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The Kryptonite Ceiling

 
  

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Ethan Hawke
11:54 / 22.08.02
Pardons if this has been discussed before...

I filched this link (Women in Refrigerators)(and the topic title) from this month's Harper's Magazine. The list pretty much speaks for itself.

While I'm not an avid comics reader by any stretch, I did spend my formative years buried under a pile of milk-smelling newsprint, and I do think there have been great works of art done in the medium.

That being said, is there something about comics that makes them more misogynistic than other media? Are comics, on balance, more degrading in their treatment of women than TV, films, books, etc? Is the only way for a female character in comics to be compelling to be victimized in someway?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:59 / 22.08.02
Here's the obvious anti- argument, by Mark Millar (various creators have been polled on the site about the list)-

As regards the female characters thing, I'm afraid I think it's giving male creators a bum deal. The list does read pretty shocking at first until you think of everything the male heroes have gone through, too, in terms of deaths/mutilations/etc. Granted, the female stuff has more of a sexual violence theme and this is something people should probably watch out for, but rape is a rare thing in comics and is seldom done in an exploitative way.


....seldom done in an exploitative way?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:59 / 22.08.02
well there's always Halo Jones and........
 
 
The Natural Way
12:21 / 22.08.02
Yeah. Look...most mainstream comix writers/readers are nerds: anti-social, de-sexed feedback loop. World without end.

It's as simple as that.
 
 
sleazenation
12:33 / 22.08.02
seldom done in an exploitative way... except when it is by mark millar?

or was him writing in the abusive relationships, replete as they were with mindcontrol and rape for his female characters simply and attempt to be even handed after he'd had the commando and apollo anally raped in a previous storylines?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:35 / 22.08.02
At least, instead of killing them off, Morrison just wrote out Boy, Ragged Robin, Jolly Roger (whoops...)
 
 
The Natural Way
12:52 / 22.08.02
Yeah. Right. At least he didn't rape them.

I don't think what happened to Boy, Robin and Roger had anything to do with fucking sexism. Yeah, Boy was encoded with the "earthy black woman" stereotype and Robin was a MobGrant's sexbunny, but I still feel both of them were written out of the book for bloody good reasons. Reasons that had nothing to do with Grant feeling he was incapable of writing female characters. God, there are other alternatives Barbelith.....
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:08 / 22.08.02
At least he didn't rape them.

Now I have the disturbing image of a Flesh n' blood Morrison trying to rape a comic book Ragged Robin lodged in my head. Thanks.
 
 
Justin Brief
13:14 / 22.08.02
Wonder Woman. Lois Lane. Liberty Belle. Supergirl. Invisible Girl. Elastic Girl. Frikkin' She-Hulk...

There have always been powerful female characters in comics - well, if we forget that Wonder Woman was initially an S&M fantasy written by the future inventor of the lie detector. If anything, a certain suffrage is evident in comics far in excess of that in evidence socially at the times they were published. Something to do with the highly moral aspect (Super-Original's 'basic decency'...) of authors who were writing for the kiddy-winkles and the educationally disadvantaged, perhaps?

The very-real problem of admitting that you are a comics fan to your lady friends, let alone actually getting a girlfriend to READ one, without coming across as a borderline sociopath, is probably more to do with that latter fact. That, to this day, comics carry the stigma of being fiction for children or the immature.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:31 / 22.08.02
Main point:

Woman is the nigger of the world.

Overarching condition:

As above

So below
 
 
The Natural Way
13:45 / 22.08.02
And I've never had a girlfriend (sexual, lovey-dovey or just-good-friends) do the "hey! you must be a retard!" thing. Are you sure yr not just paranoid or hanging around w/ some pretty closeminded people? Not saying you ARE, just asking......
 
 
Justin Brief
14:18 / 22.08.02
All of my girlfriends have learned to live, reluctantly, with the fact that I spend vital shopping hours hanging around in the stinkfests that are Forbidden Planet, Gosh and Mega City. They've still failed to quite 'get' the essential wonders that are The Invisibles, Doom Patrol, Madman and Jack Kirby, despite the odd drunken thrusting of a comic under their noses while begging 'read it... just read it... it's quite good, really...'

Have you heard what your female friends say about you when you're not there, Runce?
 
