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Satanism

 
  

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Seth
10:33 / 25.08.02
Any Satanists on Barbelith? Are you now, or have you ever been? And if so, how would you describe Satanism? The term seems to describe a number of different philosophies/practises.

Of course, anyone can contribute their thoughts. I just can't remember there being a thread on the subject previously.
 
 
paw
13:20 / 25.08.02
barbeliths too bad for the satanists
 
 
ghadis
13:26 / 25.08.02
Seems to me that there are two main types of Satanists...First are the Death Metal/Goth/teenage nihilistic rebellian types who get the tabloids in a twist when the odd murder happens such as the recent German couple and that whole Finnish Death Metal thing...Then there are the 'proper' Satanists such as The Church of Satan and the Temple of Set whose philosophies are essentially Nietzian and are very similer to Objectivism...I've read some Anton LeVey and Dr Hyatt and agree with a lot of their ideas on freedom and individualism but always get really pissed off with them pretty quickly...so its not for me...too cold and uncaring and egotistical...
 
 
ghadis
13:28 / 25.08.02
'barbeliths too bad for the satanists '

DAMM RIGHT!!
 
 
ghadis
13:30 / 25.08.02
And goetees only look any good on fat men
 
 
Papess
13:38 / 25.08.02
I used to be when I was younger, alot younger! I think it was out of adolescent rebellion that I was attracted to it. I was sick of having the Judeo-Christian value system imposed upon me.

I still value the "Dark" path, (for lack of a better, more PC term) but now realise that Heaven & Hell are not the only agencies in the universe!--to borrow an idea from Tom McFarlane's Spawn. I will go wherever my mind takes me and I am certainly hoping that I am not bound by these two places, as my only choices!

I still talk to Satan on occassion and he said he wants to retire. "After all," he said, "God did, why not the Dark Princes?"

LOL

~May
 
 
Papess
14:03 / 25.08.02
Ghadis wrote:
"Seems to me that there are two main types of Satanists...First are the Death Metal/Goth/teenage nihilistic rebellian ...Then there are the 'proper' Satanists such as The Church of Satan and the Temple of Set whose philosophies are essentially Nietzian and are very similer to Objectivism..."

Very good point. I think only now, with more study under my belt, can I appreciate the true ring of Satanic beliefs even though I do not wish to practice it solely. There are some juicy bits though that I think are worth a looksee. I like the fact that I do not have to deny my Shadow nature. I always felt so much more balanced because of what I learned in Satanism. The Dark only enhances the light and vice-versa

~May
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
15:23 / 25.08.02
May wrote: Heaven & Hell are not the only agencies in the universe!--to borrow an idea from Tom McFarlane's Spawn.

...you borrowed an idea from Spawn.

You borrowed an idea from Spawn?

We truly live in a regurgitative society.

BTW, "true" Satanists do not actually believe, per se, in an entity named Satan, but rather value the role that literary character plays in the Jungian collective unconscious. I guess in the local parlance Satan would be a godform, though one you'd still want to be extra special careful before monkeying around with. Now Satanists will dress and act the part, simply because others' credence in the figure of Satan adds "power" to Satanists' psychological surety, but most of the mainstream Churches of Satan are explicit about being down on behavior like sacrifice, opting instead for a psychological placebo.

It doesn't surprise me that "Satan" tells you he wants to retire, May; he's been overused by all parties involved.
 
 
Papess
20:47 / 25.08.02
Vladmir wrote:
You borrowed an idea from Spawn?

We truly live in a regurgitative society.


Hehe, we sure do. What I really should have said was I was paraphrasing from Tom McFarlane's Spawn. It is almost an exact quote, however. It is just a phrase that stuck with me from when I read it, that put this idea in a succinct and contemporary manner.

How embarrassing! I certainly didn't mean to imply that Tom McFarlane came up with this idea all by his lonesome! OOPS

~May
 
 
Papess
20:59 / 25.08.02
Vladimir wrote:
It doesn't surprise me that "Satan" tells you he wants to retire, May; he's been overused by all parties involved.

One more for the vomitorium! We have all heard these rumours before!

