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Everything is Divination

 
 
Seth
19:15 / 28.08.02
I've resisted posting this up to now, concerned that I'd get the "Duh, exp, that's kinda obvious" response. But fuck it, it might start an interesting discussion, which is better than me looking good any day...

I've had two main problems with most divination up to now. The first was Biblical condemnation, to be honest. As my perspective on my faith has widened, my belief in the final authority of scripture has changed from dogmatic (which I wouldn't have admitted to myself in a million years) to fairly realistic and critical. The second was my upbringing, raised in a Charismatic Christian family in which my father is an internationally recognised prophet. Without pulling punches, forms of divination that rely on some kind of external framework just seemed plain cowardly to me. I'd been trained to give prophecy without looking at external phenomena, trained to be critical of people who based their insight on what was being picked up using their senses (although I naturally seemed to perform a kinesthetic check on knowledge/insight/wisdom that I felt was downloaded). And I still haven't totally given up that way of thinking, either: I recently became incensed at a Church meeting in which a glorified NLP practitioner passed off what he was doing as something more than just observation techniques and communication skills. Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with NLP, but I have got a major problem with liars.

The difficulty with adapting from my prophetic training to other divinatory techniques has been a predominantly philosophical difference. Christian prophecy involves communion with God to determine His will, with very specific results; a lot of divination is based on a universe that is chaotic and random, and gives results that suggest more of a flow in a certain direction rather than specifics. Put simply, one seemed to me to emphasise divine purpose, the other had its basis in an arbitrary framework that seemed in direct opposition to that purpose. Having mellowed somewhat in the last year, I'm kinda working on my stance between these two seemingly contradictory approaches. On the one hand, my understanding of God and His will is changing daily, and now rests on probabilities rather than absolutes. On the other, I'm starting to realise that everything is divination anyway - that we can't avoid spending our entire lives interpreting the seemingly random and chaotic data that comes our way.

So that's my work in progress change in understanding, based on my perception rather than any attempt at a commentary on the diversity of divination systems, which I know very little about anyway. Please forgive any judgementalism and put it down to inexperience. As far as the purpose of this thread, respond to the above in any way you like. I'm particularly interested in whether people draw a line between observations and interpretations made in their *normal* daily lives and their practise of divinatory techniques, and if so why. I'm also interested in the pros and cons of various techniques, and how they compare to each other.
 
 
Seth
19:26 / 28.08.02
BTW, I consider my father's teaching and training on the subject to be second to none within the Christian faith. Anyone who's interested can check out his book here. I still use the mechanics of what he puts forward, although I have a disagreement on certain of the anecdotes (been a while since I read it). It's particularly strong on emphasising the rights and the safety of the person who is receiving prophecy. I may still have a few copies kicking around, if anyone wants a freebie.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:59 / 28.08.02
All I know is that I'm experiencing divination and little "winks" (as I call them) from God and the universe in tons of everyday things now......the words on t-shirts of people that pass by me on the street, things scribbled on the subway, an article in the paper I read at a particular moment, a book someone is reading opposite me in a waiting room. It's fascinating stuff. It happens both when I'm expecting it and when I'm not expecting it.

I know I owe you an email, expr. -- sorry about the delay. If you have copies of your dad's book lying around, I'd love to take you up on the offer to get one!
 
 
Seth
20:10 / 28.08.02
Oops. I think I promised you one ages ago, didn't I? Sorry.

It'll have to wait til I get paid again now (20th September). I hate being skint all the time
 
 
Rev. Wright
20:59 / 28.08.02
I'm particularly interested in whether people draw a line between observations and interpretations made in their *normal* daily lives and their practise of divinatory techniques,

Its all about pattern finding to me, which ever way one utilises a technique.
STALKING
In a hunter gatherer tribe a medicine man's main role was to divine the resources necessary to feed, shelter and provide for the general well being of the community. As our confidence and ability in finding our basic resources improved, it became more about balance and harmony within the ecosystem and growth and development of the human condition.

I have found that divinationary techniques inpart a form of symbolism and a philosophy, both of which, when taken beyond the props, guide a person in their pattern finding and decision making.

AS mentioned within NLP, divination takes on the four stages in learning, until it becomes a subconscious sub-routine/ability/competence. What becomes important is HOW to communicate the information, so it can be best heeded.
 
 
—| x |—
21:07 / 28.08.02
Well, practitioners of divination, but perhaps more importantly, experienced teachers of divination, often say that there will come a time when you needn't use the physical representations of the symbols of the form of divination you are using. This is to say, you will learn to intuit the same symbols that you would otherwise need to see laid out in front of you in a physical manifestation.

This occurs sometimes with myself and runes. I will be thinking of something, and then I think about which rune or runes might be connected to the thoughts/event/situation/whatever. A rune or runes will rise into my consciousness and show me what I might need to know or understand. I have had occurrences of this where I will then go and consult my runes, and the same rune(s) that appeared before my mind's eye will appear before my real eye!

