Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

La Paltrow on UK/US 'dating'...

Page: (1)2

19:11 / 14.08.02

Her Lachrymose Fromagerie, Gwyneth Paltrow, is quoted in today's Evening Standard, lamenting the timidity and general ineptness of the British suitor:

"British people don't seem to ask each other out on dates...

"If someone asks you out they're really going out on a limb, whereas in America it happens all the time. Someone will come up to you and ask you for dinner and you'll say 'sure'. It's no big deal and no weight should be attached to it. It's only dinner, for God's sake.

"Yet in Britain mostly what happens seems to be that people meet at work. If there's a little something there then they hang out together and all of a sudden, they're boyfriend and girlfriend."

The article also quotes Canadian arts correspondent Leah McLaren, who apparently wrote a "scathing series of articles" last month on the general crapness of London bachelors:

"While the English man beats nervously around the bush, the American suitor goes for the female jugular."

Ignoring the obvious 'beating around the bush' jokes, do people recognise these tropes? I've had relatively little experience of hetero courtship rituals but if Ms Paltrow's views reflect reality, then the whole process seems, to me, slightly sad: UK 'dating' would seem impossibly coy and work-related (which is certainly how I remember it

) while the US equivalent, while superficially possessed of more scope, appears brutally mercenary and even a tad sexist (why should the male always be expected to approach, wine and dine his prospective date?)

Is this really how it is/was?

19:15 / 14.08.02

Most of the American men I know go about it the same way Paltrow says the Brits do it. It was certainly my strategy back in the days when my self-confidence was on the low side. Once I realized I was god's gift to women, though, that all changed.... oh yeah...

19:17 / 14.08.02

That is how it works in my limited experience. Most of my relationships have been work related, even my marriage.

You sort of spend more and more time together, people make assumptions, you believe them, you turn round one day and your in a long term relationship.

It's depressing me even talking about it.

There have been a couple of one off shags brought about by more imaginative approaches but I guess they don't count.

19:25 / 14.08.02

American women will ask men out as well. And, you know, other women, too, although I don't have personal experience of that.

19:26 / 14.08.02

So there's no implicit assumption that the man should pay for dinner, then? That sounds a little more egalitarian than Gwynnie seems to be implying.

19:32 / 14.08.02

cant speak for the british, but here certain people are a bit reluctant to be forward, and "fall into" their relationships. I havent experienced the former myself, but Ive known (worked with or related to) people who are that way.

this is, after all, where "the rules" was a successful top seller (blech). for anyone not familiar with this book, it pretty much tells women that they have to follow set "rules of the game", the game being capturing and marrying a man. Im not seeing how playing coy (or being respectfully reserved, for that matter) is a purely british thing. nor do I think that a casual, "its no big deal" outlook on dating is exclusively an american trait

19:34 / 14.08.02

'pay for dinner'?

I try not to even have dinner with her if I can avoid it, too messy.

19:38 / 14.08.02

ack!

sorta off topic, but Id like to stress that this 'rules' book was extremely popular. which means someone was buying into it, which means americans (in a very general sense) are no more savvy and intelligent and casual about dating than brits (again, generally)

19:39 / 14.08.02

Well, quite. Gwynnie's outlook - and I'm probably remembering 'The Rules' too here - makes it sound as if US courtship revolves around snapshot 'dinner' encounters and the UK equivalent around gradual, steady - quite possibly dull - work relationships.

Me, I worked with him for four months then turned up at his house with a bottle of organic red wine (to impress him - he was vegetarian then) and a bottle of vodka (to get him legless).

Dear Reader, I married him (almost).

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:49 / 14.08.02

Well, yeah. To be honest Paltrow's about as likely to have a grip on the sexual & social customs of most people in the UK as the Marquis of Bath. Your story seems more familiar to me, Ganesh - I've always thought that when people of my generation ask someone out on a date, they make it sound casual by calling it a "drink", with the implication that if something clicks, the alcohol consumed will help each of the two parties involved have the courage and/or recklessness to try to get into the other one's smalls. The concept of the "pick you up in my flash car, both of us impeccably dressed, a posh dinner & then some light opera" 'date' is as foreign and appaling to me as the "pizza & a movie" Dawson's Creek style 'date', and I'm sure I'm not alone...

19:56 / 14.08.02

Yeah... but Payce's de MAN, Flyboy!!!

20:03 / 14.08.02

I'm not sure Gwyneth is fully conversant with booze, nightclubs and dancing. Isn't that how most people meet?

20:26 / 14.08.02

First time I considered dating Meme I wasn't sure how he was going to take it, frankly. Well, not exactly "not sure". I didn't think he was going to have a clue about my intentions(I'm so sorry about the stereotyped vision). "He'll think it's just a frienly date! Can't let that happen!".
So when I saw him for the second time, my goodbye was a hug with a specific whispered order: "call me". Heh. I so underestimated him.

20:57 / 14.08.02

There is another good away to avoid all that messy dating thing, target your friend's partner.

