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Notting Hill Carnival : Violent or Fun?

 
 
suds
14:43 / 21.08.02

i have been invited to notting hill carnival this weekend, by friends who live in the area. i've never been before because i have been at every reading festival since 1994 and they usually are on at the same time.
i hear it's really cool. my friend once saw jay z and lil kim play under a bridge with tim westwood at notting hill carnvial.
however, a bunch of people told me that lots of people get mugged there and then my dad said there's no way i should stay out after dark.
is this crazy talk or is it true?
have any barbelithers been?



i don't know if this is the right place for this thread.
i've never started a thread before in conversation.
 
 
sleazenation
14:45 / 21.08.02
If you survived the reading festival you shouldn't have too much trouble at the carnival - there are plenty of police and even a designated childerens day set aside for families to enjoy the floats, music drssing up and general dancing in the streets wonder that is carnival.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:59 / 21.08.02
I've never had anything but fun there... yeah, every year they wheel out the shootings/muggings/whatever statistics... which are no higher than in any grouping of that many people.

And yeah, the last few times I've been it's been on the Sunday- the children's day. Not because of the fear of violence, but because the atmosphere's generally nicer and it's less crowded. And it helped me overcome my instinctive hatred of children...

BUT- if you have a problem with crowds, it could get pretty hectic. I generally overcome this by being trashed and oblivious.

Go for it. Find a float you like and have fun trying to keep up with it all day.

Carnival rocks.
 
 
lentil
15:09 / 21.08.02
Oh yeah. Carnival is great. The first time I went was a revelation. Every other time has been merely wonderful. Monday is slightly lairier, but the nearest to any serious trouble I've seen was a couple of years ago when large groups of lads were forming chains so that they could barge their way through the crowds surrounding sound systems. Don't have breakfast until you get there so you can take full advantage of patties and jerk chicken.

Stoatie's bang on the money with "trashed and oblivious". But trashed in a nice, mellow, "ooh look at that, hello, I feel funny" kinda way rather than "Oi! Let's fuckin have it!".
 
 
w1rebaby
15:10 / 21.08.02
Your major problem is probably going to be the heat; don't chug Red Stripe all day in the sun because you will end up face down in a gutter somewhere, and it won't be from being mugged.

I've been a few times and, while there are a few wannabe rude boys wandering around, I've never seen any more trouble than you'd expect from any large group of people in one place. Getting lost and crushed, now, that's different. Make sure you've got a map, and remember that it will take you ten times as long as you think to get anywhere around the floats, unless you can fly.
 
 
illmatic
15:21 / 21.08.02
Go. Just Go. Take skins, beer, camera, fags, weed, map and not too much money (£20 should see you right for a couple of patties and more beers) You'll fucking love it. I look forward to hearing abou how you feel after losing your carnival virginity.
I'm fucking excited myself and I've been loadsa times!!
 
 
Justin Brief
15:32 / 21.08.02
I've been twice, first time a diabolical nightmare, lost in huge crowds of unfriendly strangers, wading through beer cans and pattie-wrappers, getting progressively more scared, although that was probably due to youthful/ignorant white paranoia at being surrounded by black dudes in that London. In fact, saw no violence or intimidation, and intense scrutiny of aforementioned white paranoia followed. Second time better - could've been the Es, though.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:44 / 21.08.02
Why do I have a feeling Haus is gonna kick off a slapathon when ze sees this...?
 
 
Ganesh
16:54 / 21.08.02
I was guessing Flyboy, myself.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:50 / 21.08.02
Why slap? No-one's said anything stooooopid (yet). I mean, Carnival is huge and fun and scary... These are all true things. I reckon the big, big thing to be careful of is not to lose the people you're with, cos it's dead easy to do so and genuinely impossible to find them once you've done so...

I should be there on the Sunday this year - doubt it's worth trying to arrange a meet-up cos it's pretty crazy trying to meet anyone there... then again, it's do-able...

The only people I want to slap are the media, for the reasons Stoatie mentioned.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:55 / 21.08.02
I think it's doable if you meet somewhere else and then go. Inside, forget it. Maybe it's just me that loses all sense of direction, but it's too loud to co-ordinate on mobiles unless you go into alleys screaming "NO! NOT THAT SOUND SYSTEM! THE OTHER ONE! WITH THE GIRLS!"
 
 
Turk
19:05 / 21.08.02
Violent or fun. Introduce yourself to the human condition, violent is fun!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:36 / 21.08.02
Unless you're on the wrong end of the shiv, D.

