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Is the Head Shop a ghetto?

 
  

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Ganesh
22:59 / 26.08.02
This is not a new theme for Barbelith, but I wonder whether it's worth canvassing opinion again. This is based on the following observations:

1) Some people - often those make erudite, thoughtful contributions to other parts of the board - never post in the Head Shop;

2) Relatively 'serious' topics - discussion of social class, say - seem to be cropping up fairly frequently in the Conversation;

3) There appears to be a lot of moderator activity going on there compared to the rest of the board; as well as the increasingly common deletion of 'flippant one-liners', I've been fielding requests from Head Shop moderators that posts be altered because parts of them are 'irrelevant';

4) The Head Shop's remit seems to be narrowing; for example, every time a 'medicine and society' topic is started, there are (quite possibly justified) attempts to move it into the Laboratory on the grounds that 'it's about health'. I find myself less certain as to whether such-and-such subject is or isn't 'Head Shop material'...

Personally, I've always seen the Head Shop as somewhere to discuss things in depth, attempt to generalise a little on a subject rather than merely producing unexamined anecdotes. It shouldn't all be theory and textbooks, but I've always thought Head Shop debate should tend toward the analytical.

What do people think? Is it a rarefied ghetto or is it too dumbed down? Is it over- or undermoderated? Do you post there or avoid it? Why?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:14 / 26.08.02
This:

I've been fielding requests from Head Shop moderators that posts be altered because parts of them are 'irrelevant'

smacks of over-moderation to me. Obviously, I've no idea about the specifics of these requests, but if it were me and a fellow moderator put forward their own alterations to somebody else's post in Policy or Music, I'd disagree straight away. It's not the same as completely deleting an off-topic post at all; delete part of a post and you run the risk of making the poster say what you want them to say or believe they should be saying. That's a huge no-no.
 
 
SMS
23:52 / 26.08.02
I agree with E Randy Dupre.

I always think it's strange that the Head Shop is thought of as inaccessible, somehow. To post frequently in the Laboratory, you need to have some level of understanding of science. To post in the Switchboard, you have to at least keep up with the news a little (or have a decent poly-sci background).

The Spectacle is even worse, because the topics are so much more specific.

You don't need anything to post in the Head Shop but an idea or a response to someone else's idea. Aside from the Conversation, it allows the broadest freedom for topics of any place on Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:36 / 27.08.02
I would suggest that the main proviso of the Head Shop is the same as those of the Laboratory, the Switchboard and the Magick - that threads remain on topic, that topic abstracts are paid attention to and adhered to with reasonable rigour, and that the core of each thread is discussion of that topic, rather than discussion of a side-topic (for which a new thread can be created; vide for an example of these questions in action the "Non Smoking NYC" thread in Switchboard) or off-topic ramblings.

Increasingly, I also suspect that the Head Shop should be kept clean of ad hominem attacks, lengthy and largely pointless autobiographical ramblings, irrelevant one-liners and, of course, attempts to put penes in ears. Where something doesn't do any harm, it can usually in good conscience be left to die, but if something is likely to yank an entire thread off-topic, or generate amounts of chaff that would make continued discussion on-topic difficult or impossible, I think there is a case for deletion.

That, I think, is where moderators have a difficult line to walk, particularly if a post is one part continued discussion to one part (any of the above) - I would contend that a better moderator code of practice might, for example, have prevented a number of threads on racism, paedophilia and abortion from descending into largely pointless slanging matches. The impact of new arrivals (who are not local people who understand local ways) may also have a part to play in these questions. And that in turn is why moderator suggestions need to be ratified by more than one moderator...

The "What class are you?" thread was posted in The Conversation to get the widest possible range of responses, and so people could talk about themselves without feeling obliged to advance an argument or continue a line of thought. The Conversation was therefore the right place for it. If there was a subsequent thread about the construction of class systems, one might stick it in the Head Shop.

