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Body modifications

 
 
bitchiekittie
17:11 / 27.08.02
how far is too far? is there such a place?

what (if anything) do you find beautiful, ridiculous, enviable, stupid? anything youd like to do, never see again, wish youd never done?

my question includes all body modifications, rather than just the ones displayed on this site - including cosmetic surgery
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
18:33 / 27.08.02
My feeling is: it's your body to do with what you'd like. As for myself, I don't know if I'll ever get so much as a tattoo, so I have to say that I'm a little freaked by the whole self-amputation thing. I'm not sure I see the point and I see a whole lot of detriment to it. But to each her or his own.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:35 / 27.08.02
Coincidentally enough, I saw a book of extreme body modification just the other day. It included a man who had self-amputated one of his hands with an electric saw and another who took off his own nipples. My first reaction was that some of the people were really fucked up. How could anyone choose to go through life with only one hand? But when I thought about it, and the possibility that to 'save people from themselves, maybe there should be someone deciding if they can be allowed to do that kind of thing' I realised how wrong that attitude was. Yes, there may be some who are in need of psychiatric help, but I think people must have the freedom to do anything that makes them feel more complete, as long as it doesn't involve hurting anyone or anything else. So, that being said, nothing is too far. While I wouldn't take a hand off, who the hell am I to judge someone else who does? Or decide they can't? A lot of people think I'm wierd for having a tattooed thumb. I think it's pretty normal - for me. I think a lot of scarification looks gorgeous, but I wouldn't do it myself - my right arm is heavily scarred from self-harm, and so cutting would bring back some horrible memories. But I can live with them now, and I can't wish I'd never done them - they were the expression of intense distress, inevitable in the circumstances. In the long run I'm a lot more sane because of having got them.
 
 
Mazarine
18:53 / 27.08.02
I heard on the radio about some people who's new method of scarification is to have someone else- a friendly someone else- shoot them. Which strikes me as truly stupid, given the fact that bullets ricochet around in the body all the time, and there's no way to ensure that it'll just miss vital organs.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:58 / 27.08.02
I used to have thirteen piercings, so I guess I should be in favour of letting anybody do whatever the Hell they like with their bodies. It does get addictive though and I clearly remember the urge to go further and get more extreme.

I am in favour, really, on the principle that I don't imagine anybody would do anything so extreme without really really wanting it and that, for them, it makes them look more like they want to be. Shouldn't let the fact that I regard the pierced period of my life as a fun thing I experienced and enjoyed and then put away and moved on beyond as any sort of indicator with regard to other people. I have a few small physical scars which will always be with me but otherwise I have become Joe Normal again, which is what suits me.

Too far? Most of what I saw at those url's would be too far for me but I suppose that's not the point. The enforced Chinese bound foot I would not favour but if someone wants to chisel their own feet into a wedge then good luck to them. Makes no sense to me. Finding sexual pleasure in experiencing pain is fundamental to much of the gay SM life and I guess I'm just a bit less extreme in the sort of torture I would submit to.

Beautiful? For me, absolutely none of it. The guy with the flame tattoo round his arsehole might look cute for all of five minutes and then it would, like the real thing or a beautiful sunset, become dull again. But I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just don't really like tattoos much myself though God knows lots of other people do. I've met guys in West Africa with authentic tribal scarrifications and they were very beautiful. I also met other guys there who, in these less ritualistic modern times, had no scarrifications done in youth and, to be honest, they just as handsome.

Enviable, not a one of them. Envy the fact that they have the money to pay for the surgery but maybe they've saved every penny for years. To derive such pleasure from the way you look, whether or not anyone else finds it a turn on, is perhaps enviable. There is definitely a degree of superficiality and vanity there which I might be suspicious of but that really is just me. If the whole equation is much simpler for them, then good luck to them. I'd be more interested in what was inside someone's head than what was tattooed on their ass or impaled in their scrotum.

Stupid? Only if, like me, there comes a time when they want to glide, chameleon-like, into a new look but they have Aztec ear-reels turning their earlobes into wispy threads.

I remember a mentally ill woman whom I nursed and the years of hassle and operations, and concomittant effect upon her mental health, of having several huge tattoos removed by laser surgery. Can't remember what all the tattoos were of now but I do remember several of them were the names and faces of Bay City Rollers whom she'd had a thing about in her youth. Have known a few guys who had the wrong woman's name tattoed on a body part and then had masking tattoos over the top.

I remember a guy in a shop once told me I looked like a shower curtain and bust a gut laughing at his own wit. I could and should have planked him there and then for his insolence but I wasn't the hard man I appeared to be with all my big rings and spikes. And in retrospect, I knew he was right. I did look like a shower curtain and unplucked all the metal over time.

Saw a couple today who must have had about forty things puncturing their faces and perhaps many more under their clothes. They both looked very unappealing but maybe they would have looked just as unattractice without and at least I noticed them. They were making a statement. Just not a very pretty one.
 
 
Ganesh
19:26 / 27.08.02
%What I find weird is 'too far'. Obviously.%

I'm writing this at work and cannot access the link, so I'm forced to imagine what is and isn't 'extreme' body modification. In general, I'm supportive of the 'your body is your own to do with as you please' credo, but want to make a few provisos:

1) Those involved in the body-modifier's plans have an equal right to refuse to assist them in the alteration. Just as most tattooists will not tattoo someone's face, surgeons have the right to refuse involvement in an operation they think is not in the individual's best interests.

