BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

What Kind Of A World Do Magick Users Live In?

  
 
Foust is SO authentic
21:27 / 21.08.02
I don't know anything about "magick" that I haven't learned in my hours lurking here, and I've got some questions.

When you use divination, where do you believe the information you aquire is coming from?

When you use shamanism to go on a spirit journey, what exactly is happening? Is it supposed to be another physical universe that you are glimpsing, or an entirely spiritual one?

How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconcious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin (Johnny O, I'm looking your way)?
 
 
Stone Mirror
22:05 / 21.08.02
I live in a universe where these aren't particularly meaningful questions.

In a divination, the state (for example) of the sticks or whatever that I use to generate (say) an I Ching hexagram is a reflection of the state of the universe (including my wish to perform a divination) at that moment: it's all synchronicity.

I don't see a strong distinction to be made between a "physical" universe and a "spiritual" one.

When you have a "bright idea", where do you believe the information you acquire is coming from?

When a hypnotist causes a subject to believe that she has been touched by a piece of hot metal rather than a pencil, and a blister is raised on her arm as a result, is the blister "physical" or "spiritual"?
 
 
cusm
22:55 / 21.08.02
How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconcious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin?

You forgot to add, "by random chance" to that list too, to cover syncronicities.

The answer: all of them. However, that doesn't make it any less real or any less magickal. The paradox is intended. Magick does have to play by the rules, afterall.
 
 
ciarconn
00:03 / 22.08.02
When you use divination, where do you believe the information you aquire is coming from?

I just know. And I can distinguish if it is true or a projection of my subconscious

When you use shamanism to go on a spirit journey, what exactly is happening? Is it supposed to be another physical universe that you are glimpsing, or an entirely spiritual one?

What's the difference? There is a correspondence between the mental/spiritual and the physical(s)

How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconcious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin (Johnny O, I'm looking your way)?

I do not do anyh drugs. Tried once or twice, and they did not work.
And the first part of the question is harder to answer. When the coincidences go beyond the standard possibilities, I would suppose it is real
 
 
the Fool
00:43 / 22.08.02
I'm making it up as I go along.

Don't do divination. Too much fear of seeing bad things. I'd prefer not to know when it comes to bad things. I worry too much as it is. It will just make me waste time worrying, thinking the future is set in stone.
 
 
Rev. Wright
01:29 / 22.08.02
 
 
grant
03:00 / 22.08.02
Well, if it quacks like an astral messenger and has webbed feet like an astral messenger, I don't care if it's a subconsciously-emanated chicken or not: I'm going to treat it like a duck.

Once you go deep enough into the subconscious, that divide between "out there" and "in here" gets exploded, largely because the "here" sure isn't where you started from, and really resembles the "there" you're trying to get to.

So I suppose I live in a universe that I'm a part of, connected in ways that aren't immediately obvious to myself all the time. Part of this universe, also, includes the fact that "I" is a plural, that "I" is a shifting net of cooperating things (Jung called them complexes, a term now commonly used to mean neuroses) who refer to themselves as the same thing as a matter of convenience and shared physical space.

I live in the middle of an ongoing, ever-evolving set of interpretations of data; a divination is simply another way to look at patterns in the data before me. If it's feeling windy and I smell faint woodsmoke, I expect colder weather within a couple days. If I'm noticing The Empress in juxtaposition with The Lovers, I'm anticipating something feminine and fertile (even if it's only a feminine and fertile mood, which in turn sets off a series of feminine and fertile events).
 
 
Rev. Wright
08:46 / 22.08.02
 
 
Secularius
11:11 / 22.08.02
I have never actually tried magick but I've had a gnosis experience. I had streams of information flowing through my head and I felt that everything suddenly made sense; life, the universe and everything. And I started writing down the ideas in my head. Where did they come from? I think they came from the unconscious. I think every human being is an Einstein waiting to unfold. We have all the necessary information inscribed in our dna, we just have to look within to find it. It's the collective unconscious Jung talked about.
 
 
Jack Sprat
15:28 / 22.08.02
When you use divination, where do you believe the information you acquire is coming from?

The information I get exists everywhere and in everything. If I'm lucky and careful, I can choose which of the information to pay attention to. Unfortunately, sometimes I get information I'd rather not have or at times I'd rather not get it. And at other times, I overlook information I need. Divination as such is my attempt to get the information when and how it is most convenient for me.

When you use shamanism to go on a spirit journey, what exactly is happening? Is it supposed to be another physical universe that you are glimpsing, or an entirely spiritual one?

For me, shamanistic journeying is like going through a door into other rooms in the house. The reason I usually do not visit those rooms is that I usually cannot see the door.