Go Sat. or Sun., with a mate. You should be fine. Monday is Getting Stabbed For Your Bus Fare Day. Avoid Monday.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
08:58 / 22.08.02
I don't know personally, but I do wanna go.
 
 
illmatic
10:01 / 22.08.02
One classic carnival quote I remember:

"The Notting Hill Carnival has become a sleazy, sorid nightmare, synonomous with death"
Lynda Lee-Potter, The Daily Mail

I KNOW its the Daily Nazi but I still find myself amazed that this got published in a national newspaper.
 
 
illmatic
10:27 / 22.08.02
More thoughts:
I rember last year, following a quite a few small instances of crime the year previous, there were quite alot of police about. It bumped up the organisers policing bill a fair bit, but it was the only way it got to go ahead. There was quite a lot of police about last year, in big groups and I imagine they'll be doing the same thing this year, bumping up the overtime.
Two top sond system tips : Good Times (Norman Jay) & Sancho Panza.
Lets all pray for sunshine!
 
 
leviticus18_23
14:01 / 22.08.02
Don't go - there are no toilets! So if you drink too much beer there is nowhere to go for a slash! (Other than peoples' front gardens - and for some reason, people frown on you weeing in their gardens!).
 
 
illmatic
14:15 / 22.08.02
I've just remembered the "small incidences of crime" I mentioned below equaled 2 murders.
Erm... sorry.

Seriously, though, I've never encountered any trouble there. The trouble that there has been in the past seems a product of the sheer numbers (1.5 mil expected this weekend) rather than anything inherent in the Carnival itself.
It's kind of like Glastonbury in the street, with more black people and better music. Enjoy!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:08 / 22.08.02
Monday is Getting Stabbed For Your Bus Fare Day.

I really should learn not to speak too soon, shouldn't I?
 
 
Bill Posters
16:24 / 22.08.02
% I don't know, the thing about this so-called Glastonbury Festival is you get all these drugged-up whiteys in one place and well, let's face it, they're an excitable bunch aren't they? And they are after all a proud and warlike people. So it's little wonder that people end up getting stabbed. Mind you, their dancing's amazing - they've got this natural rhythm thing, it sure puts us to shame. %
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:26 / 22.08.02
Don't even get me started on goth clubs - terrifying places, full of devil worshippers who might slit your throat and drink your blood. For SATAN. I know because the Evening Standard told me.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:44 / 22.08.02
And as for the pikeys at the Carnival, well, they just ruin it for eveyone, year after year.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:10 / 22.08.02
You know the problem with Glastonbury? It's the Scots there.

And the Cornish.

Looks like Monday is going to be the only day I can go, since I'll be stuck in a small Oxfordshire village the rest of the weekend.
 
 
suds
19:44 / 22.08.02
thanks to everyone for the advice. i am really excited to go now, it sounds like fun! i actually hadn't heard about the violence from the media, but from some of my friends. i am going to go on sunday if it's not too rainy.
at first i was really upset about not going to reading festival again but now i am glad to be doing something different.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:43 / 26.08.02
I've never been to the Notting Hill Carnival, purely because I don't like huge crowds - I won't even go into Tesco's on a Saturday afternoon for the same reason, but I was interested to read this on the BBC's website just now:

"Hundreds" of revellers have got involved in trouble at the end of the Leeds music festival, according to police. Officers said people were injured and property was damaged as the festivalgoers went on the rampage. One of the main temporary toilet blocks at the Temple Newsam site was completely burnt to the ground and fires were started in at least one other. Skips were also set alight and electric cables which had been run overhead around the site were pulled down. Police in riot gear were on stand-by at the perimeter of the large site, but did not move in, and a police helicopter buzzed overhead. Police later released a statement saying an unspecified number of people were injured as a result of "mindless violence by hundreds of visitors"."

I'm off to the shops now, to check the front pages of the papers. Would it be cynical of me to expect not to see screaming headlines everywhere about this - bearing in mind the bands playing (Guns n Roses, Ash etc) I assume the crowd would've been predominantely white?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:28 / 26.08.02
Sounds right to me sfd. Anyway, I caught at least some of Carnival yesterday - turned up a bit late but had a good wander and managed to get some dancing in (I highly recommend the 'Gaz's Rocking Blues' soundsystem to anyone going today - great music, mostly reggae, and also a fantastic live show featuring dancers dressed, somewhat incongruously, as Roman centurions etc...). Great atmosphere, and I'm reminded again that Carnival really is like nowhere/nothing else... Hero of the day has to be the guy with the spiral braids who was going round pouring shots of whisky from a bottle and optic, free of charge. He did seem to be especially generous with the ladies... Shame I can't really afford to go back today, but then I am a bit knackered anyway... (Incidentally, counter to the 'avoid Monday' idea, I do know quite a few people who always prefer Monday because it does tend to be more rambunctious - everyone goes for it a bit more, is the idea, although I've always been recovering from the Sunday...)

Something I didn't know which may be of interest to people - Notting Hill Carnival was founded by the feminist, communist, black activist and journalist Claudia Jones, who arrived in London having been deported from the US for her political views/action. No wonder certain sections of the media don't like it.

