp., took advantage of an unexpected opportunity. And they're doing it <...> as a way to create even more political and economic domination for a very few, very wealthy people--largely in the US, but also Britain, and in the Middle East.

Christopher Hitchens, for example, who is a harsh critic of Chomsky's reaction to this whole event and has pretty much supported war as a just response to 9/11, recently reported something I had missed:
quote:Consider the following. On September 11, you could
not fly and I could not fly. The national airspace was
locked down. But twenty-four members of the bin
Laden family, living in the United States, were
gathered by private jet under the auspices of Prince
Bandar Bin-Sultan, the Saudi ambassador in
Washington. With what he gratefully describes as the
cooperation of the FBI, the Prince mustered all the
bin Ladens, who at the first opportunity were taken
under FBI escort to Boston's Logan Airport
(departure point for two of the death squads) and
then permitted to fly home with no questions asked. I
do not think that any question of racial profiling would
have been involved if members of the immediate bin
Laden tribe had been inconvenienced to the extent of
being asked a few questions.

For the rest of the story, go toThe Nation.
Now, if this were strictly about bin Laden, and not also about protecting rich asses, then why did that happen?

And I want to underscore the points being made here by noting that US leaders have throughout the 19th & 20th centuries started wars, murdered, and threaten political stability for increased power and economic dominance. The Mexican War in 1848 was probably the first example (it _and_ slavery sent Henry David Thoreau to jail in his famous act of civil disobedience).

Bush is no more "evil" than his predecessors. (But Bush, note, did come to office, however, in my view, as--essentially--a serial killer with 152 victims to his name, and, worse yet, refused every opportunity to redress the inequities in the Texas system.

I mock Bush's use of the phrase "the evil one" for Osama Bin Laden, so I certainly don't see him as "the evil doer." His "evil" is more a systemic evil--larger and less human than Osama bin Laden's, which is more at a scale I can understand--at least his has a face, it is called a crime. Calling deaths in war "collaterol damage," eg, is an example of this kind of abstract, take no responsibility "evil" that is almost worse because it is slippery and refuses the name most applicable to it.

<edited for clarity. and I second the "hearty FUCK. YOU." re: both you're for us or against us. AND "if you're against us you must be jealous." puh-leazzze.>

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: alas ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:20 / 09.01.02
Here's some more grist for your "Oil is the Key" theory:

Today the Bush admin. announced the abandonment of a joint Gov't/private sector initiative to produce more fuel effiecent cars:

quote: Begun in 1993, the joint venture between the federal government and the
Big Three domestic automakers was seen as a way to put family-size sedans that get 80 miles per gallon into showrooms by 2004.

Using advanced aerodynamics, new engine technologies and lighter composite materials, the companies have produced prototype vehicles getting 70 mpg, but have not come near developing a fleet of such vehicles for mass production.

Instead, the administration intends to focus on speeding up development of hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicles, a technology that has attracted intense interest in recent years, although probably a decade away from
producing large numbers of cars


Full story here

SUVs caused this war. Or did they?
 
  
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