~May
 
 
SMS
01:42 / 26.08.02
BTW, "true" Satanists do not actually believe, per se, in an entity named Satan, but rather value the role that literary character plays in the Jungian collective unconscious

Darn. I was hoping they all believed they were going to hell, but they decided to hold onto their ethics anyway, because, punishment or not, it's the right thing to do. Oh well.
 
 
the Fool
03:43 / 26.08.02
And goetees only look any good on fat men

I'd like to dispute that claim here and now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:52 / 26.08.02
The eyeliner-and-upside-down-cross brigade tend, by and large, to be young'uns who are reacting against something (conventional religion, society at large, what-have you). Some of them are basically OK kids with goodish rebillious instincts and absolutely no fucking imagination whatever; some of them are viciously nasty pieces of work who've found a hook to hang their weekend cat-skinning on.

As for the other flavour, "proper" Satanists: pffft. Ayne Rand in a black polo-neck. Once you look past the cliches, it's all pretty standart right-wing libertarianism. I want that, and I'm strong enough to take it from you, therefore it is mine. I want to do what I want, when I want, to whoever I want, and screw everyone else.

It's worth noting here that just about every "proper" Satanist I've ever met has links to or sympathies with far-Right groups or ideologies. Not exactly my kind of people.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
07:55 / 26.08.02
I know a chaos magician who's been a member of the Temple of Set for awhile (yes, he has a goatee). He hates them because they're "modern as opposed to postmodern" and are too cold, calculating, rigid, overintellectual, anti-drug, etc.; they hate him and other chaos magicians because they join the "TOS" (as it's referred to off-hand), steal all their "secrets," and then leave!

In my opinion, anything that is referred to openly by the same initials that Star Trek: The Original Series is referred to by Trekkers can't be good.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
08:01 / 26.08.02
Oh, I'd also like to add that every satanist I've met has immediately reminded me of Dan Clowes caricatures. Whenever something makes me think of Dan Clowes I get the fuck away from it as soon as possible.

Like the 18-year-old kid I saw at this year's San Diego con wearing black slacks, a red silk shirt, slicked back blond hair, a glassy look in his eyes, a huge Baphomet necklace... and a fucking HANDLEBAR MUSTACHE, curling into little spirals at the end like a fucking cartoon, all waxed....

AIIEEE!! All Will to Power but not a shred of fashion sense! A handlebar mustache on an eighteen-year-old kid! BY THE POWER OF SATAN, BAPHOMET, PAN, LUCIPHAGE, BEELZEBUB... I CURSE HIM TO GET A FUCKING GIRLFRIEND!
 
 
Professor Silly
06:34 / 28.08.02
People often think of me as a Satanist, probably due to mostly black clothing and the Crowley books....

I did meet one Satanist (he went by the name "Prick") that left an impression--we had an interesting discussion about Korzybski and semantics. He told me he didn't like most other Satanists; that most took pretentious names ("I am Vincent Daarkfang") and didn't get the basic ideas of the religion. I've noticed similiar conditions in most groups--a few that seem on the ball, and the masses that follow blindly.

So I gave the tenants of Satanism a glance--the first one read "Do everything to excess." While that jibed a bit with the SubGenius in me, I think it better to follow Buddah's path of moderation.

So long as they don't hurt me or mine we'll have no troubles--touch my cat though and I will end their lives.
 
 
Little Mother
09:03 / 28.08.02
Hmmm, bit blank on the satanism front.
Have kinda given it a wide berth, at least partly due to some of the people it seems to attract. Are there any books/site which provide a sort of basic idiots guide?
 
 
Naked Flame
14:40 / 28.08.02
I think on balance Satan gets a bad rap from most- have done ever since I read Paradise Lost. There's lots to ponder about his role and nature- first and biggest question is whether you percieve hir as trans-pantheic. Is he a force of nature, perhaps an opposite force to whatever creative principle animates deific figures percieved as 'good', or simply the product of a particular subset of religions. Then there's the whole question of satan's will- is he part of a divine plan or a free agent, etc, etc. Is he a 'devil' or a 'fallen angel?' And so on.

