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Godel's Incompleteness Theorems

 
 
Lurid Archive
09:16 / 02.09.02
Godel's Incompleteness Theorems seem to get bandied about all the time and people claim all sorts of philosophical conclusions from them. Personally, I think that the meaning of the theorems is unclear, though many would disagree. However, I do understand what they actually say and I've noticed that discussions about Godel tend to be riddled with misconceptions. So I'd like to spark off a debate by describing the results in what I hope is fairly accessible language. I apologise if the tone is patronising. I should also make clear that I am not an expert on this.



I think it is fair to say that up until the nineteenth century, mathematicians believed mathematics to possess an independent existence. This is
realism
(or Platonism, though that is misleading) and many present day mathematicians hold this view, at least superficially.

So when Euclid described his

geometry
, many believed it to be the one true geometry. It seemed "obvious", after all. But the arrival of
non-Euclidean geometry, which was much contested for some time, seemed to undermine this. A modern realist would say that what mathematicians hadn't realised is that, as well as Euclidean geometry, there also exists non-Euclidean geometry.

A formalist would say something else. She might say that mathematics only exists insofar as the writing one uses to describe it. Mathematics, by this view, is a game where one specifies the rules and plays. So by a certain definition of geometry (specified by the first four Euclidean postulates) there are three geometries. None of them is "true", they are simply consequences of the geometrical game one chooses to play.

One of the first major proponents of formalism was David Hilbert (probably the greatest mathematician of his day and the most influential figure in 20th century maths). Hilbert, along with others, most notably Russell and Whitehead, wanted to place maths on a sure formalist footing. That is, for each area of maths, write down the rules of the particular game and show that everything follows from those rules.

The way to do this was to use formal logic. This is a very cumbersome type of language, that no mathematician could really work or think in, but which contains sufficient expressive power to avoid the Euclidean trap. Moreover, it is extremely precise so one can prove things about the manipulation of this language - metamathematics. Briefly, a logical system contains axioms and rules of inference. For a formalist, the axioms are arbitrary assertions in logic that one decides are "true" for this particular game. The rules of inference are "moves" that allow one to pass from one "true" statement to another. As it stands, a logical system has no intrinsic meaning. However, in cases of interest one chooses the axioms to capture the essence of some area of maths, say arithmetic. So one usually has an interpretation in mind.

Hilbert wanted to cut the uncertainty out of mathematics and put it on a sound footing, as had been done for the previously suspect calculus of
Newton
and
Leibniz
. I think that Hilbert envisaged acquiring an iron clad certainty in his anti realism. Namely, he wanted to be able to take an area of maths and pin it down with some axioms. This would involve completely identifying the maths with the logical system so that anything that might be said about the maths could be obtained by playing the axiom game.

Here I should introduce some terminology about logical systems. A proof is a sequence of moves in the axiom game. The end of the sequence will be a logical statement that has been proved. You should think of this as a formalist notion of "truth", which of course needs to be defined as nothing is given.

A logical system is said to be complete if every statement in the system either has a proof or its converse has a proof. Intuitively, a system is complete if every statement is either formally true or false. This is exactly what you might expect if you wanted to capture everything about arithmetic, for instance.

A logical system is said to be consistent if you can't prove any logical contradictions (things like, "This number is both even and not even"). Contradictions are bad if you want to model maths. In fact, it is much worse than you think since in an inconsistent system everything has a proof. In other words, if you have inconsistency then everything is both formally true and formally false.

Now along comes Kurt
Godel
(more properly, Goedel), who was himself a realist, to demonstrate in a fairly simple manner that Hilbert's highest hopes for formalism are in vain. (Formalism isn't completely discredited by Godel, however, just limited.) Using self referentiality and a version of the Liar paradox, Godel proved the following two Incompleteness Theorems:

Consider any consistent logical system, T, which is able, under some interpretation, to describe arithmetic.

1. T is always incomplete.

2. You can't determine if T is consistent by playing the axiom game in T.


So 1 says that there are always things that are neither formally true nor formally false. Most people interpret this to mean that you can never use logical systems to capture all of maths. There are more radical interpretations, however.

The second says that if you play the axiom game in T, you can never be sure that the whole thing won't collapse solely by playing this game. Some of you will no doubt realise that you could think of T from a different, larger perspective and there is a lot of maths in the vein. However, for the uncompromising formalist, to think of T in a different way means placing it "inside" another axiom game which you equally cannot be sure won't collapse. And if the large system collapses it brings the smaller one down with it. Hence the ultra strict formalist can never be sure that all of maths doesn't collapse.