 
The Natural Way
15:15 / 22.08.02
God, I'm as close w/ my "female friends" as I am w/ my male - they're just "friends" and I know them well enough to have a good idea of the stuff they say "behind my back". And, yeah, they might occassionaly poke fun, but that's all it is: fun. Most of them have read the odd comic. Some of them have read a lot. In the final analysis, they're all intelligent enough to realise a comic has as much potential worth as any other media (esp that Harry Potter book they're reading). I don't like this conversation really - don't wanna divide my mates along gender lines and go on about how "the ladies are like this...the blokes are like that..."

To be honest, I've as many male friends that don't do the comix fanboy thing as I have female.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:48 / 22.08.02
I think there's something very telling about the fact that Justin Case chooses to support his argument that "There have always been powerful female characters in comics" with a list comprised almost entirely of skantily-clad fantasy figures with big "bazoomas", which presumably relies on a definition of 'powerful' that translates roughly as "able to punch through walls" or "able to project invisible force shields", or... you get the idea.

See also the title of this thread - in other words I think that female charactes are more than likely to get a very bad deal in most superhero comics, but that's a genre, not the medium, and the distinction between the two is what we should be screaming from the rooftops.
 
 
Persephone
16:45 / 22.08.02
It's really interesting to read all the responses. Here's my favorite so far, by Rachel Pollak:

Writers ...write much more from their unconsciouses than people realize. You think of something that seems really cool, and deep, and makes you want to rush to your keyboard, and you don't stop to look at just what it's saying, or where it might come from in yourself. And where it comes from in many men is that men are real and women are vehicles for men's needs. One of those needs is to feel strong emotions such as grief, anger, pain, maturity. There are any number of movies and books in which a weak man becomes a hero, or faces up to life, because a woman has been raped or murdered or has committed suicide. Did the writer realize he was (once more) victimizing women? Probably not. Probably he thought he was dealing with a man finding his maturity through pain.

Spiderman the movie went to my heart in this way... I saw the ending as

*should I put a spoiler break here?*









a sort of ultra geek fantasy --what could be better than getting the gorgeous girl next door who never paid you any sexual attention in high school? Humiliatingly *rejecting* the girl because you have superhero responsibilities now. The little smile that Toby Maguire had on his face as he walked away, to the sound of MJ crying, froze me. But this was someone's idea of Peter Parker "finding his maturity."

But it also made me think, whom am I treating like the object wherein I find my maturity? And how's that going to come out in my art, and how ugly is it going to look?

I think I'm saying about the same thing as yawn, actually, in a lot more words. This applies to more than comics.
 
 
glassonion
16:53 / 22.08.02
girlz girlz girlz. my girlfriend loves the hulk at the moment cos it reminds her of the tv show, but all my female friends are wise enough to say they prefer the kirby originals. comes from hanging out with folk like me and the runce, who clearly aren't the type to dig around in trash out of either infantilism or misogyny, but for readily-found pearls. some of my female friends divert their geek-energy to make-up, haircuts and clothes, but no-one thinks less of them for it. there's a pissload of women haters who are hailed as geniuses in comics, which is fine too because to some they are masters of their art and their audiences are allowed to make up their own minds about women anyway. self-hate bleeds also from these writers' pens. with regard to the third question of the topic abstract, no, unless you argue that all characters in fiction are made compelling by their victimisation under something.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:14 / 22.08.02
Fly: given that the Women in Refrigerators site does focus exclusively on the treatment of women in superhero comics, I think the similar focus in the discussion in this thread is entirely excusable and indeeed appropriate.

Maybe the topic abstract should be altered to reflect that narrower purview, though.
 
 
glassonion
17:16 / 22.08.02
good points pollack and persephone both. on one to me equally valid level is the idea that the worst thing that a male writer can think of is something bad happening to a woman he loves. what is more suspect i think is the 'hero's instant recourse to retribution as the best way to solve things. but for superheroes action! is their rhetoric, that's a convention of the medium. the end of spidey is also upsetting because pp's actions towards mj are to the detriment of his own satisfaction too. he could just tell her and everything would be fine. hs walking away to me signified great immaturity, and when she realises his true identity, right at the end, all the power in the relationship shifts back to her. their relationship will truly begin later, when pp finally realises that she isn't just a victim. guys are stupid. they need reminding of these things.

and AND I'M NOT BEING ENTIRELY SERIOUS HERE what's wrong with the victimisation of women anyway? surely it provides many opportunities for getting men to do what you want?
 
 
some guy
17:36 / 22.08.02
I find it interesting how many posts have been made vs. how many specific modern superhero comics have been examined. I think in a lot of ways our old stereotypes of superhero comics no longer apply - it's certainly difficult to find very many examples of straight-out "Amazing Man rescues damsel in distress" type books these days.