Personally, I think the Conversation should be available as an ekklesia - if you want to, you should be able to start a thread on Israel, or smoking, or sexuality in the Conversation, in the knowledge that you will get a loose, freeform, often highly discursive or "rotty". While to an extent I would support SMatthew's contention that the HS is very open (all you need is an idea, or perhaps....a dream), I would suggest as a counterbalance that people should have an interest in a) ideas and b) other people's ideas to post there, and (again personally - I'm waiting for an FAQ, or a ruling, or a voice from on high otherwise) this is its "exclusivity".

Ultimately, however, the function of the moderators is within reason to represent the will of the board, or at least those who have invested in the Head Shop (which, I am not sure...), and so it shoul be easy enough to hack out a series of ground rules.
 
 
Panda.
00:37 / 27.08.02
I think the question is one of accessability.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:49 / 27.08.02
I'm very very keen that the Revolution topics remain very much on topic and that they are ALL seen as places for intelligent and seriously thoughtful discussion equally - just on different areas. The Head Shop is for philosophy and cultural studies, the Lab for science etc. Although it may seem like the Head Shop has a very small amount of threads in it, in fact this is because I did a fairly extensive moving scheme by putting in all the threads that were relevant to different fora into them a while back. This was done mainly because the LABORATORY was suffering and I felt it important that we redefine what the board's for...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:55 / 27.08.02
vide for an example of these questions in action the "Non Smoking NYC" thread in Switchboard) or off-topic ramblings.

Goddamn it, Haus, will you stop insisting my take is a bloody side issue? Get it through your head: if I thought it was a side issue, I wouldn't pollute the thread with it. Marginalising my opinion does not approach it.

In response to 'Nesh's worry - I'm sorry, Tom - I think the recent clarification of the roles of the different fora is going to lead to some withering away. Topics which previously might have wound up in the Head Shop are going into Switchboard and elsewhere, and whilst that is strictly speaking correct, it means they get approached with a 'Switchboard' ethos rather than and Head Shop one - Head Shop being, crudely, more broad and more likely to invoke Deleuze than Monbiot.

I still think a little blurring of the lines could be profitable.
 
 
Ganesh
08:21 / 27.08.02
Yeah - and the aforementioned 'Health & Gender' type threads were a good example of that: whether they fall under 'science' or 'culture' is something of a moot point, but when I've started that sort of topic in the Head Shop it's generally been because I want to generate a wider, more generally culture-based discussion than I associate with the Laboratory.

I'm in full agreement with the drive to remain as 'on topic' as possible, but I have serious reservations about deleting parts of other contributors' posts without their agreement. If someone did it to one of my posts, I'd be furious...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:27 / 27.08.02
Nick: you're quite right. That was more "off-topic" than side-topic. Because the thread was about reactions to a plan to ban smoking in the workplace in New York City, and you began your contribution by saying that you did not want to talk about a plan to ban smoking in the workplace, be it in New York City or not. Personally, I would have suggested a new thread, in Switchboard or Head Shop, on the ethics of smoking. This would have avoided accusations of off-topicality. Which, incidentally, any discussion of whether people are "marginalising" your opinions in a specific Switchboard thread by declaring them off-topic might also be accused of in a thread about the role of the Head Shop.

Topic abstracts. There for a reason.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...so, if we want to be productive and progressive, do we think certain moderator actions are entirely beyond the pale? I can see that editing sections out of a post could be seen as dodgy - conversely, if there is a one-part-discussion, one-part-abuse post, would it be logical to edit out any off-topic responses to the abuse part which did *not* contain any discussion of the topic? Is there a difference between deleting and altering text?

Also, something I have done of late is insert "moderator notes" - usually where someone has stuck up a URL without any context, to explain what it is and how it is relevant to the discussion, rather than either let it dangle or delete it, since it is usually somehting well-meaning and on-topic, just presented in a rather abrupt way. If these are clearly signposted as moderator notes, and not presented as the work of the original poster, is this acceptable?