Note that if all of maths "collapses" then 2+2=5 and also 2+2=10 and 2+2=129, etc, etc. To the realist this is absurd. The realist would interpret Godel's Theorems as saying that mathematical truth is not the same as axiom games and that sometimes, you can only see things are true by thinking "outside the box". This all makes sense for the realist since truth is for him a property of real mathematical objects.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:17 / 02.09.02
A little commentary.

Godel's Theorems require that, in a meta sense, maths statements are either true or false - the Law of the excluded middle - since otherwise you can dodge the Liar paradox. Even in maths there is a movement called Intuitionism that challenges this law. In my view, any real life situation cannot sensibly adhere to the Law of the excluded middle. I think that there is usually lots in between "true" and "false". This is one of the many reasons why I don't think that Godel's theorems have any application outside of a formal context. (More technically, Godel rests on hypotheses that aren't even satisfied by all mathematical logical systems. Geometry is an example of this.)

For instance, I don't think you can apply Godel to scientific reasoning. Even if you could, all it would tell you is that there are things science doesn't or can't know and that science might contradict itself. But this is fairly obvious by more direct means. I've yet to see an application of Godel to AI that I found convincing.

I think it interesting that one of the most profound maths philosophical statements has almost no impact on the practice of mathematics. In fact, maths philosophy is something that most mathematicians happily ignore. I think I first realised this when, many years ago, I asked my tutor about the validity of Intuitionism. She said, "They may be right, it may be the more reasonable position. But I don't care about the metaphysics of it. Maths is more fun if you accept the Law of the excluded middle and that is all the justification I need."

Now some links:

A well informed site that tries to answer common questions about Godel, from a realist perspective, and also has a technical sketch of the proof.

Go here for a pretty readable sketch of the proofs of Godel's Incompleteness Theorems. Still a bit dense, but just about comprehensible if you aren't scared of maths. Yes, I'm talking to both of you.

People talking about Godel's Theorems.

You can actually read Godel's paper online, along with a preface. I wouldn't recommend trying to read it, as it is pretty hardcore.
 
 
SMS
20:17 / 02.09.02
I should know a bit more about this by the end of the semester, but I believe the incompleteness theorem relies on "sentences" having a finite length. A sentence is something like

(x --> y) read "x implies y"
or
~x read "not x"

As far as I know, we should be able to come up with a form of logic that doesn't demand sentences have finite length.

Of course, I could be wrong about this. It might be just that finite length makes the proof easier.
 
 
grant
15:19 / 03.09.02
Even in maths there is a movement called Intuitionism

I'd just like to mention how beautiful this is.

I'm not precise enough for maths, but am wondering if maybe Goedel only matters once you get right up close to something - that from a reasonable distance, true and false matter and are clear and distinct, but from a microscopic perspective, they fall off into fuzziness: mostly-right, mostly-wrong. Or am I overlaying physics onto math?
 
 
—| x |—
18:35 / 03.09.02
… wondering if maybe Goedel only matters once you get right up close to something…

This triggers in me a feeling of half the story. I think I understand what you might be saying about this. If I catch your drift, then you appear to be saying that it is the in-depth analysis that Godel applies to arithmetic which yields his result. The proof itself relies on a very tedious and rigourous coding of the language in which arithmetic is expressed. There is a way of numbering the entire set of sentences and symbols that are used to capture arithmetic in symbolic logic, and the contradiction that Godel derives which shows his result is entirely dependent on this “microscopic” analysis.

However, in the spirit of paradox, I would also say that the result is also dependent on the “macroscopic” as well; that is, the incompleteness theorem(s) take the whole structure of arithmetic, as stated in some set of axioms, and show that this structure can not say of itself whether or not it is consistent. In this respect I think the analogy you make with physics is interesting because, like in physics, it appears to be both the microscopic and macroscopic that leads to these “strange” results, and the medium sized objects get stuck into the humdrum of normality (if you catch my drift)! In other words, like a car driving down the road does not appear to be altered by neither the application of Relativity nor the effects of Quantum Mechanics, 2 + 2 = 4 seems as if it is not threatened by the incompleteness theorems.

It seems to me that it is the interim between two extremes where things settle down and become regular, or for lack of a better word, normal. It is once we start poking around at the extremes—the very large: the whole universe or the whole T; the very small: the quantum world or all the bits that make up T—that we uncover the difficulties and the weirdness which do not seem immediately present in the world of medium sized slow moving objects.
 
 
SMS
18:35 / 06.09.02
mostly-right, mostly-wrong. Or am I overlaying physics onto math?
You're overlaying physics onto math. The theorem does not say anything is mostly right or mostly wrong. It only says that it is possible to formulate a mathematical sentence which cannot be proven true or false. This is not such a terrible thing, really. All of math is still based on things that are proven true.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:11 / 06.09.02
...I believe the incompleteness theorem relies on "sentences" having a finite length. SMS

Not sure exactly what you mean, but if you are referring to the lengths of proofs then you are right. ("Infinite statements" could mean lots of things, none of which strike me at the moment as particularly important. I could be wrong.)

