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PALESTINE - IS IT JUST ME?

 
  

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sleazenation
12:21 / 16.08.02
You miss my point. Its not that the government formed by Sharon has or has not perpetrated crimes against the palestinians. My point is that his government does not speak with one voice, for example former Israeli prime minister and current foreign minister Shimon Peres is part of Sharon's government, however he oversaw the Israeli withdrawel from the lebanon under is tenure as Prime minister.

Recently Sharon was nearly toppled from power, not directly because of his policies, but because to enable to afford to keep up defense spending he needed to cut funding to ultraorthadox schools - and ultra orthadox jewish factions of his government threatened to resign if he did this, casting his administration into minority government.

Sharon is not in complete and unconditional ideaological agreement with his own government and i beleieve it is a mistake to assume otherwise.
 
 
GreenMann
12:51 / 16.08.02
Thank u for your point and examples Sleazenation - I agree with u that the Israeli government does not always speak with one voice.

However, this doesn't change my key point that current Israeli government policies (AGREED COLLECTIVELY by parties of the current Sharon coalition) are, for reasons given, racist.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:24 / 16.08.02
I know that "institutional rascism" has a bad name in some quarters, but there is a case to be made for the behaviour of large structures which does not rely on the ideological coherence of its constituents. For instance, an analysis of the US or UK media might demonstrate an unwillingness to tolerate criticisms of their governments, at least beyond quite a narrow range.

However, one strays into the realms of cheap conspiracy if one imagines that all journos are taking brown envelopes full of money to ensure their loyalty.
 
 
GreenMann
11:10 / 17.08.02
Lilith thanx for your post which i wrote a reply to but then lost by accident!

U say "how can [one] begin to resolve a conflict without recognising the rights of both sides? Well ... actually ... that's just what i'm trying to do! In the absence of objective and evidence-based media coverage the Israel-Palestine issue seems to be a one sided pastiche of the Palestinian postion (and a one-sided whitewashing of the Israeli one). Most international academic research on media coverage concurs with this.

On another point, u say that "there has been continuous Jewish settlement in Israel for over 3,000 years". Yes, i know+agree that there has been a Jewish community in Israel/Paleestine for over 3,000 years, but my point is that up until 1948 it was always a minority, like the Christians.

U say that "every day, three times a day, Jews have turned towards Jerusalem and prayed for a return to the land. To deny the historical connection of the Jewish People to the land of Israel while asserting the Palestinians's claims is totally one-sided". Er ... hang on a minute ... u do realise that Palestinians see Jerusalem as their holy city too? Come to think of it so do the Christians! It is a universal fact (correct me if i am wrong) that, up to their expulsion by the Israeli government in 1948 Palestinians were the majority population. U also mention the "historical connection" of Jewish people to Israel/Palestine. Well, on that basis, mabey the descendants of ancient Britons should kick out these Anglo-Saxon and Norman imposters - let's start demolishing their homes and expelling them back to Germany and France now! Can't u see how ubsurd and racist that argument is?

Thank you for pointing out how Israel has changed in its view towards the Palestinians. U say that the "overwhelming majority of Israelis, even today, want to achieve a peace settlement. Around 70% of the population in a recent poll said that they would trade land for a genuine peace". I am heartened, but not surprised, by this news because, having visited Israel, i know that many people want a genuine peace with their Palestinian neighbours and are horrified by the collective punishment of Palestinians so zealously implemented by war criminal Sharon.

U mention the Palestinian break from Oslo and killing of 600 Israelis (if u want to talk numbers, more than 600 Palestinian kids alone have been murdered by the IDF) three-quarters of whom are civilians and that the Palestinian Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel even though, as part of Oslo, it was agreed that it would be amended. From what I remember Oslo offered the Palestinians a 'shredded' West Bank with hundreds of Israeli colonies expanding within it, with no right to return for Palestinian refugees to their land. Some deal!