But just as the Christian 'God' doesn't equate to mainstream Christianity, neither does 'satan' equate to Satanism. As a path, doesn't really seem to have any answers beyond self-indulgence. And I'm not sure that- at least according to my interpretation of 'satan' that any of hir followers could ever call themselves 'satanists' anyway.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:15 / 28.08.02
Churchofsatan.org has an amusing Anton LaVey fact vs. fiction page. And the fact that Sammy Davis Jr was a member cracks me up to no end for some reason. The silly hedonist.

(on my Shetland pony high horse)Personally my encounters with self-proclaimed Satanists have always left me with a bad taste in my mouth. It's basically Social Darwinism wrapped up in D & D meanderings, usually centering in how much the Christian Church did them wrong. *sigh* And unfortunately it's true.. some Ayn Rand text is never far from reach.
 
 
Saturnine
04:20 / 30.03.04
Oh Christ. Now I want to put my hand up and say "Hi Everyone, I'm A Satanist"...

NB - I'm blonde, I wear pink, I don't listen to death metal. My favorite food is sushi and I love little fluffy animals.

And yes, I am a Satanist.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
05:50 / 30.03.04
cool. Now tell us something about satanism/how you are a satanist. I wish to learn.
 
 
agvvv
07:36 / 30.03.04
I used to hang around the600club a couple of years ago, I met some very interesting people.. I dont know how things are now though..
 
 
pythagore
07:56 / 30.03.04
On a bunch of swedish communities there has been a strange development when it comes to satanism. At first most people were into the idea that "satanists don't really believe in Satan" and that the "true satanists" were the ones that followed LaVey's "The Satanic Bible".

Then something happened. More and more people who were opposed to LaVeyanism, including some devil-worshippers (actually, very intelligent devil-worshippers) and intellectual satanic discordians (like myself) started to oppose this picture of satanists. Now, anyone walking into these forums, trying to explain for everyone else what a "true satanist" believes gets a bashing. Quite fun.

But yes, we got fourteen year old goths too, of course. Hell, I think we even got 35 year old goths there. And, when I think about it - I guess I got a goatee. Oh, fuck it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:02 / 30.03.04
Oh, I'd also like to add that every satanist I've met has immediately reminded me of Dan Clowes caricatures. Whenever something makes me think of Dan Clowes I get the fuck away from it as soon as possible.

...to the barbequotes with that one I think.

And the fact that Sammy Davis Jr was a member cracks me up to no end for some reason. The silly hedonist.

That's fantastic! The IOT had William Burroughs, but the Church of Satan had Sammy Davis! How cool is that! It's almost enough to make me want to join. Almost.

I want to do what I want, when I want, to whoever I want, and screw everyone else.

Sounds more like the Church of Stone Cold Steve Austin to me.
 
 
macrophage
16:33 / 30.03.04
I haven't met any satanists recently I've met more christians. I flirted with satanism when younger but more to do with headbanging and into black metal. Still who could have thought that some wacky christians would claim the image of YODA as similar to BAPHOMET??!!! The extremes of xtianity and satanism seem to feed each other in some sorta mad twisted s+m symbiotic relationship. So the next time you check out Star Wars all hail to the hidden god!!!! Do Chaotes seek to rise above this blatant binary duality??? Who's got the hardest egregore???? Alot of the occult does seem to show esoteric leanings to a gnosticized xtianity. I am reminded of a phrase that I heard once - "All The Illuminators are Liars" - I think this may stem from Umberto Eco - alot of the different bibles and grimoires and texts that matter to students may have been faked. FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT!!!
 