And to push the mirror back the other way for a moment - surely its ludicrous to criticize superhero comics for their idealized depiction of the female form when they are also obsessed with the idealized depiction of the male form?

I don't think the treatment of female characters in comics as a whole is any more or less mysogynistic than other media - indeed I'd be hard-pressed to find blatant anti-female undertones in most modern comics (and I would argue that this is not the same as an unconscious embrace of traditional gender roles). I also think we have a tendency to view female characters with our "victimization" radar on, when it appears that both genders get the poorer end of the stick from time to time (ie: the male beating and body count is much higher - what does that mean?).

Thoughts?
 
 
houdini
20:44 / 22.08.02
Well I might start by pointing out that Mark "In Good Taste" Millar devoted half an issue of The Ultimates to Hank Pym beating a (naked) Jan Van Dyne, including blasting her with fly spray and then smothering her with ants in a manner reminiscent of those weird manga tentacle-sex fantasies. This is the same man who felt his Freedom of Speech had been compromised when DC censored his scenes of David Beckham enjoying necrophilia with the recently exhumed Jenny Sparks. Yes, yes, Beckham was meant to be The Baddie but the whole reason Millar's Authority work was so stinky was that he moved the focus from Ellis's "grandeur with consequences" to a much more Marshall Law stylee sadism rush. There's a place for works like these, but it's not on my bookshelf, sorry.

And before people rush to tell me Millar also "raped" Apollo and another Baddie it all basically happened off-camera and pretty implicately. Plus, they were gay anyway, so that was Okay. How many straight men have you ever seen raped in a comic?

In my opinion, the writers who pointed out to Gail that male characters suffer too were half right. I think most comics characters are made to suffer at some point. The difference is in the manner of the suffering. Apollo notwithstanding, it tends to be female characters who are given sexual (or reproductive) suffering, while male characters just tend to get the snot beat out of them. As (I think) Stephen Grant pointed out on Gail's site, for males, superhero fights are sex surrogates anyhow. But that seems to be as close as the males ever get.

All this may not be as Evil as one tends to think, though. I think to a lot of male writers rape is on the agenda for female characters because it's a "real-life" problem that females face. Typically, although male rape does happen it's very rarely discussed in the media, either in documentary or dramatic form, so I don't think its absence from comics is necessarily so surprising.

I think the comments on what makes women "powerful" were quite interesting. Chris Claremont clearly loved his women on the X-Men. If you look at the levels of super-powers bequeathed to Storm, Polaris, Jean/Phoenix, Psylocke, Rogue or any of the female New Mutants, as compared to the much narrower powers available to Cyclops, Colossus, (Wolvie's an exception, but even he's got his limits), Nightcrawler, Beast or the boy New Mutants you definitely see the disparity. But at the same time, it was _always_ the women who were getting trapped in their bikinis against an entire mystic wall of fleshy arms that groped them up and so on. [New Mutants Giant-Sized #1] Not to mention the very large portion of X-Chicks who decided to Go Evil and start wearing not very much leather in lieu of their regular clothing. So in another sense the women ended up being much more "powerless" than the men. But then it was often the women who won the fights and did all the hard work anyway. Phoenix saved the universe. Storm beat Mojo and Loki, as well as the Shadow King. Rogue defeated Master Mold and Nimrod. Jean defeated the Hellfire Club. Illyana stopped Inferno. Which major X-Villains did Colossus ever defeat?

As those of you subjecting this post to intense literary scrutiny may have noticed, I don't really have anything as concrete as a point. I guess all I have are questions: Would comics really be enhanced by showing more male rape? Would they be enhanced by fewer scenes of EvilDoers dropping cigar ash in Swift's mouth? Is that a metaphor or something? Does Morrisson's writing "I am proud to be Simon's Bizarre Human Camera.... Would you like me to clinch the deal with uninhibited oral sex?" make him a Misogynist? How much do comics really condition our worldview anyway?