I diagree with u when u say that Israel has genuinely moved and wanted to make peace at Oslo, Wye, Camp David. I personally doubt that Israel wants peace, especially under mass murderer Sharon. Why should it? Constantly expanding Greater Israel is armed to the teeth and subsidized massively by the US taxpayer and can effectively do what it wants, with the occasional wrist slapping. The problem is: where do Israeli borders END? According to biblical stories they could be as far as Iraq! Israel's political role is, of course, the willing US rotweiller in a region dominated+controlled by US multinationals. Practically all Israeli maps already incorporate the Palestinian territory of the West Bank+Gaza, +the Syrian Golan Heights. What do u think that says?

Finally, u say that the charcterisation of Israelis as Nazis suggests that Israelis/Jews are no better than those who singled them for mass slaughter in the worst crime against humanity of the 20th century. Uhh ... again not quite. As i said, there r many Israelis/Jews who r rightly disgusted by the slow extermination of Palestinian society and who, like me, believe that the Israeli government, led by war criminal Sharon and its zionist ideologues who r behaving just like the nazis used to, and that they seem to have learned nothing from history. Never again ... by anyone.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:17 / 17.08.02
Actually, by insisting on the right to "reclaim" areas "taken" from a notional historical perception of their borders in order to protect themselves against neighbour states who they feel hate and want to destroy them, they are behaving as the *Germans* did, not the Nazis.

However, unless you can prove that Sharon owes his ascent to power to a backstage deal made with von Papen, I suspect your continuing raising of the emotional temperature with mention of Nazis is going to be seen as bad rhetoric at best. Maybe if everyone could put a pin in the "War Criminal Sharon and his merry band of Zionists are just like the Nazis" argument for a moment and concentrate on the current situation and how to resolve it?

For example, what do people think about the potentially rather Isaacian role of Omri Sharon?
 
 
Lilith Myth
13:12 / 17.08.02
Greenman: I'm not going to argue every point with you, as I'm short on time, but I'd say this:

I just looked at a Palestine History site, and its time line starts in 1900. The PLO was formed in 1964. I'm not in any way denying the rights of Palestinians to live in Palestine - any more than I'm sure you're not denying the rights of Israelis to live in Israel - but Palestine is a modern construct. In fact, my family born in Israel/Palestine between 1929 and 1948 are also Palestinians.

Jerusalem is an international city, home of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. The challenge is to come up with a solution that works for all parties.

And finally; it comes down to a matter of opinion as to whether Israel wants peace. I firmly beleive she does - and seeing my friend and kids who were in the UK on vacation this week and haven't been out of their house for two years, I think most Israelis want it to. If you want to believe some kind of globalist conspiracy theory is what underpins all of this, then that's your choice.
 
 
GreenMann
08:29 / 19.08.02
Lilith Thanx for the Time Line info and your other comments.

I understand your point about not being able to answer each point - i feel the same! There's so many points+i still haven't explained what i mean by 'media censorship' (which i will do when i have a moment), so i'll make this quick.

Regarding your point, based on the Palestinian history site, u seem to imply (tell me if i'm wrong) that Palestinian history started only 100 years ago! This just goes to show how the exactly same information can be interpreted in completely different ways! I read on the same site that the Arab community have lived in Palestine since 638AD! If u r suggesting that, because they didn't have the "modern constructs" of political expression+an nation state until recently, that they somehow don't count then i disagree with u.

I disagree with u that the Israeli government, under Sharon, really wants peace. I don't know where u got the conspiracy theory stuff from - Israel's imperialist role in the region is well known by all, even if it isn't reported much.

Sharon, as u must know, was elected as the uncompromising Hatchet Man to kick Palestinian ass+, through more+more territorial expansion (or "facts on the ground") to build a Greater Israel. He started off the current Intifada by trashing the sacred Muslim mosque in Jerusalem with his Mossad henchman. "Peace with Security"? Sure.

I dearly hope for peace too, but believe the only hope left is for the sacking of Sharon, re-election of the Israeli Labour Party, a re-recognition of the PLA+ a disbanding of that constant flow of salt to the Palestine/Israel wound: the settlements.
 