 
Z. deScathach
18:49 / 30.03.04
I think that Satanism at the time was rather a breath of fresh air, but it has gotten rather stale. Problem being that it sets itself in opposition to another set of values, and thus locks itself. Love can be weak sometimes, and leave one rather vulnerable, but it is damn useful, and I would dare say, necessary. Without it, the world becomes a damn scary place, because as humans, we are social for a reason. We don't have teeth or claws, (well, unless you strap some on, but I'm not sure that's legal....). Yes, I understand that LaVey did bring up blessings in The Satanists Bible, but to be honest, that isn't what I see when I communicate with Satanists. I do see the viewpoint, "I got mine, you get yours, if you can't get your's, then bye bye. And not only that, screw with me and I will use my magick to kill you....(why always go for the atom bomb, anyway?) Are there caring Satanists? Yes there are. Are there Satanists that don't death-curse at the drop of a hat. Yes, there are. Truthfully, I think that LaVey had some good points, particularly in his criticism of the idea that magick cannot or should not be used for defense. He also had some good points in that those that come crashing into your world for the gleeful purpose of causing you pain are not worthy of your consideration. And I like his viewpoint that stupidity is a cardinal sin. I do not however, agree with his viewpoint that only the strong are worthy of survival. I have known too many powerful people that due to one disability or another, couldn't hack it in the workaday world. They still have much to give, and they sometimes do. Not everything useful has a dollar value. The problem is that this is not what I'm seeing. What I see is a lot of over-reaction and insecurity. Then again, I've known some very thoughtful Satanists, so that isn't always the case. I suppose that chaos magick is drawing many of the same persons, the dark and scary crowd. I call them "boo-people", because they are always coming up to you and metaphorically going BOO!

BTW: To the above avowed Satanist, please offer your views. You will keep us honest.
 
 
Char Aina
19:31 / 30.03.04
the Church of Satan had Sammy Davis!

and marc almond.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
19:39 / 30.03.04
And the Temple of Set had Derek Nimmo-lookalike Michael Aquino.
 
 
diz
20:17 / 30.03.04
Sounds more like the Church of Stone Cold Steve Austin to me.

WHAT?

WHAT?

WHAT?

(austin 3:16 says i just whupped your ass)
 
 
pythagore
21:40 / 30.03.04
To the above avowed Satanist, please offer your views. You will keep us honest.

As I wrote in my old blog, a long time ago:

I often get dragged into discussions with satanists on the web (no, let me rephrase that - I often throw myself into discussions with satanists on the web). One would think that they would have a very open mind, that their affiliation with the satanic current have made them aware that truth is subjective (note to self: stop using the word is again - out, demon, out!), but that is rarely the case. If you want a discussion based on that premise you should just stick to chaos magicians. And most of them are just as stuck inside their own point of view as everyone else.

and

Friends of mine have asked me, several times, why I call myself a satanist (of course, I also style myself as a discordian, thelemite, chaote and a part-time-hobby-setite). First of all, I prefer not to be put in the same category as the satanists I mentioned above. I am not a LaVeyan, neither am I a traditional satanist. My view of the Prince of Darkness is my own (roughly based upon the theories of LaVey and Aquino) and purely my own - as I believe it should be. For me, Satan is a symbol of revolution (against everything - including myself) and evolution - thus making it a very personal concept. Fighting about what is real satanism or not is NOT evolution (according to me - out, demon!). It's stagnation. And pushing down your view of the matter into the throats of others is counter-productive and (once again, according to me) not very satanic.

And I guess my final point would be

The Dark Lord is just another weapon for bringing down barriers and reality paradigms.

(ooops, I just realised that you wasn't talking about me. Never mind. My answer still stands. )
 
 
LDones
23:57 / 30.03.04
From what I understand of it, Michael Aquino's Temple of Set was formed due to intense disagreement with LaVey's behavior - partuclarly on the existence of 'Satan' - and a lot of the fallout in the COS after LaVey's death revolved around his seeming see-sawing on the subject (and all that business with selling 'memberships' into the 'Church'). It was a Cult of Celebrity for LaVey, and this became increasingly obvious to people around him after awhile.

'Saints and Sinners', by Lawrence Wright, has a very interesting chapter that touches on the twilight days of LaVey's life - all the silly mythology he invented falling away, the fact that he was just scraping by coming to the fore. I'd recommend it as a read to anyone interested in the subject.

'LaVeyan' Satanism is a really interesting part of American culture to me, though. I spent a good few years of my youth 'studying' it, doing my best to understand its basic tenets, etc., because the simplicity of it was very positive and pro-human-development.