I think that Gentzen showed that allowing infinite proofs - some axiom games take infinitely long to play, yet still have an end - you can completely avoid Godel. For some reason, there are mathematicians who are unconvinced that you can justify "2+2=4" by an appeal to the tame structure of infinite sets.

Moving on to grant and mod's points

I think that math is different from physics as in physics there is a reality to refer to. This reality works as an arbiter.

While this may be problematic in physics, it is more so in math as it is hard to put your finger on the reality being referred to. (Did I mention that I am a fairly hard line math anti-realist formalist? Surprised?) To that extent, I don't think Godel reflects things like relativity or QM. I think it says something about a computer's limitations in describing all reality.

Having said that, Chaitin has a lot to say about how Godel type incompleteness can be found everywhere in physics. (He's worth a google, as he is obviously very smart.)

Back to SMS,
All of math is still based on things that are proven true.

Ahhh, yes. But that does rather beg the question of what is meant by "truth". Especially if you think about Godel's second theorem.
 
 
—| x |—
09:58 / 07.09.02
It only says that it is possible to formulate a mathematical sentence which cannot be proven true or false.

To be pedantic, there are an infinite number of sentences which cannot be proven true or false.

Moving on to grant and mod's points

Whoa, hold on a second there Lurid, please read my post over carefully! I am picking up on what Grant said in terms of analogy only and nothing more. The only thing I am saying is that Godel’s results depend upon a “microscopic” analysis of the basic elements that make up maths as framed in logic—the connectors, open bracket, closed bracket, the comma, variables, function symbols, the two quantifiers, sentence letters, and predicates—and the “macroscopic” analysis of this structure as a whole. The analogy of this with physics is that it is a “microscopic” analysis of the bits and a “macroscopic” analysis of the whole which leads to strangeness (the “strangeness” in the case at hand being Godel’s results).

We could also point to a similar thing that occurs within set theory: the “microscopic” in this instance being the null set, and the “macroscopic” being the class of all sets. Neither are accountable in terms of set theory: the null set is problematic and the class of all sets can only be discussed outside of the frame of set theory (as a “class” )! Again, it appears that it is the middle ground, “the world of medium sized slow moving objects” in our analogy with physics, and the sets that are neither the empty set nor the “set of all sets” (a contradiction) where things, like “2+2=4” in arithmetic, seem to be safe and uninteresting.

I have some other things I want to say that have occurred to me over the last couple of days while thinking about this, but unfortunately I do not have the time to get to them now. Also, not to start trouble, but to give fair warning, I might have to take you up on this, Lurid:

I think that math is different from physics as in physics there is a reality to refer to.

but I'll have to get to that later too!
 
 
SMS
03:34 / 10.09.02
Ahhh, yes. But that does rather beg the question of what is meant by "truth". Especially if you think about Godel's second theorem.
grmblegrmblegooglegrmble....

(3) Godel did not prove "the undecidability of the consistency of axiom
systems". What Godel's second theorem establishes is that the
consistency of a theory T is not (for a wide class of T) provable
in T itself. The first incompleteness theorem establishes that T
is incomplete, i.e. that there exist sentences A such that neither
A nor its negation is provable in T.


hmm.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:17 / 10.09.02
Hmm. SMS. What your quote displays is a (fairly reasonable) metaphisical position. Namely, that math statements are in some "real" sense either true or false. The problem I have with it is the the dishonesty of it. No one can talk about Godel and not address (math) metaphysics. I'll be upfront. I'm an anti realist formalist. That has problems.

But so does realism. The point is that to understand what Godel means requires you to take a position. So I'll ask again. What is mathematical truth?

Mod: I understand that you have an interest in realism. And it isn't a belief that I can really challenge. But it is a belief.
 
 
—| x |—
16:32 / 11.09.02
"Mod: I understand that you have an interest in realism."

How and/or why is it that you "understand" this?

Are you a "realist" when it comes to non-mathematical things?
 
 
—| x |—
16:55 / 11.09.02
Also, do you not feel that there is a difference between "an interest in..." and "a belief in..."?
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:07 / 11.09.02
Sorry if you feel I am attacking you, mod. I expressed myself badly, I think. It seemed that you were taking a math realist position and that ties in with my impression of what yuo have said in the past. I wanted to point out that it is a point of view, but that there are others. Everything requires a certain level of belief when you question things at this level.

Are you a "realist" when it comes to non-mathematical things?

To be honest, my position is rather involved and would take me too long to outline.
 
  
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