 
GreenMann
10:09 / 23.08.02
To clarify what i mean by media censorship, here are some recent historical and generally agreed academic FACTS about Palestine+Israel that are often omitted (dare i say censored?) by our so-called free press:

- The Palestinian leadership, most other arab groups and governments
have long recognised Israel's right to exist within pre-1967
borders.

- Israel has never recognised the right to exist of a free and
independent Palestine. Notice how Western journalists can't even
describe the occupied West Bank and Gaza as 'Palestine'. (Remember
how Blair had to grovel to Sharon after Jack Straw used the 'P' word
in Iran?).

- Palestine (West Bank and Gaza Strip) was illegally invaded and
occupied by a foreign country (Israel) in 1967.

- Apart from the recent period of PA autonomy, the illegal Israeli
occupation remains.

- As a result, armed Palestinian groups (or "terrorists" according to
the Israelis) have fought back in self-defence against the illegal
occupying power, as would any country.

- Ariel "Butcher" Sharon was found guilty by the Israeli army of
presiding over the 1982 massacre of between 3,000 and 4,000 innocent
Palestinian women, children and old men at Sabre and Shatila refugee
camps in Lebanon, after all young men had been expelled from the
camps.

- The Israeli army, in line with its policy of "Collective
Punishment", has kept under siege over 2 million terrified
Palestinians in their homes in up to 35c heat, only allowed out 2 to
4 hours per week to go to the shop, although still at risk of being
shot by the IDF or colonists, or risk their homes demolished.

- The Israeli Constitution is racist (e.g. 'right to return').

- Voluntary International Observers from the US, Israel, UK and
other European countries have been helping out in Palestinian
refugee camps for over 2 years and regularly demonstrate with
Palestinians against the cruel IDF siege, checkpoints, home
demolisions, settler pogroms, water supply diversions, olive
grove and other crop destructions, curfews, at IDF check points.


Of course other information about media misinformation regarding the conflict can be obtained from sources such as Chomsky, Pilger and others. Many argue it is impossible for our media to report objectively on the Israel/Palestine war because Israel is such a close US-funded client-state and that the very same multinational media organisations that provide our news are tied politically and economically to the US-Israeli imperialist project in the oil-rich middle east.

"Individuals have International duties which transcend the national
obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace & humanity."
(Nuremberg War Crime Tribunal, 1950)
 
 
Lilith Myth
11:20 / 23.08.02
Greenmann: I can't debate with you until you use less emotive language.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:38 / 23.08.02
Then, quite frankly, you should pick another debate.

I'm sorry, Lilith, but there's emotive language deployed on both sides of this argument all the time. More, if you pick out some of the words you think are emotive, I'll bet some people will feel they are merely accurate.

Please don't bow out. I've been watching this dispute with great interest - your case is excellent. But so is his. That's part of the problem.

As I've suggested elsewhere today, if the two of you can't come close to a common understanding, there's very little hope for any in the rest of the world either.
 
 
sleazenation
11:46 / 23.08.02
not a lot of time to reply in detail at the moment but i don't think there is much of a case for press censorship on the point you describe - for example its commonly reported that palestinians accept Israels pre 1967 borders now (not that they always did, but that is irrelevant to this debate). This is why one of the palestinians stated desires is to see israel pull back to those pre '67 borders (as agreed in a UN resolution).
 
 
Lilith Myth
13:01 / 23.08.02
Emotive language is used on both sides of the debate, I agree.

But whilst I am moderating my language to as close as neutral as I can get - and many others Barbelites I've debated with seem to do the same - Greenmann is inisisting on using phrases like "the Israel constitution is racist", "behaving like Nazis themselves" or words like "trashing" "henchmen" and others. The choice of these phrases seems to imply a desire to make a point rather than enter into any real debate that might move understanding forward on both "sides."

And I didn't imply that Palestinian history started one hundred years ago - just pointed out that that's when the site chose to start its time line. Arabs and Jews have a longstanding claim of historical presence on the land.

Reiterating sleazenation's points: Israel is the only country rated "Free" by the 2000 Freedom House report on democracy and human rights in the Middle East. Israel is a parliamentary democracy consisting of legislative, executive and judicial branches. It has an electoral system of proportional representation, and the whole state is considered a single constituency.