The gist, to me, was always 'Indulge yourself, there's nothing wrong with it. Stop feeling guilty about anything. Do whatever you're curious about. Be careful that you're only doing it because you're interested and not because you feel a compulsion - If you can't control it you're off the track and have to stop it. Do whatever you want, just don't hurt anybody unless they've hurt you.' A sort of 'Ethical Hedonism', I guess.

It's got an enormously obvious symbol on the front of itself that people with intentions that have nothing to do with personal growth will latch onto, of course, but it has a lot of value beyond that. I never got the 'If you want something and you're strong enough, Take It' vibe that May Tricks describes above - it was all very positive and sensitive to human development when got past the charming (if overbearing) vaudeville of it all - the negative takes on it all seemed inferred by folks who were overcompensating for personal deficiencies.


For me, and many others I've met now that I've crossed into an OlderWiser mode, LaVeyan Satanism was a really positive step in the change from childhood to adulthood. For kids (certainly on the West Coast of the US where I'm from)who feel extremely 'alien' and not terribly okay with their place in the world or their 'worthiness' it can help teach a sense of self-respect and Faith In One's Own Abilities that's hard-coming at that age. It really helped for me, and served as an introduction into larger, more developed metaphor systems/magical systems - a 'Self-Value and Magick 101' of sorts.

LaVey's peculiar aphorisms were always charming to me. I've met a number of very warm, very charming Satanists who were level-headed and loved life, and were willing to discuss these things without engaging in adolescent theatrics. These were real Satanists to me, and I always enjoyed their company. That having been said, the general proliferation of silly views and self-obsessed, self-important bravado I got from a greater percentage of proffessed 'Satanists' kept my involvement in it personal, and I eventually developed away from it. But everyone I knew at that time read the books along with me (casually Christian or otherwise) and took something rewarding from the experience. I have a soft spot in my heart for LaVey because of it, and always will.

This feels kinda monologue-y - my apologies. Just wanted to get my thoughts into the mix.
 
 
Liger Null
01:12 / 31.03.04
Still who could have thought that some wacky christians would claim the image of YODA as similar to BAPHOMET??!!

Are you sure that wasnt BOBA FETT? (bad tiger, bad, bad)

Like the 18-year-old kid I saw at this year's San Diego con wearing black slacks, a red silk shirt, slicked back blond hair, a glassy look in his eyes, a huge Baphomet necklace... and a fucking HANDLEBAR MUSTACHE, curling into little spirals at the end like a fucking cartoon, all waxed....

I give the boy 5 points for facial-hair originality. Was the mustache blond?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
05:44 / 31.03.04
Interesting article here from a guy who writes about being initiated into a British Satanic group "The Brotherhood of Lucifer" which seems to predate the American groups. Has anyone else come across these people?
 
 
macrophage
08:09 / 31.03.04
I've read alot of the Anton La Vey books - puts on quite a show. His "Invisible War" article/rant was well worth its salt. Looks good with the snake wrapped around him haha. From this viewpoint I understand satanism as an Aesthetical philosophy. I am always reminded of PT Barnum - "There is a sucker born every minute." La Vey worked this creed quite well. True people should work out their darksides and all that, and assimilate them. What do you reckon Bobba Fett would look like if he had a goatee???
 
 
Z. deScathach
16:20 / 31.03.04
pythagore: If you want a discussion based on that premise you should just stick to chaos magicians. And most of them are just as stuck inside their own point of view as everyone else.

Agreed. To some extent, I do feel a little uncomfortable even discussing what I "think" about someone else's tradition. Because that is basically what it is. I am making observations about persons in that tradition and extrapolating, (a logical mistake). That chaos magick is a belief paradigm is undeniable. The statement "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" is after all a belief. It serves best when it is used as a tool to break up stale belief systems that are being held internally. It is certainly a truth that if I get sucked out of a jet plane at cruising altitude with no parachute, my body will no longer function when it hits the ground. Perhaps the real question should be "What trends are manifesting in the group of persons calling themselves Satanists", rather than "What is Satanism?"
 
  

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