(Did anyone see the outrageous tirade against Carnival by Victoria Coren in this week's Hot Tickets: pretty much "I've never been to Carnival, but here's what it's like...", and featured much mocking of 'trustafarians', which coming from Coren I can only assume means white people as posh as her but not as racist...)
 
 
suds
16:21 / 26.08.02
i just got back from carnival. apart from one incident i had a good time, ate sugar kane and sweet dumplings for the first time and danced in the street to hip-hop.
but i got crushed in a crowd at one point which was really really scary and then i realised i was surrounded by really tall boys who just put their hands up my skirt and were groping me and i was so scared i couldn't scream. but after i got out i calmed down and chilled at my friends house.
so, i think that the carnival can be violent but it's more fun than i ever thought it would be. so many people were nice to me. i got given free stuff, and so many people were friendly and smiley.
i'm really upset that one incident could have ruined it for me.
i hope all the other barbe-ers had a good time.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:58 / 27.08.02
Bah! I missed it! And I've just spent the night putting together the Met's press pack, so have been bombarded with newspaper reports about how cool it was this year!

Damn my inability to get my shit together.
 
 
illmatic
07:00 / 27.08.02
Sorry to hear about that incident suds. It's fucking shite that some macho twats are have got to inflict shit on other people to impress their mates. They are all lonely virgins and will die hideous loveless deaths.
Glad you enjoyed the rest of it anyway - I had a fucking amazing time, rolled on down to "Good Times" (only 20m walk from Kensal Green tube)and danced like a loon. 2000 people rocking away, screaming our little heads off and a cheeky blast of Stardust's "Music sound better with you" (is that who it's by?) at 7.15. Rocking! (Incidentially, the crowd round there seems a bit more "grown up" so less chance of moody incidents.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:32 / 27.08.02
Meant to add- suds, that sucks; I guess there're wankers everywhere. Don't let the fuckers spoil it for you.

See yas all down there next year! Honest.
 
 
Bill Posters
12:47 / 27.08.02
Sorry Suds, that sounds very scary shit indeed.
 
 
Ariadne
12:53 / 27.08.02
God, you poor thing, suds, that sounds terrifying. I'm glad you're okay. I think that would put me off crowds for life.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:55 / 27.08.02
Gah, sorry to hear about that suds. But I'm glad it didn't spoil things for you! Next year I suggest we have a Barbelith soundstage with an extremely militant policy about assholes in the crowd...
 
 
grant
15:20 / 28.08.02
Nature

This weekend, almost a million people will pour into London's Notting Hill district for its annual carnival, Europe's largest street party. The authorities will treat them like ants in the hope of making their experience more pleasant.

Researchers have adapted computer models of insect swarms to work out the carnival parade route that is most likely to alleviate the crowding that can mar the event.

In the past, the parade has taken a circular route. This traps people in a small area and intensifies the crush. Two years ago, the Greater London Authority asked geographer Michael Batty of University College London and his colleagues to explore six alternative routes.

Last year, the team monitored the entry points into the carnival area. They combined this with information from transport authorities, first-aid providers and aerial police photos to work out how many people were going where.

The researchers then created a virtual Notting Hill. About 15,000 computerized pedestrians roamed simulated streets to find the quickest routes and prime attractions. People followed each other to entertainment hotspots, but were repelled by dense crowds.

This allowed the team to identify the potential crush spots and to predict the effects of different parade routes, blocked streets or closed underground stations.

The Notting Hill model predicted that an L-shaped parade route would reduce crowding most effectively. This foundered on the carnival organizers' desire to keep the route as circular as possible, and the wish of some local councils to keep the parade out of their area.

The compromise route is U-shaped - an interim solution, says Lee Jasper, a senior policy advisor to the Mayor of London. "We're taking an evolutionary approach," he says, to reconciling political and public safety concerns.

"The key thing is that we've now got several objective standards by which to make decisions, whereas in the past we've just had common sense and experience," says Jasper.

Mass movement

This type of simulation has been used to explain ants' behaviour, whereby many individuals following simple rules can produce complex and orderly transport networks without any outside control. "It's characteristic of how insects are attracted to food," says Batty.

Treating carnival-goers as individuals might work well for people heading into Notting Hill, comments computer scientist Jon Kerridge of Napier University in Edinburgh UK. But such simulations might not reflect the crush of the carnival, where freedom of movement is limited.

"People in highly congested situations behave like a fluid - they move as one," says Kerridge, who studies pedestrian movement. Often, for example, groups hold hands to stay in touch. Simulating individuals' movement might miss the effects of these behaviours on crowding, he says.

"Our model doesn't show the dynamics of crushing on a fine scale," admits Jake Desyllas of Intelligent Space, a London-based consultancy firm that collaborated in the project. "But it shows the key factors that influence crowds on an urban scale." The research team will be moving among the crowds at this year's carnival to collect information to refine their simulation.


© Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2002



 
  
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