As you are probably aware of most of your friends faults you will ahve plenty to talk about and can mold your percieved character to match the hole that they leave. You have plenty of excuses to spend time with them and unless one of the problems with the relationship you are about to take apart is a lack of going out you still will not have to pay for dinner. If your friend is already indulging in a bit of extra curricular and using you as cover then you will always know when best to appear.

This behaviour is strictly against any so called 'man code' or 'mate code' I've seen, which just means the friend is less likely to suspect.

21:00 / 14.08.02

From what I gather (and this isn't going to necessarily be strictly accurate) any sort of occasion where a man asks a woman out for some reason is considered a "date". I don't know about other UK hetero males, but I wouldn't be particularly fazed at asking a woman out to dinner - I just wouldn't consider it a date. I'd consider it getting to know them, which might or might not turn out to have romantic implications depending on how boring or otherwise they were. So maybe there's a difference in perception or social rules. I don't think the word "date" directly translates across the Atlantic.

the garden gnome

21:38 / 14.08.02

so, you guys aren't talking about figs and prunish thingers then?

well there goes my theory right out the window!

22:03 / 14.08.02

Agree with Fridge. What am a 'date'? What is 'dating'? Does not compute...

I don't think I have ever been on a 'date'. I have been out for lunch, I have been out for drinks, I have gone to the pub and got horribly trolleyed and gone back to someone's house for more drinks... but I have never been on a date. To me it rather implies going somewhere with someone you don't know very well just in case you might like them. There are better ways to find out whether you might like someone or not than spenidng a fraught evening wrestling over the Minstrels while watching 'Ocean's Eleven'.

22:08 / 14.08.02

Indeed. Perhaps the shy-and-retiring British cower from the up-front formality of the 'dating' concept? It all sounds horribly like a job interview...

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

23:32 / 14.08.02

It all sounds horribly like a job interview...

That's exactly what it felt like for me until I learned the art of Zen Dating. Now, it's a bit stranger for me. There's no hesitation, no "beating around the bush" for me when I'm going after random girl X of whom I know nothing, but when it comes to a girl that I feel I actually want something from (be it respect or attention or whatever), then I get all coy and shit. Fortunately, for that I have Voudou and black magic to help out until the Zen kicks in.

The informality of a date is what I hated most of all, especially since it involves one trying to be informal. There are "rules", apparently, but the most important one of all is "be yourself". What the fuck? As if these "rules" and "being yourself", if you can do it, will never come into contention with each other. And besides, to "be yourself", you have to know who that is first, and if you could do that it wouldn't have to be a damn "rule".

I can't say much for the British approach for dating and asking people out on dates, but over here it sucks ass as long as you keep thinking about it as "Dating" and "relationships".

06:02 / 15.08.02

It's best to meet people at work. You see them frazzled and narky, with their morning faces on and hangovers, and knackered at the end of the week. If you still fancy them after that, it was meant to be.

Of course, when it all goes horribly wrong, one of you has to get a new job. But look at it as the spur you needed.

Either that, or Barbestalking.

07:14 / 15.08.02

I've always liked Barbie. Much maligned by the right on press for being an unfortunate stereotype and a bad influence on our children I feel she is misunderstood. She means no harm, is kind to animals, a bit of an air head yes but aren't we all sometimes. She must have something to her as she works as a vet, which although obviously not as stretching as say a doctor has the advantage that malpractice is dealt with less harshly.

She is unfortunately less than a foot high, is made entirely from plastic and has no genitals. Relationship, possibly; sex, not going to happen. Taking her to dinner shouldn?t prove too expensive though.

10:13 / 15.08.02

sex, not going to happen

au contraire, though you'd have to do all the work

10:22 / 15.08.02

I'm off sick (everyone saw 'aww...') and I've been lying in bed thinking about this.

Why would het people's work-begun relationships be dull when yours wasn't, Ganesh? I'd say most of them are like yours: you work together for a while and a mild flirtation builds up (making work much more fun) to the point where it's really inevitable that you're going to get together. And by then you know whether you actually like, as well as fancy, the person so it's got more chance of working.

AS Sax says, it can get a bit awkward when you split up, and be a bit much having your SO around all the time, but it's lots of fun too, especially when you're trying to keep it secret.

I've been asked out 'American style' once, by a colleague in Boston when I was over there for work. He turned up by my desk, leant on the wall and said. 'Hey, I really like you! I want to take you out for dinner.' Cue massive stammering on my part as I try to crawl under my desk while making implausible excuses. I much prefer going out for a drink, seeing what happens. Of course, this means that without alcohol I would have no relationships at all.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:28 / 15.08.02

I've never knowingly done "dates"... I've always assumed it was an innocent drink. Yeah, sometimes I've had designs (if that's still the word), but, with the exception of one time I asked someone round to dinner and lived with her for the next two years (and even that was kind of a surprise) I've always been oblivious, thinking "yeah, let's go out and drink. And you never know..." but it's usually an idle fantasy.