I'm thinking that Private Messaging would probably help in a lot of cases - suggesting mods to users if they think it is justified rather than just acting...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:20 / 27.08.02
A big yes-yes to your last comment, Tann.

One method of moderation that's been used in Music is that if a moderator beieves a post or thread should be altered/deleted for reasons other than simple URL-fixing they PM the poster with their concerns and either ask them if they would consider changing the post themselves or inform them that a change is going to be made and why. I still remember the awkwardness when I changed a thread title and thread starter thought I might have changed some of the first post's content (back when the 'edited by' message popped up).

Also, something I have done of late is insert "moderator notes" - usually where someone has stuck up a URL without any context, to explain what it is and how it is relevant to the discussion

Again, I think it'd be better to ask the person who posted the URL to edit their own post in a case like this.

As for topic moves... again, it's not too much work to PM someone and ask if they'd mind their topic changing forum or why they chose a specific forum for it in the first place. For example, the Barbelith Reviews thread does strictly belong in Policy, but there were reasons I plumped for Music originally - my main focus was on music reviews, i felt it could inject some life into Music (it's been strangely quiet recently), I wanted to know how people thought the idea might be expanded on or incorporated within the forum... I'd also considered putting it in Conversation as the basic Reviews formula could be used for each forum on the site. Not many members seem to travel into Policy, and Conversation could have provided a wider range of opinions. I'm not fussed in the slightest about the move, but it's probably just good practice to inform or ask people when this is being considered, especially when we're dealing with an influx of new members and are already a bunch of Nazis in some eyes.

As for deleting 'irrelevant' posts: is there not a danger that the Head Shop might be becoming a little too dry?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:25 / 27.08.02
Nesh: If someone did it to one of my posts, I'd be furious...

God, yes. Someone actually did try to do that to me - I got the moderator task thingy, so I turned it down and launched a peeved PM at them and we worked it out.

Much better to propose changes via PM and then okay them when they are requested by the poster.

Haus: the thread was about reactions to a plan to ban smoking in the workplace in New York City, and you began your contribution by saying that you did not want to talk about a plan to ban smoking in the workplace, be it in New York City or not

I read the thread and I responded to what was there. Just because something's in the title doesn't mean you can't challenge the assumptions on which it's based, for God's sake!

Yes, it was a departure from the intended focus of the topic, but I challenge the primacy of that focus, which is a legitimate response, and my argument is relevant to the discussion. More, I think the discussion as formulated conceals the real issues, and therefore needs very much to be challenged. This blurring of the lines is vital, and yes, it can be annoying, but squashing it is simply not the way forward. Deal with it, don't moan about how you were having a nice chat about the ethics of cheating in a mole-stuffing championship before some bastard came along and started discussing cruelty to animals in general.

Which, incidentally, any discussion of whether people are "marginalising" your opinions in a specific Switchboard thread by declaring them off-topic might also be accused of in a thread about the role of the Head Shop

If you hadn't decided to use me as an 'awful example', it wouldn't have happened. You must have known that if I saw that, it would annoy me very much, and the chances were that I would respond.

Discussions here interweave. It's inevitable. The attempt to tie them to fora and titles will burn off bits we should be exploring, as the divisions between subjects in universities can leave promising research without a home. The malleability of barbelith and its readiness to cross-pollenate is its great strength, and we should look to foster miscegenation, not clarify definitions.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:52 / 27.08.02
I have a problem with this.