The animal cousins who live in those rooms are not bound by the same rules of physical and psychic conduct that I obey in the usually accessible rooms. They also have a rude sense of humor and sometimes like to play mean tricks on me, which is why I don't invite them to live in my rooms.

How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconscious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin (Johnny O, I'm looking your way)?

Robitussin makes me vomit, an experience I strive to avoid.

My experience of divination and shamanism is that it uses gross motor functions of my subconscious. The complex, mysterious machinations come in when I spend a morning constructing a cover letter to send with my resume to yet another Lucky Potential Employer who -- I know full well -- will not even do me the simple courtesy of acknowledging receipt.
 
 
Chaos is relative
17:54 / 22.08.02
"When you use divination, where do you believe the information you acquire is coming from?"

I believe that most of the information lies in how I interpret the "response" given by the Tarot or I Ching. I live in a universe where all I am aware of are my perceptions of an illusory outside world. My universe does not exist without me. We, contradicting the previous statement, are all creating our own specific reality. I suspect that subconscious is the factor from which we recieve divination.

Subconscious seems to be the power through which magick manifests itself. It has been taught by some schools that subconscious is the outside world as a part of ones self, learn more at bota.org,. If programmed toward a certain end, it will provide the desired result. It is the malleable, yet metaphysical "force" of Star Wars. It recognizes thought patterns in the same way the brain recognizes repetition and forms synapses. The subconscious then creates circumstances in the outer world which correspond to the repeating thought patterns of the inner world. This is why it is so important to gain control of the mind.
Aleister Crowley defines magick as creating change in accordance with Will. This leaves the possibilities open to just about any interpretation. If studied scientifically it becomes less superstition and hocus pocus and more a way through which we gain knowledge of our own power. The term "Scientific Illumination" is no idle one. Thanks for the post.
 
 
cusm
19:29 / 22.08.02
The intersting thing about divination is the reliance on a randomization of the elements you are drawing from, be it cards, runes, yarrow sticks, or coconuts. This links back to a quantum physics idea, that when the given state is unknown and unobserved, the state is at all possible states in a probability wave that is collapsed into a choice when the element is observed. So by that, a card from a shuffled deck can be and is all cards in that deck until you look at it. That puts the choice on how the probability field is collapsed into something other than your hand. That rather leaves a wide door open for any "external" intelligence to affect the outcome, and thus communicate to the diviner, even if that external element is the Universe itself speaking through the language of chaos and syncronicity.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
20:18 / 22.08.02
When you use divination, where do you believe the information you aquire is coming from?

The random distribution of pieces of card board. No, really. I'm into Cartomancy.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
23:27 / 22.08.02
How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconscious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin (Johnny O, I'm looking your way)?

The question is, why you feel that this explaination is more valid than the magical one? Why do you feel that having an explaination that fits the scientific rationalist model means that the magical model is no longer useful (or just more fun)?

For me, the magical viewpoint is one that realises that it doesn't matter what words you use to "explain" phenomena, but is more concerned with results. Oh, and also keeping experiences fresh and immediate, without sterilising them with reductive terminology.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
02:00 / 23.08.02
My experience of divination and shamanism is that it uses gross motor functions of my subconscious. The complex, mysterious machinations come in when I spend a morning constructing a cover letter to send with my resume to yet another Lucky Potential Employer who -- I know full well -- will not even do me the simple courtesy of acknowledging receipt.

Heh, you too? I must send out no less than 25 cover letters a week, and it's a rare one that will even send me a postcard or email just to jerk me around that they give half a tug. I wonder if there's some sort of sigil we could unleash to compel for the etiquette to keep one posted on one's chances.

Oh, I guess I'll weigh in on this topic, though I'm grossly inexperienced in applied magick. All I can say is that it's all a matter of information. Science tells us that all matter is, in reality, a slowly vibrating, densely arranged form of energy; thus, everything is energy. But energy is simultaneously a form of information; one just has to discover the Rosetta Stone that allows you to view that information in a way other than the narrow range of colors, shades, sounds, etc. that we're used to. Step One towards that end is to keep ever mindful that we ourselves are matter, thus are energy, thus are information, and being as such, it is only perception that distinguishes our information as being somehow apart from all the rest. We think that the criteria is that we only have evidence that we ourselves are cognizant, but in truth that is exactly why we can effect change on the world around us, because we are merely expressions of information in a sea thereof. (Remember the scene at the climax of The Matrix where Neo begins to see the world in the code of the matrix, and himself as part of that code.) Now mind you, I think it's a rare individual who can plug in to that perspective most of the time and make it work for hir and still maintain a presence in the "real" world.