2) There remains the vexed question of those who are psychiatrically disordered and modify their bodies (amputation, castration) for, say, psychotic reasons. They (should) have the right to be protected from the consequences of their actions while they remain acutely unwell.

3) Individuals who are not psychiatrically unwell and choose to modify their bodies in extreme ways are fully responsible for the social and financial consequences of their actions. How this is reconciled with the concept of the welfare state is problematic, to say the least...

If all these factors can be balanced adequately, I have no real intellectual argument with body modification.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
20:18 / 27.08.02
As most bodmod involves pain then it would be too far for me but like drugs, far be it for me to tell you what's good and what isn't.

I would question the stability of a flesh-braider though.
 
 
Saint Keggers
20:22 / 27.08.02
Well my idea of extreem bod mod is getting a bad haircut. ALthough I am debating on geting a tatoo (and maybe a nipple ring). As for personal tastes.. I dont like the toungue ring or eyebrow. Nipple rings on females are a wrong. Belly rings are great but anything below that nyet.
 
 
—| x |—
20:54 / 27.08.02
Hmmm...I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to cut off either of their hands; unless, of course, they wanted a hook so they could be a better pirate!
 
 
w1rebaby
22:27 / 27.08.02
One of the few things still up on the web with my own name on it, which I've been trying to get taken down in case employers see it, is an article on "positive vs negative" body modification. In that case, written while I was cutting, and also piercing.

"Too far" is when your body modification interferes with the rest of your life, like most hobbies. The aesthetic side is really in the eye of the beholder. Almost anything you get done, someone will love it. It's fashion, and pretty much everything can be removed if you want to. The really extreme "I want to be a tiger" stuff, I think is beyond this discussion. Most of it is cultural, and within that context almost anything is fine.
 
 
Ganesh
22:43 / 27.08.02
So what d'you mean by "interferes with the rest of your life" here? Suppose you want that level of... what, 'handicap'?... and are quite prepared to accept the consequences? Is it still 'too far'? By whose yardstick?
 
 
w1rebaby
22:50 / 27.08.02
Okay, "interferes" is a bad term, because it's dependent on quite how much interference you're willing to put up with. A nose stud interferes to an extent, you have to keep it clean etc.

I'd say "interferes with you living the rest of your life how you'd want to" might be better. If you're a vanilla clubbing freak, many piercings would interfere with the process of going out and getting laid. Others would have a different threshold.

You're not going to get me to set a blanket "too far" yardstick here... there is none. It's only metal going through the body, after all. It may cause pain and expense at times, but so does tanning.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:51 / 27.08.02
to clarify - if it stops you doing what you want to do, yet you can't help it, then it's a problem
 
 
Ganesh
22:59 / 27.08.02
Presumably individuals who go in for extreme body modification - and are not acutely psychiatrically unwell - have balanced up the pros and cons sufficiently that they consider the advantages to outweigh the limitations.

I'm not sure why Tiger Man is outwith the scope of this discussion - or, really, why he's an obvious example of 'going too far'. He seems very happy with his modifications thus far, he's sourced tattooists, dentists and surgeons willing to carry them out, he's funded them...

Often, 'understandability' becomes a pseudo-objective yardstick: breast augmentation is readily-understandable within our culture; having feline whiskers implanted is not. Within my provisos above, I really don't think there is a 'too far'.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:14 / 27.08.02
yeah, quite possibly the tiger man is an example of someone who's perfectly justified within his own mind, happy with what he's doing and not causing anyone else any trouble. And who could object to that?

I'm not convinced there is any such thing as an ethical limit beyond which piercers must not go, apart from maybe piercings which harm other people (a mustard gas septum ring?) The point is when they start to interfere with the piercer's other desires.
 
 
Ganesh
23:43 / 27.08.02
Well... doesn't everyone balance a mixture of conflicting desires? Unless one believes the body-modifier is 'not in his/her right mind', surely it's up to them to decide what's 'interference' and what's not? I guess I'm saying, Fridge, that seems much more of a theoretical point than a practical one.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:07 / 28.08.02
It should be more a practical point, and that's an issue - it's all very well saying "it's all self expression" etc but is there an obvious point at which someone crosses the line into damaging self-harm, that you should try to talk them out of? Or not? Is the limit something that is basically suicide? Causing utter alienation from society through your new physical appearance?

(Here's a potentially contentious point: I don't think self-harm is automatically a bad thing. I think it can be a means of regaining control, as valid as other forms of emotional release. I think the blood-letting aspect gives it a symbolic kick that is out of proportion to what it actually represents. But anyway.)

looks at Ganesh questioningly at what point would you tell a patient who was coming to see you, "your body modification is becoming a problem"?
 
 
Ganesh
00:19 / 28.08.02
In the absence of psychiatric illness, if they've found specialists willing to carry out the modification and they've considered and are fully accepting of the likely consequences, then what I think is neither here nor there. If someone in this situation came to see me, I'd go talk them through possible worst-case scenarios, make sure they were informed of infection risk, etc. and emphasise the 'personal responsibility' aspect. Then I'd leave them to it.

I think the question of whether amputating a limb, say, is "suicide" or liberation isn't really mine to answer. If I were a surgeon, I don't think I'd carry out the operation, but that's hardly the point.
 
  
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