According to the Steinmetz Peace Center; "However, when we examined respondents' world views on the conditions of a possible agreement with the Palestinians, we found that the majority has retained what are considered "leftist" opinions. Thus a majority of 61% of the overall Jewish public supports or strongly supports the establishment of a Palestinian state "within the context of a lasting peace agreement, including the Palestinian waiver of the refugees' right of return to locations inside Israel's borders."

I'm really interested in having these conversations, but I'd prefer people to bring facts rather than opinions, and I don't enjoy the debate if the langauge I have them in feels like a constant, personal attack.
 
 
sleazenation
13:59 / 23.08.02
Just popping in briefly again to

Accusations of racism may be emotive but how do you describe a nation state that was explicitly set up on ethno/religious lines and actively promotes immigration of others of the same enthno/religious background? Yes Israel recognises that it has non-jewish citizens most of which are are arab in descent, but how well are thosse rights observed on the ground?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:24 / 23.08.02
Now I just want to know what Freedom House is. Last time I looked, constructing a Berlin-style wall across a chunk of annexed territories was not the action of a democratic state. I'm past the point where I see great virtue in either Palestinian or Israeli claims to be in the right - I have no sympathy with anyone who thinks blowing up kids is a constructive argument, whatever the circumstances.
 
 
Lilith Myth
16:13 / 23.08.02
For the record, of course I don't think blowing up kids, adults, anyone is OK.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:37 / 24.08.02
I'm past the point where I see great virtue in either Palestinian or Israeli claims to be in the right - I have no sympathy with anyone who thinks blowing up kids is a constructive argument, whatever the circumstances.

Lilith Myth's sort of already made the point, but Nick, on what planet does the above logic function, unless I'm reading it wrong and the second part of the sentence is not cited as a reason for the first. Are you seriously implying that the "claims to be in the right" of either side (which is a fairly drastic simplifying term for a very broad spectrum of beliefs) are discredited because they *all* support killing children (untrue, although often suggested by Westerners with typical racist superiority), or because some children have been killed in the name of either cause, which in turn discredits them automatically even if the majority of people who hold to a cause do not support such actions (fairly specious reasoning)?

I know the notion that all supporters of Palestinian self-determination etc also support or at least excuse suicide bombings is one widely perpetuated by the mainstream media, but it's simply not the case...
 
 
Lilith Myth
11:54 / 24.08.02
Freedom House.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:32 / 24.08.02
"Freedom House was established sixty years ago for the purpose of mobilizing support for the war against fascism. Just as we did at that time, we today give our full and unstinting support to the government of the United States and to the international coalition of nations that is committed to the struggle to defeat the scourge of terrorism. Freedom House believes that the conflict against fanatical perpetrators of terrorist acts must be won if democracy and liberty are to flourish."

No comment.
 
 
GreenMann
13:36 / 25.08.02
Lilith, thanx for the Freedom House link. It gives me a warm feeling to know my freedom is protected by such a group ... well ... some people's freedom anyway! I'm sorry u can't debate further because of my "emotive" language. But, let's face it, it's an emotive subject: even Freedom House describes Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation as the "scourge of terrorism".

The Freedom House (FH) site obviously claims some sort of objective, moral authority on middle east issues to the point of declaring Israel the only "free" nation in that region. Uhhh ... ok ... but despite FH's detailed history of Israel, West Bank+Gaza, it doesn't touch on the core Israel-Palestine problem: the rapidly-expanding Israeli settlement 'cities' dotted throughout the best Palestinian territory ... with new colonies being built all the time, especially under Sharon.

These well-funded colonies are mentioned by FH, but only in relation to "terrorist" attacks or political negotiations. How the settlements actually got there in the first place, or why they cause so much Palestinian anger+mistrust is left a complete mystery.

The very notion that Palestinian land is occupied in the first place is questioned by FH or left inconsiderable doubt. For example, the FH site describes Gilo, a well-known Israeli colony as "a Jewish suburb of Jerusalem"! The fact that Gilo is an Israeli settlement has been unchallenged by extremists at either end of the conflict ... until now that is!