10:49 / 15.08.02

without alcohol I would have no relationships at all.

Can I get an "AMEN!" over here?

I fail to see how the concept of "dating" makes anything easier. How can you say to someone you barely know, or someone you already know for that matter, that you're "interested" in them before you go anywhere? That way, the whole time you're out, there's this expectation in the air, cause by the fact that you've flagged the event in advance as "something other than normal hanging out".

If the only way I couuld spend time with someone I liked before making my move was to let them know that I liked them in advance, then let's just say that I'd have caught up on all that reading I've been planning to do ...

I think the "beating around the bush" problem is more to do with being too shy in your flirting, or waiting too long before going for the drunken snog, but you're going to get more time in which to do these things if you can just hang out with your prospective sweat-partner in normal situations, rather than saying in advance "Golly gee Missy, I like you."

No star here laces

13:57 / 15.08.02

Nice clothes-->Nightclub-->Drugs-->Eyes meet-->Gyrate-->Ask for cigarette-->Talk crap-->More drugs-->Sit in improbably urban location-->Talk about crap and think it's deep-->Profess undying love-->Go home together and pass out fully clothed-->Wake up before her and leave quietly but leave phone number and important item behind-->Meet up-->Dinner-->Shag-->Repeat until = Relationship

Is my impression of the standard brit dating model. I think it's grate and can't see how it could be improved upon.

15:25 / 15.08.02

The "cheeky colonial upstart coming over here and drawing unflattering comparisons between UK and colonial menfolk" is turning into a silly-season regular. It started a year or two ago when we had the US ambassador's daughter slagging off British boys for failing to floss their teeth between swear words or forgetting to curtsy to a genuine American princess.

"We do things better over our way." It's bloody rude, isn't it?

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:34 / 15.08.02

They aren't (like us)!

They only time i've done something related to 'dating' was with a Canadian guy i dated a few times, years ago. Seeing as how we were in London, he couldn't 'pick me up' - but he'd pick me up at charing X and take me for dinner/to the movies and see me back to the station afterwards. Sweet but very weird.

Mind you, got to eat some damn good meals (that was another thing, he absolutely refused to go dutch, but as the difference in our salaries was something like £100,100, i learnt to live with that. I'd buy him drinks in bars and he'd get really uncomfortable about it.)

Having said that, most of the north americans i know would be as likely to do this incredibly corsage/prom/movie style of dating as I would be to be 'presented' at a debutantes ball or an indian marriage party.

My relationships have started via school, college, festivals, jobs, people i've got chatting to in bars, restaurants... And yep, some intoxicant has been present in pretty much every case...

16:26 / 15.08.02

Hmmm, must think about this one.

I really can't say I notice much difference, other than it seems american guys say things like, "Um, I think yer rilly hot" more.

And I'd hazard a guess that ms. paltrow is not necessary down with the average dating citizen.

I did get a laugh out of this story, however. I figure she just got dumped by the british guy she was seeing or something.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:30 / 15.08.02

I've read bits and pieces of both articles, and both make me want to puke on my shoes. First off, I'm less than comfortable with the whole date thing for various reasons, but what really gets my goat is the whining tone: "Chase me, chase me! Oh, go on, chase me! Why won't you chase me? It's your JOB to CHASE ME! I'm SPECIAL!"

Uh. Sorry, honey, but if you're after an actual relationship with another adult human being then drop this ludicrous hunter-gatherer, you-Tarzan-me-Jane crap and fucking grow up. Try treating the bloke like an equal for once, rather than a-- what? A purchaser, I suppose. A life-support system for a wallet.

The only kind of people this crap is good for are women who are looking over their boyfriend's shoulder at the next divorce settlement. Fuck it right in the ear.

Both ears.

17:04 / 15.08.02

I was under the impression that if you're asking someone out for a drink, that's a date.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

23:33 / 16.08.02

it's because of grant's sentence that i ended where i am. he asked me to go out for a drink, but i assumed that meant hanging out. you know, platonic hanging out. to this day he claims it was our first date. i say he's a damn liar. going out for a drink does not constitute a date.

23:55 / 16.08.02

And I maintain that "hanging out" involves extracting and displaying one's genitals in public...

19:35 / 22.08.02

Fear not, men of the UK! Not all Hollywood starlets think you're passive little lambs!!!

From Sky:

Hollywood star Heather Graham has stuck up for British men after they took a pasting from fellow US actress Gwyneth Paltrow.

Graham was at the London premiere of her latest film The Guru and said she had never had any problems dating men from this country.

Paltrow recently complained that she had only been asked out on two dates during her last stay in the UK and claimed American men were far more confident with women.

But a bemused Graham said: "I've had a few English boyfriends and they were aggressive enough to ask me out."

20:04 / 22.08.02

Erm, yeah, didn't she 'date' Adam Ant...?

Page: (1)2