And is 'Y: The Last Man' really as bad as I think it is?
 
 
some guy
01:09 / 23.08.02
And before people rush to tell me Millar also "raped" Apollo and another Baddie it all basically happened off-camera and pretty implicately. Plus, they were gay anyway, so that was Okay. How many straight men have you ever seen raped in a comic?

But how many women have been raped in comics, really? I ask because outside that Authority storyline, I can't really think of any. I think you are spot on in suggesting that rape in comics echoes depiction of rape in other media (ie: that male rape is rarely a subject of comment). I'm not going to defend Millar (largely because I don't think he's any good), but neither do I think his shock treatment of women is representative of modern comics.

In my opinion, the writers who pointed out to Gail that male characters suffer too were half right. I think most comics characters are made to suffer at some point. The difference is in the manner of the suffering. Apollo notwithstanding, it tends to be female characters who are given sexual (or reproductive) suffering, while male characters just tend to get the snot beat out of them.

But the topic abstract is specifically misogyny, and whether comics in specific are misogynistic. I find it difficult to accept acknowledgements of sexuality or sexual situations in fiction as inherently misogynistic, even in something as questionably handled as Millar's Authority or Ultimates. I think there's a tendency for that word to be thrown around by people opposed to any presentation of sexuality that doesn't turn them on (ie: if I like it it's erotica/if you like it it's porn). Are any of us in any doubt that the perpetrators of abuse in these books are not meant to be seen as Bad Guys, who will eventually get their come-uppance. I don't think many female characters in modern comics are given sexual suffering, if only because most publishers shy from that material. If we focus on reproductive suffering in metaphor, it A) doesn't necessarily follow that this is misogynistic, and B) makes a considerable amount of sense considering that men do not have wombs, with all the literary, spiritual and cultural baggage that entails.

But at the same time, it was _always_ the women who were getting trapped in their bikinis against an entire mystic wall of fleshy arms that groped them up and so on.

But I would have to disagree that a sexualized sequence such as this is necessarily misogynistic. It seems we're getting into very sketchy territory, where deliberate fantasy sequences such as the one you describe (and fiction is, if nothing else, outlet for fantasy) are automatically given negative valuation if the object of sensualization is a woman. I don't think slash fiction, much of which deals with power differentials and/or fantasy/bondage sequences is necessarily anti-male. It would be one thing if a pattern was established, but in the case of Claremont I'm not sure you can do this.

Claremont was an equal-opportunity 'offender' in this regard - witness the overt sexualization of Nightcrawler under his pen or the numerous fantasy illustrations of a bare-chested Colossus ripping tree stumps from the ground with his bare hands. The male X-Men seemed to wind up in loincloths as often as the women found themselves in bikinis. For every wall of arms moment, there's a half-naked Magneto bound in the Savage Land, or a loinclothed Wolverine tied to a cross, or a Havok wandering the beach in a tiny Speedo.

As the X-Men under Claremont was, among other things, an obvious and fairly overt homosexual metaphor, I don't think this is entirely surprising. But as you admit, the female characters were all more powerful than the male characters, both in terms of physical power but also mental ability. It's very difficult to make a misogynist reading of Claremont's X-Men stick for these reasons.

Would comics really be enhanced by showing more male rape?

If it's going to be treated on the level of Millar's spousal abuse plot or Winnick's gay bashing, then no.

But more to the point, what mainstream comics would Barbelithers consider misogynist, and why?
 
 
some guy
01:12 / 23.08.02
Actually, on the subject of rape in comics, I've just remembered the original Silk Spectre in Watchmen. There's a heavy undercurrent of suggestion that she loved the Comedian and did not view the experience as a wholly negative one. Would we label the book a misogynist work?
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:37 / 23.08.02
Well, I don't think Alan Moore is the greatest example to pick for your case. But possibly the problem is that you're thinking in terms of 'a misogynistic work', as if misogyny was only a problem where that was all the work was. Whereas others are talking about misogynistic dynamics/moments within a work, which is not the same thing...
 
 
bio k9
03:31 / 23.08.02
Wonder Woman. Lois Lane. Liberty Belle. Supergirl. Invisible Girl. Elastic Girl. Frikkin' She-Hulk.