Thanx again, i'm definitely going to use the FH site in future Israel+Palestine chats.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:35 / 26.08.02
Fly - both sides make claims to the moral high ground. Neither side has it. Both sides claim to be on the receiving end of a vicious campaign of violence, which must end before they can come to the table. In both cases, this is frankly unrealistic.

Neither side can entirely guarantee to deliver its extremists, to end the violence, so effectively, both sides are saying they won't talk.

I didn't say there weren't good people around. I just said no side is right. They're both (or rather, all) wrong. The question is, is it more important to be right, or to be at peace?

I think Justice will have to come later for all involved. Right now, we're just watching the crimes stack up.
 
 
Francine I
18:12 / 26.08.02
The topic abstract here is most certainly emotionally loaded.

Of course, this issue tends to inspire such sentiments on both sides of the fence. Pragmatically, no one is about to rhetorically lay to waste their antagonists, in this situation, as both sides are absolutely certain that they are correct. There are plenty of variations in thoughts about what should be done about the current state of affairs, but the certainty, regardless of the action it inspires, enflames those on the other half of the court to the extent of total irrationality.

Historically, this all did begin with an occupation, and an occupation is still underway. The Isrealis are correct in asserting that assault on innocent civilians is unnacceptable conduct even in a time of war -- unfortunately, they themselves indulge in such strategic temptations.

I thoroughly believe, however, that the first steps in productive peace talks must begin with the cessation of occupational activities on the part of the Isreali armed forces. Until this is done no Palestinian, however militant, will believe that the Isrealis are interested in a true and lasting peace. To them, this occupation is the war, and the extremist elements will only reflect the position of the less extreme (that Isreal should be made to halt) until the principal concern is addressed -- that Palestinian civilians are being pushed out of their homes and into refugee camps every day.

While it cannot be argued that the approach certain Palestinians have chosen for accomplishing this end is counterproductive to the goal being sought, these extremities of behaviour are not entirely unexpected. They also should not be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card for equivelent response. We cannot ignore the injustices perpretated by one simply because they are perpetrated by the other.

Realistically, however, if the world wants the movement responsible for generating suicide bombers to lose it's steam, the cause that fires the movement must be deflated.

It requires no strategic sacrifice on the part of Isreal to cease the present occupational activities. While I'm no authority, I would venture that further violence on the part of the Palestinians would be quite sporadic for some time, and room could be made for negotiation as regards reclamation of territories and habitations in Jeruselum.

In other words, practically, Isreal must make the first step. You can't take anything more from the Palestinians. You cannot threaten them. You cannot make them stop. They are desperate and single-minded. Their suicide bombers are sometimes educated, politically aware and motivated individuals. Genocide or racial cleansing will be necessary in order to halt the violence prior to Isreal budging. These are facts. We're not dealing with a force that can be economically pressured into submission -- nor morally, nor violently.

If Isreal fails to offer this concession, Isreal is accepting a course of action that amounts to, by logical sequence, racial cleansing at best and genocide at the most horrific. So, while Isreal has little to gain in the way of chips weighed against the Palestinians through such a maneuver, it has much to gain in the way of peace with the Palestinians, and indeed must opt for a concession in order to prevent far greater atrocity.

The will of the people will ultimately drive or undermine the militant Palestinians. The will of the people is first for safety from further displacement and cruelty, and secondly for peace. Presently, the people are so frightened and enraged -- reminded every day of the wrongs they collectively remember by fresh stones thrown -- that the militants have carte blanche to "do whatever it takes". This situation, however, need not be perpetuated. A small sacrifice on the part of a powerful country could go a very, very long way here.

Unfortunately, Isreal feels they require the land being occupied and the economic power being seized both to ensure future growth, and to accomodate the Right of Return. Before Isreal will budge, they must be convinced that these two imperatives can be met under a peace agreement necessitating an immediate cessation of occupation in Palestinian territories.