Thus, divination is a way in which to look for the more prevalent conjunctions of information as they are reflected in the world of the maya, interpret based on experience, and act accordingly. Myself, my most successful method, other than walking and letting my mind wander and writing down observations that seem relevant, is to shop thrift stores and see what random elements present themselves to me, especially at prices I feel would be criminal to pass up. Usually those come through clearest in the forms of books, music, movies, other media, but sometimes also in clothes, appliances, kitsch, you name it. To others, it just seems like I'm shopping, and I am, but I'm also seeking and acknowledging that what I find has also found me, which is why I feel the thrift store environment is ideal. Your results may vary.
 
 
illmatic
07:15 / 23.08.02
Vladimer - love that thrift shop idea - that's fucking ace and bloody funny as well


"When you use divination, where do you believe the information you aquire is coming from?"

I don't have a fucking clue, and I don't think it's explainable either. There was an article about John Cage in The Guardian (brit newspaper) recently, where he talked about the scientific idea that one day, we're going to explain everything, as simply a colossal conceit. If the universe is chaotic and random and unknowable, divination systems somehow give you a chance to step in time with this,and change, instead of defending the same limited space all the time. The may sound like mystical nonsense - perhaps it is - the best way to answer your question is to do it yourself for six months and draw your own conclusions.
 
 
Little Mother
11:16 / 23.08.02
I live in the same universe as everyone else, other people may see thing I cant and vice versa though. (particularly when it comes to fnords....sorry)
seriously I also don't distinguish between the magikal and mudane, just get on with things.
On the divination front, I think its a combination of things, I rarely get told anything I didn't already know in my heart of hearts about a situation. Some of it comes from elsewhere partly I reckon form the gods I work with and partly from then sense of humor my cards seem to havedeveloped. They told me to expect aprieciation for my skills, our boss brought in chocolate, and I was expecting a new job! I tend to find anything you work with magikally a lot it gets its owwn personality, my tarot deck has an evil sense of humor and if it thinks I'm ignoring an issue beats me over the head with it. Not a deck to be used for commercial readings. But I'm wandering now, sorry but hope it's useful
 
 
Suffocate
05:09 / 25.08.02
As Vlad said, we live in a sea of information.

If you look at it from the general animal perspective (the four dimensional perspective), you start attributing things to ghosts, spirits, gods, etc.

If you look at things from a wider perspective, a quantum perspective, or just a completely lunatic perspective, you start attributing things to the fact that everything is connected and that it's possible to tap into the past/present/future/other entities/etc.

What kind of a world do I live in? A world that we still know less than 1% about, see less than 0.1% of, and where less than 0.05% care more than 0.005% about really making any sense of it.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
05:54 / 25.08.02
...and I think you're being liberal with all those estimates.
 
 
Seth
10:26 / 25.08.02
So, Foust: you've had a range of responses, from seemingly glib to potentially useful to a couple of pretty pictures that lead to a ton of information. Has any of this been helpful?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:35 / 25.08.02
I'll tell you like this, because I think it's the best way to describe the world I live in. Keep in mind that it's a metaphor, a description of a pattern rather than an example of the true pattern itself. Which may or may not be the same thing, now that I think about it. Anyway:

You know the basic principle behind binary code, correct? 1's and 0's, two values that have no intristic value by themselves, just when they are used next to each other. Using just these two values, programmers can design some incredibly complex systems and programs. Video games, for instance.

I know you've heard me speak on the dualistic nature of the universe, about how things like Up and Down or Good and Evil or Crest and Trough have no intrinsic value by themselves, only when they are next to each other. So think about this: what if someone made a computer program, an operating system, using values like Good and Evil, Up and Down, Wave and Particle, Male and Female and other dualistic values found in reality instead of just 1's and 0's? What would this program do? What would it look like? Would you be able to distinguish the operating system from what you call reality?

It helps to think of reality as a video game of sorts, built out of the operating system I just described, and that magick is essentially us hacking into the system and altering it with through our will. Or, if it helps, like we found a Nintendo Power with all the cheat codes.

How many of your experiences can be explained by complex functions of your subconcious or the consumption of large quantities of Robotussin?

mmmMMMMMmmmm...see, if you want to take that route, how do we know anything? All your preceptions of the outside world come through your five (or six, depending on your stance) senses, all of which have receptors located in your brain, which is hidden behind a big ass hunk o' bone. We all know how easily the five senses can be fooled, so how can we be sure that anything is really taking place?

You can go nuts pondering stuff like this, which is why I recommend Zen Buddhism. It helps keep everything in perspective, and as a result I've come to realize that the inside of my head is just as big as the outside, and that the two look so damn similar I have trouble telling the difference sometimes.

Hope that helps.
 
  
Add Your Reply