Flyboy already took this list to task but I think he skipped over a couple of important things. WonderWoman is an Amazon Princess (or something) but she travels around in blue star covered panties and red kneehigh high-heeled boots. Lois Lane is Supermans wife and his damsel in distress. Supergirl and SheHulk are female versions of Superman and the Incredible Hulk, their signifigance is solely based on that of their male counterparts. Invisible Girl (who, unlike several others in this list, has managed to graduate to Invisible WOMAN) is another damsel in distress. But at least she gets to play the role of mother to her husband, his best friend, and her little brother...oh.

I could go on but theres really no point. Nevermind being stuffed in a fridge, look at the lives of these "powerful female characters". Thats misogyny.
 
 
some guy
10:52 / 23.08.02
Well, I don't think Alan Moore is the greatest example to pick for your case. But possibly the problem is that you're thinking in terms of 'a misogynistic work', as if misogyny was only a problem where that was all the work was. Whereas others are talking about misogynistic dynamics/moments within a work, which is not the same thing...

...and which is obviously the case with Watchmen, as I pointed out. I don't think anyone's done a decent job of illustrating "misogynist dynamics/moments" in specific modern works - especially the mainstream superhero works we love to trash but too often seem unable to cite specifically. It's not enough to point out the spousal abuse in Ultimates and say, "That's a misogynist moment." Why is it a misogynist moment? Even if the nudity is included for shock value, is it then necessarily exploitative and anti-women? That's a tough argument to make, and misogyny is a very strong word. Can violence toward women in fiction ever not be misogynist? Does it vary depending on the personal politics of the reader?

WonderWoman is an Amazon Princess (or something) but she travels around in blue star covered panties and red kneehigh high-heeled boots. Lois Lane is Supermans wife and his damsel in distress. Supergirl and SheHulk are female versions of Superman and the Incredible Hulk, their signifigance is solely based on that of their male counterparts. Invisible Girl (who, unlike several others in this list, has managed to graduate to Invisible WOMAN) is another damsel in distres

I think this is incredibly simplistic and fails to take into account the modern appearances of these characters. Part of the problem is that many of us appear to be 'post-superhero' and probably haven't actually read deeply into the types of comics we're used to slating for several years. I disagree that any of these characters are defined by their male counterparts in the modern era, or that they function as damsels in distress.

We're also on extremely dangerous ground if we're going to start labeling heterosexual (or perhaps lesbian) fantasy aspects of these characters misogynist. Just because Wonder Woman wears a bathing suit it doesn't necessarily follow that she's a misogynist character. There's an entire fantasy aspect to comics that we ignore at the peril of weakening our other observations.
 
 
Justin Brief
11:16 / 23.08.02
"WonderWoman is an Amazon Princess (or something) but she travels around in blue star covered panties and red kneehigh high-heeled boots."

And Superman flies around in a leotard showing off his muscles with his pants on the outside. Your point is?


"Lois Lane is Supermans wife and his damsel in distress."

IS, currently, his wife, but enjoyed 60 odd-years of being his far more successful superior in the workplace, and has always been a feisty one (check out the Fleischer brothers cartoons of the 40s). In the 60s, would often come to Superman's aid, rather than vice versa.


"Supergirl and SheHulk are female versions of Superman and the Incredible Hulk, their signifigance is solely based on that of their male counterparts."

What, the fact that they are on an equal footing with their male counterparts? We're complaining about that?

"Invisible Girl (who, unlike several others in this list, has managed to graduate to Invisible WOMAN) is another damsel in distress. But at least she gets to play the role of mother to her husband, his best friend, and her little brother...oh. "

Every member of the Fantastic Four was a damsel in distress; look at the number of times they have to rescue the Thing, Human Torch, Reed, etc etc; Jack and Stan made IG the most powerful member of the FF, what with her force fields.

"I could go on but theres really no point. Nevermind being stuffed in a fridge, look at the lives of these "powerful female characters". Thats misogyny"

Yup, no point, you make no sense. Let's look at the lives of powerful male characters such as the bandaged (emasculated) Neg-Man, the haunted Batman, the puerile Plastic Man and the Bondage-obsessed Mr. Miracle. Is that misanthropy?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:31 / 23.08.02
Does someone really need to spell out the whole "unequal balance of power between men and women" thing again? C'mon Justin...think...