The road to peace, in this case, requires both sides seeing beyond the fog of war. If peace can be acheived, the Palestinians can be fruitful and free without threatening their neighbors, and the Isrealis can insure further growth by cooperating with the Palestinians. We know how to convince the Palestinians that a better way is possible. We know who's on top, in a military sense. Isreal, then, must be convinced to lay grudges aside and take the first step towards a lasting peace.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:42 / 27.08.02
Relevant piece in The Guardian - UK's Chief Rabbi says Jewish state adopting a stance 'incompatible' with the deepest ideals of Judaism. (27 Aug 2002)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:20 / 27.08.02
The question is, is it more important to be right, or to be at peace?

I would say that this relies greatly on your definition of 'peace'.
 
 
Lilith Myth
16:43 / 27.08.02
Here's the direct link the the Guardian piece.

I've never before shared a view with the Chief Rabbi - who, incidently, has outrageously outmoded views on womens' issues, but that's another thread - but I'm inclined to agree with him. It's the delicate balance of liberal supporters of Israel; not denying her right to exist, continuing to support her, whilst at the same time commenting on what needs fixing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
05:54 / 28.08.02
I agree- in this instance he is being eminently reasonable. And a lot of people are giving him shit about it. Hopefully a vocal minority, however.

(Almost flippant comment- I think it'd probably save us all a lot of time if anyone who DID actually think killing civilians was a good thing made themselves known, as we mostly seem to be in agreement on that particular issue, at least.)
 
 
GreenMann
09:31 / 28.08.02
In common with Lilith and others, i also agree with Britain's Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, in particular his comments about the incompatibility of Israel's stance in the occupied territories with Judaism's deepest ideals, his strong warning to Israel about its conduct in the Middle East crisis, i.e. "I regard the current situation as nothing less than tragic. It is forcing Israel into postures that are incompatible in the long run with our deepest ideals".

Well done Jonathan Sacks!! What a relief that Rabbi Sacks is prepared to publicly speak out against Israeli conduct in occupied Palestine, + against the subsequent "hatreds and insensitivities that in the long run are corrupting [Jewish] culture".

It is reassuring to know, not that there was ever any doubt, that decent Israelis and Jews are prepared to speak out against the extreme right-wing policies of the Sharon government. Rarely has Jewish/Israeli criticism of Israeli government policy been so widely reported in the Western media, despite ongoing campaigns and resistance in Israel by direct-action peace groups; the growing numbers of 'refusenick' military conscripts; the many peace-loving Israelis who will not live in the illegal colonies (despite massive state subsidies) and the millions of Israelis who are reluctant to risk the 'treachery' of criticising the Sharon government in the current coercive, war-like climate.

Mabey ... if enough people inside+outside of Israel take direct action+speak out against the crimes of ethnic cleansing and colonisation, then a genuine peace can be achieved. Perhaps ... with internal dissent and international pressure ... the Israeli government might remove the settlements, allow Palestinian refugees to return to their country+permit an independent Palestinian state etc. (but, then again, i'm a born optimist!).

I'm sorry if the words I have used here are emotive to some but i have based my opinions on information/history gathered from people on both sides of the conflict+visits to Israel. I really cannot find any other less emotive words to describe the historic removal of one community to make way for another. Unfortunately, it is clear to anyone who has witnessed the desperatation, poverty+ruins of West Bank+Gaza coomunities, that a slow but thorough wiping out of Palestinian society continues.
 
 
GreenMann
15:06 / 28.08.02
In response to Chairman Maominstoat's question asking anyone who thought killing civilians was a good thing to make themselves known: i for one completely 100% oppose the killing of any civilians anywhere at any time, under any circumstances. Unfortunately, as we all know, most armed Israeli+Palestinian groups disagree with me.

Palestinian groups continue their policy of killing any Israelis anytime, anyplace, anywhere whether they are civilians or not (e.g. 'terrorist' suicide attacks on civilian buses).

Armed Israeli settler groups+the IDF, under its 'collective punishment' policy of the last 2 years, have killed almost as many Palestinian civilians as victims of the World Trade Centre attacks (e.g. 'state terrorist' missile attacks on inhabited residential blocks).