I simply don't think it's good news at all for moderators to be telling posters how to interpret questions. In fact, I think it's a disaster.
 
 
bio k9
09:59 / 27.08.02
Speaking of staying on topic and using PMs...why dont you two take it outside?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:06 / 27.08.02
Well, this is an interesting example. Nick believes that his changing of the focus of the discussion, from the current affairs story in which Mayor Bloomberg plans to ban smoking in the worplace in NYC to why smoking is in general a bad thing is congruent with the topic. I would suggest that "is smoking a bad thing?" is a connected but separate discussion, and that there is a difference in any case between the advantages and disadvantages of prohibitions on smoking in the workplace (socially, financially, in terms of civil rights on the parts of both smoker and non-smokers, etc), and so that challenging the assumptions on which the thread "No Smoking NYC" is based would involve challenging that Mayor Bloomberg had any plans to ban smoking in workplaces in New York City, not whether smoking was a good (or bad) thing in general. Thus, If I were a Switchboard mod, I might have started a new thread, quoting one of Nick's posts and inviting discussion from there. I see nothing "annoying" in this. Mistaken, possibly, but not annoying.


Back ontopic, I think that the night of the long Knodges may have left some mods twitchy, and other mods reluctant to use their powers at all except for teeny-tiny things. Note that this is based on nothing but my own mixed feelings, hence "might". And I think that the Head Shop may be a particularly challenging bone to chew on, as the posts by SMAtthew and Tom demonstrate - it is simultaneously often apparently much easier to contribute than the Switchboard, the Laboratory or the Magick (although in many cases that's probably an eidolon - some Head Shop threads start out by specifying authors, and many Switchboard or Laboratory threads invite comment without any in-depth knowledge being required), while at the same time it is not *meant* to be an annex of the Conversation, any more than it should be "a place where the clever stuff gets booted"; it has a specific remit - "philosophy and cultural studies". Thus, "health and gender" could certainly fit into it, although in a very different way to the same thread in the laboratory. "What class are you?" belongs (I would suggest uncontentiously) in the Conversation, and I think that being surprised when it turns out that the Conversation can support intelligent discussions is a bit off.

Hoom.

I think there are probably two questions here.

1) Is the Head Shop a ghetto? If so, why? What shoudl be done about it?

and

2) How best should people moderate the Head Shop? Is this any different to moderating the other forums? (Which may well spin off into "what should moderators do?" in another Policy thread)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:07 / 27.08.02
Bio K9:

Oh, my God. Because the discussion is becoming relevant, is why. Is the Head Shop a ghetto? If so, in my opinion, it may be because of the current trend towards the stratification of topics and fora. Did you bother to read my longer post, or did you just assume I was going to rant pointlessly?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:25 / 27.08.02
WRT the example Nick gives here, I think that's an astoundingly bad piece of moderation. I don't see what was stopping the moderator responsible (moderators, actually, seeing as it'd take two) making that suggestion in a post of their own. Moderating like that is extremely iffy for at least two reasons - firstly, it reads like a vioce from on high chastising someone for not being able to frame their own questions properly, and secondly, it's anonymous and looks almost cowardly.

As for the impact of Knodge in all this, I'd suggest that the exact opposite of your theory is more accurate, Tann, and that certain mods are going way over the top.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:11 / 27.08.02
Mmmm. At the risk of referring endlessly upwards to a hierarchical authority - Tom, how do you and Cal envisage moderators functioning harmoniously with the board architecture?

The example above was me. The thinking was that the question as it stood was potentially a side-road way offtopic, as it was asking about an ethical position and effectively a whole new discussion (as there is nothing intrinsically "manly" or otherwise about hitting or not hitting women), but had its own merits as a funnel into the question of how maleness and manliness were constructed. Since there had been an interpost, it seemed logical to keep that suggestion and the post together. On reflection, it might have been wiser to have PMed glassonion and asked him to suggest an alteration (although that adds an extra level of complexity) or to have commented in-thread, but I tend to try to keep moderator hat and ficsuit hat as separate as possible. Also curious as to why it is assumed that the authority of the moderator note is unquestionable, although accountability is a good question and possibly crucial, on reflection.