And whilst I do agree with Lawrence that "misogyny" is perhaps too strong a word, loads of depictions of females in comics are clearly the product of hugely a puerile (and decidedly teenage) approach to female sexuality.

I'm not sure about all that Invisible Woman-as-damsel-in-distress thing, Bio - you don't actually read FF comics, do you? But that's just an aside - I appreciate that the point still stands.
 
 
bio k9
11:49 / 23.08.02
Jesus Christ, Timberlake.

Ignore the cheesecake pinups Adam Hughes does for W.W. every month...

Ignore the fact that WonderWoman is wearing boots, panties and a corset while Superman exposes only his face and hands...

Ignore the fact that Lois was more successful at the Daily Planet because Clark Kent had to, with a wink and a nod, play dumb to hide his secret identity...

Ignore the fact that slapping breasts on a male character and calling her She-Whatever doesnt put her on equal ground...

Ignore the fact the Sue Storm is the only member of the F.F. with a purely defensive power (no those little force field blasts dont count)...

And please, ignore my posts.


Runce: I dunno, how many times has she been kidnapped by Namor only to kind of, of sort, love him and understand him as only she can?
 
 
bio k9
12:08 / 23.08.02
Adam Hughes' Wonder Woman covers.
 
 
Justin Brief
13:15 / 23.08.02
Jimmy Olsen must have been playing pretty dumb as well, to remain a cub reporter all those years.

The reason Jack Kirby gave as to why he thought superheroes - that's male superheroes, like Kid Eternity, or Toro, or Bucky (who I remember being rescued a lot) as well as female ones, like Supergirl, or Batwoman, or Hawkwoman - were dressed in tight fitting spandex was because it gaves artists a free range to draw directly from anatomy... or, shock! horror! THE NUDE. Are we allowed to mention people in THE NUDE, or is that sexualist?

If we're going to compromise here, rather than proudly display our geek-fu, can I suggest that superhero comics have betrayed both misogyny and misanthropy in equal measures, but probably a great deal less than the societies of which they were a product. They've also displayed imagination, idealism, and a strong sense of morality, probably more so than many other forms of fiction.
 
 
Justin Brief
13:17 / 23.08.02
"Does someone really need to spell out the whole "unequal balance of power between men and women" thing again? C'mon Justin...think... "

I would refer He Whos Lady Friends Snigger at Him Openly to my initial post; my point is, there have always been strong female characters in superhero comics, redressing that balance far more so than in mainstream media - say TV - compare Uhura to Kirk.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:53 / 23.08.02
That was sooo cheap. And, again, for the hard of hearing, they're not my "female friends" (as though there are two different camps), they're just my FRIENDS. God, stop it....yr making me cringe.

And I wasn't talking about the balance of power in comics - I was talking about the. real. world. where the male fictive-body can afford to take a bit of a kicking in a way the female can't. Men run it, Justin, who gives a fuck if Aquaman takes a slap every now and then? The "Look at her foxy-box in her swimsuit!" thing is still thriving and it IS offensive and exploitative and fucking embarrasing and childish and GOD, it just happens, it's a shit thing and why are we even fucking arguing about it?

And fuck what Kirby says - this is the 0's. The mass-produced homogebody's out of date.

Right: run away...........
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:07 / 23.08.02
look, I've got my serious hat on, so you must believe I'm not being cheeky, fascetious or dumb (at least not intentionally) so, in response to runce's claim I'd like to ask (hey, perhaps this is another thread ; I dunno):

Are you sure it's men that run the world?

It sure looks that way but lets think about this:

most males in the world have stronger connections to their mothers than their fathers. A lot of the time the father is not even present. So, all these men, who run the world at various levels etc - aren't they just doing the bidding of the programming installed by their mothers?

ergo

mums rool da woild?
 
 
The Natural Way
14:14 / 23.08.02
That's a bit like the "behind every great man, there's a great woman" idea. The point is: maybe - but why are they always shut up in the fucking background? Could go on, but this thread's in danger of becoming a defense of feminist cultural theory... Take it to the headshop, guys!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:16 / 23.08.02
Heh. If you're going to play that game, the obvious retaliation is that most men have their mother's love and are aware of the fact. What they want and strive for is their father's respect and it's that desire that drives them.
 
  

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