But i think asking people whether or not they agree with killing civilians is a bit too simplistic, especially if they are already suffering violence. The RAF killed tens of thousands of innocent German civilians during WW2 bombing raids+ this was the cause of popular celebrations on the streets here. That's not to say its right, just something that happens in the madness called war.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:23 / 29.08.02
Well yeah, I was being a bit facetious. And at the same time trying to get some kind of agreement on something. And yeah, the WWII analogy- Dresden springs to mind (is Godwin's Law invokable for the Dresden argument? If so, then mea culpa.)

I think the point is that we should be trying to discuss/look for ways around what seems a well-nigh impossible situation- simply flinging facts back and forth at each other's only serving to make us all angry. (Sorry... I've just realised that sounded horribly patronising. Apologies. I am, of course, including myself in there.)

I know it was on a MUCH smaller scale, but Northern Ireland seemed just as impossible until a couple of years ago. It's still a long way from sorted, but you can almost see sorted from here. Hope springs eternal and all that.

And I do think, while I am largely in support of the Palestinian cause, and can almost understand that terrorism may be the only option left, consistently blowing people up even after good-will gestures/concessions have been made does tend to shoot itself in the foot a bit...

I think both sides have comprehensively lost the moral high ground at this point, and should be looking more at solutions than victories.
 
 
Baz Auckland
12:02 / 29.08.02
...it was a bad Tom Clancy book, where the Palestinians took up civil disobedience and non-violence and within months there was peace...

...and then terrorists tried to nuke the superbowl, but that's just an unfortunate side effect of mideast peace...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:04 / 29.08.02
Re: Jonathan Sacks - it's very very easy to sound 'eminently reasonable' whilst deploring obvious excesses of state terror and at the same time holding a position which is little more tenable and in fact relies on still perpetuating injustice (cf the large number of right-wing, hawkish politicians and commentators who have opposed a full-scale military assault on Iraq in recent weeks but are hardly spokesmen for peace or opponents of American imperialism).

I'm afraid that while Sacks' recent demonstration of 'dovish' tendencies are to be applauded, he generally falls into line with the standard Western doctrinal line which sees the Oslo treaties and what was offered at Camp David as part of a "peace process" worthy of the name. This in turn naturally lends itself to other (widely believed) distortions of the truth, such as the myth that the US has acted as an even-handed broker of peace in the region; or the extremely facile and one-sided claim that "every time Israeli liberals preach compromise, Palestinians kill more innocents" (incidentally, Lilith Myth: the interview with Sacks I'm referring to is one of many which on close examination reveals that the Guardian is not the rapid Hamas mouthpiece you might think); or the idea that "Israel made the "cognitive leap" towards compromise when former prime minister Ehud Barak offered major concessions two years ago, and... "there has been no parallel cognitive leap" on the Palestinian side".

Edward Said offers an alternative take on Camp David here:

Barak made it absolutely clear that he had no intention of returning to the 1967 borders, which was the principle on which the peace process was started—that there would be a return of all the territory to the June 5, 1967 borders. Second, he made it absolutely clear that there would be no return of the refugees. Third, he made it absolutely clear that there would be no return of Jerusalem to Palestinian sovereignty at all. Fourth, he made it absolutely clear that he had no intention of uprooting any of the settlements. These are the positions on which his whole subsequent negotiation was based. He didn’t concede anything. He said, we will allow you a form of sovereignty in the holy places. We will keep the Christian and Armenian sections. You can have a little bit of sovereignty over some of the Muslim holy places, but the real substantive sovereignty over East Jerusalem will remain in Israeli hands. The vast majority of the city in terms of area would remain under Israel. That was supposed to be a “forward-looking” position.