It seems to me that the fact that you can admit to your previous position as dogmatic shows your are seeing through it. YAY! Myself, I don't see any problem in reconciling the notion of divine will with that of the information gained through a given form of divination: if there is a God, then why wouldn't God's hand guide the casting to reveal this divine will? It may be beneficial for you to think of God as some writers refer to the Self (with the capital), but then again, maybe it would be too much of a stretch and prove to be destructive as opposed to being helpful.

Myself, I am leaning towards the idea that observation is interpretation: you can't do one without doing the other (two sides, one coin--bleh--tired of that cliché ), or perhaps better, that observing and interpreting are one and the same act.

I think that the technique that you use is going to reflect where you are at, what you've available to you, and what you are comfortable with. I do not think that any one form seems superiour to any others, but then again, I am only seriously experienced with runes for divination.
 
 
Rev. Wright
22:10 / 28.08.02
Myself, I am leaning towards the idea that observation is interpretation: you can't do one without doing the other (two sides, one coin--bleh--tired of that cliché ), or perhaps better, that observing and interpreting are one and the same act.


The peculiar features of quantum theory are:-

The wave property of matter and energy: Any object which obeys quantum theory (e.g. a particle such as an electron) can be in more than one place at once. Its position is ‘smeared out’ into a probability function, which tells us the probability of finding it an any given place when we measure its position;

The particle property of energy and matter: when we measure the position of a quantum object, we pin it down, as it were, to a particle-like state - i.e. , previous to our measurement, the object wasn’t really anywhere in ordinary space-time; it only had a probabilistic wave nature; after we measure its position, it gets a real position in ordinary space-time. This is called ‘collapsing the probability function’ or ‘collapsing the wavefunction’. What happens is that our observation causes its properties to manifest.

The observer-dependent universe: The fact that our observation creates the particular manifestation of the reality we are observing, as in point (2).

The quantum jump: quantum objects have the property of disappearing from one place and reappearing in another without crossing the intervening distance. An electron moving from one orbital in an atom to another does it in this way.

Indeterminacy: The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that we cannot measure with arbitrary accuracy the position and the momentum of any quantum object at the same time. The more accurately we measure the position of an electron, the less accurately must we measure its momentum. Position and momentum are a conjugate pair of variables, and Heisenberg’s equation also shows that there are other conjugate pairs of variables, like energy and time.

Non-locality: The collapse of the probability function caused by our observation implies that the observer-dependency is non-local in space; this non-locality is further born out by the experiments of Alain Aspect, and John Bell’s interpretation of them. In these experiments it was demonstrated that if two photons are fired out from the same source in opposite directions, and we polarize one of them, the other gets polarized too. Somehow, they remain connected, even thought they are traveling apart at the speed of light.



Perception is inherent within our nature, it's the judgementalism that concerns me.

What are you manifesting today?
 
 
Little Mother
14:34 / 29.08.02
When divination came up in another thread I think I said something along the line of I rarely get told anything I didn't know in my heart already. I don't draw much of a line between my spiritual and everyday life anyway, I didn't during my time as a christian and carried that outlook on when I took on my current path. So divination, whether it be with my cards or any other method is a part of my daily life.
 
 
Naked Flame
21:08 / 30.08.02
I used to do cards, and runes. I did it professionally for a bit, which is less interesting than it sounds. By the end of my six months there I progressed from cards, to runes, to a crystal, to ashtrays, the wall, the carpet, the hands of the clock, traffic noise, background noise in my head...

it's all one, really.

Think about it whichever way is most fun, opens up the most possiblity, and gives you the most scope to lead a useful life.
 
 
telyn
23:07 / 30.08.02
You talk about divination as a very specific thing, as sacred prophecy. You also say

" everything is divination anyway - that we can't avoid spending our entire lives interpreting the seemingly random and chaotic data that comes our way. "

I think these are two extremes of the same skill: an exponential sliding scale between sacred prophecy and mundane understanding of everyday living. I also agree with Little Mother, in that some people use a 'sixth' sense all the time.

I don't think this sixth sense is anything separate from what we have already, but that it is more likely that we have come to develop our subconcious ability to assess a situation and get a gut reaction or hunch. This is something you do anyway whenever you step into a room containing people, and that you would be relatively happy to accept that whatever judgement you came to was based upon the input you received.

In many ways I think of human perception as similar to that of a computer that can compute many billions of strands of information, and calculate the probablities of each possible outcome. We only receive a tiny fraction of that information to our concious - the tip of the iceburg - and often not in a very useful format. The people who are best at reading situations or trends are those who can access this subconcious information the most freely.

I agree, everything is divination, or rather extended calculation of "seemingly random and chaotic data."
 
  
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