Hooom. What we have here, I think, are two questions. The role of the Head Shop and the role of moderators in general - beyond correcting HTML'n' such stuff, Tom has also talked about a duty to start threads, move threads along, keep threads ontopic, all of which seem perfectly desirable. So our question becomes one of what is and is not a desirable way to do it...same thread or new one? If wea re assuming that the Head Shop is unlike other areas (and I think there is a case for this), perhaps both...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:35 / 27.08.02
In terms of the difference between the Head Shop and other fora- of COURSE it's different. Otherwise there'd be no point. (And even when people, myself included, lump, say, the Creation all together... that's bollocks too. As far as I can tell, each forum on Barbelith has its own etiquette... not something that seems to have been planned, but something that evolved. As communities have an unsettling tendency to do.

And Haus... yes, I get the point of the "moderator note" thing... I just think someone else's post is the wrong place to criticise/re-topic (if there's such a word) that post itself. Otherwise we lay ourselves open to charges of Stalinist revisionism... especially seeing as how you COULD (but didn't- I'm speaking hypothetically here) have just changed it slightly, hoping the poster wouldn't be vain enough to re-read their own post...

Though I also see your point about the separation between moderator hats and poster hats... maybe if each forum had a "Moderator" suit which, again, needed the agreement of two or more before it could post? Or would that be too clumsy and labourious?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:48 / 27.08.02
Hmmm...not sure.

I think I am possibly in authoritarian fascist panties Knodgeshock mode myself, so am going to restrict myself to correcting HTML and voting on other people's suggestions for a while. But we should probably keep dialoguing how the HEad Shop *should* operate...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:50 / 27.08.02
I do quite like the idea of a "moderator suit", although needing approval might make it a bit non-responsive...maybe allow any moderator to modify or delete posts made by it with a single vote? Hours of fun...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:23 / 27.08.02
I strongly suspect this is going to be a question of how Barbelith operates, and that it will tie into issues of the construction of the board. But the Head Shop microcosm will probably serve to raise the issues well enough.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:38 / 27.08.02
I'll just get this out first - editing or modifying posts, never never never, except with the express permission of the original poster. Delete, okay. Edit, never. Any justification on the basis of keeping the thread on topic etc is outweighed by the basic principle "thou shalt not fuck about with what someone else has written". I didn't ask for an editor, thanks.

Aaaaaanyway. I think one of the problems with the Head Shop is that, outside of a few specific examples, it is too fuzzy a forum, in definition and practice. "Philosophy and cultural studies"... well, okay, that's a definition, but given the people that come here any topic about anything is likely to turn into philosophy at some point. The fuzziness of what could be defined as "cultural studies" is pretty obvious too.

For that reason I tend to treat the Head Shop as a place where I'd put a thread that I think deserves rigour but I couldn't find any better place for, and I don't think that's quite what it should be. I find the other forums have a narrower focus which is more useful when classifying what I want to talk about, and easier for interested readers to find. A nicer way to put that (rather than "dustbin forum") could be "the Head Shop should be for discussions so multidisciplinary that they can no longer be accurately placed in another forum". Generalised "threads about society" would mostly come in here by their nature.

I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect way to split everything out, but "analysis" is not a good category. It's all analysis. I'd prefer to see the HS defined more as "society and culture".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:30 / 27.08.02
Any justification on the basis of keeping the thread on topic etc is outweighed by the basic principle "thou shalt not fuck about with what someone else has written". I didn't ask for an editor, thanks.

Ah, but if you take a look at the Terms and Conditions, you *did*.

What? You didn't read them? Ouch. Not looking forward to *your* 35th birthday...

I'm assuming that editing titles and providing topic abstracts is still OK. Is anyone contesting that?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:32 / 27.08.02
Come on. You know that's entirely different.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:45 / 27.08.02
I always ask people to make their own changes, rather than making them myself. Even to abstracts and so on. I did step in forcefully with Andrew's posts in the Creation, because they were a blight - but I took soundings from other posters, mods, and from Tom, before doing so. Saves wear and tear on my brain and keeps me on this side of the wire.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:50 / 27.08.02
Haus - first things first - I think good intentions aside this was essentially a mistake in moderation because it places words ambiguously within another person's comments. As such you'd have to be extremely clear that this was an intervention from outside - and I don't think you were clear enough. My personal opinion would be that the appropriate thing there is to post a new message as yourself further down the thread suggesting the problems you had with the way it was developing. Certainly you should feel free under those circumstances to place your moderator hat on - albeit askance.

