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Confucianism

 
 
Perfect Tommy
01:29 / 21.08.02
Corrupt and incompetent government was hardly a new development in China, and the Master himself had devoted many parts of the Analects to advising his followers in how they should comport themselves while working in the service of corrupt lords. "A superior man indeed is Chu Po-yu! When good government prevails in his state, he is to be found in office. When bad government prevails, he can roll his principles up and keep them in his breast." One of the great virtures of Confucianism was its suppleness. Western political thought tended to be rather brittle; as soon as the state became corrupt, everything ceased to make sense. Confucianism always retained its equilibrium, like a cork that could float as well in spring water or raw sewage. --Judge Fang, The Diamond Age

I just finished the above book for the second time, and I didn't really have anything new to talk about, until I started reading this thread on (among other things) the complicated morality of the West attempting to remove Saddan Hussein from power. The right(?) thing to do for all the wrong reasons? Ends vs. means, greater of two evils, and so forth.

What little, biased information on Confucianism I had read had led me to believe it could be summed up as "Do what you're told", and I paid no mind to it. But The Diamond Age's depiction of Confucianism as a supple philosophy that can function even in a corrupt state intrigues me, seeing as I suspect I'm living in one. Is it an accurate depiction, or just one that suited the plot?
 
 
grant
14:45 / 21.08.02
(This is all a bit dusty - I was attracted more to Taoism than Confucianism in these classes)

The main concern of Confucianism was in propriety, which is a different thing altogether than "doing as you're told."
The rules are of an entirely higher order - to do that which is right. (Reverend Kirby Hensely, meet Kung Fu Tse.)
I remember ren, jen and li being key principles - the page cited immediately above waxes on about ren (kindness) and li (politeness) but not jen, which I vaguely remember was tied to justice in some way.

Anyway, the idea was to live in accordance with key virtues as much as humanly possible. Filial piety was a key one, with a very specific ranking for which relative came first in your priorities (father-son bond being strongest).

As far as images of resistance go, I *know* I've seen plenty of action films with the basic plot of perfect-officer-nailed-by-corrupt-system, but none come immediately to mind. Any story where the hero lives by a strict code of honor will be vaguely Confucian.

Here, from that Kung Fu Tse page:
Unlike India, where social obedience was absolute and, for instance, a wife was supposed to obey and worship her husband even if he was worthless, unfaithful, abusive, etc. (because it would be her karma to be in such a relationship), obedience in the Six Relationships in China was contingent on the superior member actually observing their duty to be benevolent and caring. Since the highest Confucian "obedience" is to do what is right, "true" obedience to parents, husband, ruler, etc. is to refuse to obey any orders to do what is wrong.

Refusal to obey the emperor out of "true" obedience could, of course, get one put to death; and Chinese history celebrates such martyrs.
 
 
sleazenation
14:49 / 21.08.02
examples of uncorrupt hero nailed by a corrupt system include
Luc Besson's Leon and Jim Jarmusch's Ghost Dog
 
 
grant
15:22 / 21.08.02
It's important to note that Ghost Dog's code is literal: Bushido, the Code of the Samurai.

This page discusses the origins of Bushido - Confucianism was one major influence, but there were others.
Bushido is much more obedience oriented, thinks I.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:48 / 21.08.02
Grant- I realise you were paraphrasing, but how do you define what is 'right' within Confucianism?
 
 
grant
16:57 / 21.08.02
Basically, and very briefly, what is right is that which keeps society going; that which maintains order, law and respect between people from high to low.
 
 
grant
17:09 / 21.08.02
Quick bit of research reveals jen and ren to be the same damn thing, transliterated differently.

Here:
There was, however, another side to Confucianism. Confucius not only stressed social rituals (li), but also humaneness (ren [jen]). Ren, sometimes translated love or kindness, is not any one virtue, but the source of all virtues. The Chinese character literally represents the relationship between "two persons," or co-humanity -- the potential to live together humanely rather than scrapping like birds or beasts. Ren keeps ritual forms from becoming hollow; a ritual performed with ren has not only form, but ethical content; it nurtures the inner character of the person, furthers his/her ethical maturation. Thus if the "outer" side of Confucianism was conformity and acceptance of social roles, the "inner" side was cultivation of conscience and character. Cultivation involved broad education and reflection on one's actions. It was a lifetime commitment to character building carving and polishing the stone of one's character until it was a lustrous gem. Master Kong described his own lifetime:

At fifteen, I set my heart on learning. At thirty, I was firmly established. At forty, I had no more doubts. At fifty, I knew the will of heaven. At sixty, I was ready to listen to it. At seventy, I could follow my heart's desire without transgressing what was right. Analects, 2:4


The inner pole of Confucianism was reformist, idealistic, and spiritual. It generated a high ideal for family interaction: members were to treat each other with love, respect, and consideration for the needs of all. It prescribed a lofty ideal for the state: the ruler was to be a father to his people and look after their basic needs. It required officials to criticize their rulers and refuse to serve the corrupt.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:37 / 22.08.02
Disclaimer: this question might come from my running dog imperialist education (or lack thereof).

If Confucianism is so resilient to corruption, why did it fail against the British imperialists and all that followed? Or did it? Is stability perhaps overrated? It seems like the less stable culture usually wins out.

Also, is Kong Fu Tze connected with Kung Fu? The martial art, not the TV show.
 
 
grant
18:21 / 22.08.02
"Kung Fu" simply means mastery. It's the same word.

And I think Confucianism did just fine through history, no matter who was in charge. It's still around.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:38 / 22.08.02
And I think Confucianism did just fine through history, no matter who was in charge. It's still around.

Circumcision is still around, too. Confucianism wasn't the foundation of any unusually stable society in China. They've gone through just as many changes as anyone else.
 
 
MJ-12
19:28 / 22.08.02
If Confucianism is so resilient to corruption, why did it fail against the British imperialists and all that followed?

Because a robust philosophy is no match for a breach-loading rifle.
 
  
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