When we look at moderator behaviour in general, I think that the very fact we're having this debate and lines are being drawn here and there is an extremely positive thing. The fact that we don't have many of these 'innappropriate moderation' questions probably means that it's certainly not got excessively invasive so far. Which is a tremendous relief.

The Head Shop is a special case and I think a case that I get particularly energised about. The whole revolution is the core of this place as far as I'm concerned and as such I'll do anything to try and keep it alive. The fact is that the Laboratory has been dying for a while and the Head Shop has been shaky. I'm hoping that a shot in the arm to the Lab will help both of them get back on their feet...
 
 
Tom Coates
13:54 / 27.08.02
Morally fridge is right. Editing other people's posts for changes in content is as close to verboten as I think it can be. Changing it for language, spelling, formatting etc. is a matter of individual conscience, but I think is essentially fine. Editing for really big pictures is encouraged. Titles can be changed to make them clearer, but when they have been dramatically changed, you should find some way of referencing the old title. Abstracts should be changed whenever they're shit... Deleting messages on the grounds that they are empty and pointless is a matter of conscience. Deleting messages because of individual disagreement is not. Deleting empty or ludicrously offensively useless posts is fine...
 
 
Ganesh
14:07 / 27.08.02
Thanks, people: that's clarified most of my specific moderator queries. In my original example, I PMed the moderator in question and we resolved the situation perfectly amicably 'behind the scenes'; I just felt it would be a useful example to throw into a more general discussion of the role of the Head Shop.

I'm still slightly concerned that some very able posters seem to shy away from posting in the Head Shop - and I know for a fact that some of you find it 'intimidating'. Anyone fancy giving feedback here?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:50 / 27.08.02
I've largely stopped posting in the Head Shop because I don't really have the head for pure theory stuff. I need something to hang my brain on in the touchable world. I'm not good at making an argument watertight, much better at coming up with possibilities. So I end up in Switchboard more and more.
 
 
Ganesh
15:55 / 27.08.02
Well, that's just the thing: I don't see the Head Shop as somewhere that's reserved for "pure theory"; I view it more as somewhere to generalise from one's experiences and perhaps use 'theory' as a tool to dissect them, toss them around and (hopefully) reach some sort of conclusion. It shouldn't be purely anecdotal, for sure, but anecdotal experiences are a useful starting point.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:59 / 27.08.02
From where I'm standing the one thing the entire board needs at the moment is an agreed focus - a sense of what it's about - that can be summarised in twenty or thirty words that capture the SPIRIT and the rough MISSION of the place. Soundbite. Whatever. Everything would be clearer if we had something to hang it off...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:13 / 27.08.02
'Nesh - I agree. That means, however, that threads have to have a degree of leaway before they get moved. We have to trust people to post in the Head Shop when they want something to have a Head Shop response. And we have to leave stuff there for a while before booting it to other fora because it isn't an appropriate topic.

Tom - yeah, I agree with that, too. I'm just not real confident about it.
 
 
Ganesh
16:18 / 27.08.02
Tom: That's off topic; if you don't mind, I'd like to delete it. :P

(Seriously, though, I agree with you generally but am a bit shit at these 'spirit of Barbelith' summary things...)
 
 
grant
19:27 / 27.08.02
Soundbite:
Subcultural discussion, collective analysis, and ontological assimilation.


What can be done to spur on discussion in Laboratory?
Much of Lab's remit seems to be marveling over new discoveries - not much of a debate, there.
 
 
cusm
20:15 / 27.08.02
Soundbyte: a place to be Invisible
 
  

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