Faced with this, Arafat couldn’t agree. Not only because of the conditions, which were terrible, but also for two other reasons. One is that Arafat was being asked to end the conflict and end any Palestinian claims against Israel and thereby ending any Muslim-Christian claims against Israel. He couldn’t do it. Secondly, he was also being asked to give up Palestinian claims to the right of return and self-determination, which again he couldn’t do. Far from it being an opportunity for Arafat to take advantage of Israeli generosity, it was an opportunity for Arafat effectively to commit suicide and to give Israel the last prize, you might say the cherry on the sundae, which was everything they wanted in addition to what Arafat had already conceded, which was 78 percent of what they had in 1948. He also conceded West Jerusalem. The concessions Arafat made were vastly more generous and ill considered than anything the Israelis did.
 
 
GreenMann
09:28 / 02.09.02
Regarding Chairman Maominstoat's post about discussing/looking for "ways around what seems a well-nigh impossible situation in Israel-Palestine [...] optimism for the Northern Ireland agreement" etc.

I also think the big picture shows grounds for optimism. I think deep, historical conflicts CAN be resolved. Who would have thought 20 years ago that white racist ("fight to the death") rule in South Africa would be transferred so easily to the black majority without hardly any violence, despite all the threats from the feared Boar groups. Likewise, who would have thought that the Irish war could be resolved through agreement 3 centuries after the first Protestant settlements. But, despite police+Loyalist provocation, the agreement still holds after nearly 5 years!

I believe that the relatively recent 50 year old conflict in Israel/Palestine can also be resolved through agreement. The combination of internal dissent, sanctions, boycott+other international pressure CAN work. In the case of Israel, the key to success of such pressure is, of course, the US.

The US taxpayer subsidises Israel massively both directly+indirectly. The PA claims that US 'Development Aid' to Israel goes straight to the 1st world Zionist colonies in West Bank+Gaza, despite 3rd world poverty+malnutrition affecting almost half of all Palestinian children, according to international NGOs.

The US could save enormous amounts of money+make itself internationally credible (even popular!) for once by economically pulling the plug on Israel+making the country stand on its 2, quite capable, capitalist feet. The US could join the rest of world+pressure Israel to abide by the pile of UN resolutions demanding its withdrawal to pre-1967 frontiers, removal of the hated colonies+allow Palestinian refugees back to an independent Palestine. Secure borders, an understandable Israeli concern after several Arab invasions, could be absolutely guaranteed by the US, the EU+even Arab states - a massive coalition used to safeguard peace! Is all this so impossible? Or am i just crazily optimistic this sunny monday morning?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:15 / 02.09.02
Fly, I think you dismiss Sacks too quickly. I'm going to read the book and see. But he is not wrong in saying that the Israeli peacecamp is frustrated by Hamas attacks - those attacks, whether morally justifiable or not, whether understandable or not, diminsh the power of the Israeli doves to influence the majority of the population who live, for whatever reason, under a state of siege. It's rather easy to say 'be grown up, offer the olive branch in spite of your fear' from London, less so from Jerusalem or Gaza - for either side.

Still, when pressed, he will admit the anguish Israel's own conduct causes him. "There are things that happen on a daily basis which make me feel very uncomfortable as a Jew." He was "profoundly shocked" by reports of smiling Israeli soldiers posing for a photograph with the corpse of a slain Palestinian. "There is no question that this kind of prolonged conflict, together with the absence of hope, generates hatreds and insensitivities that in the long run are corrupting to a culture."

And,

Would it not help if he was less roundabout on this topic? No, he says, people listen to "a still, small voice" more readily than a loud one. Besides, in desperate times, a prophet is called on to give a message of hope: Jews feel so beleaguered by the current Middle Eastern situation, he says, it is his job to encourage, not scold.

He may be right. God knows, there are enough loud, angry voices on both sides.

Another book I hope to find the time to read soon - Drinking the Sea at Gaza. Lilith, you should read this one while Fly reads Sacks...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:54 / 11.09.02
From "New Rulers of the World" by John Pilger:

For thirty five years at least, Palestinians have been denied a right of return to their homes, in breach of numerous United Nations resolutions and international law. In demanding Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza, the Security Council used words strikingly similar to those that demanded Iraq's withdrawal from Kuwait in 1990...

... events in Palestine are reported in the West in terms of two warring rivals, not as the oppression of an illegal occupier and the resistance of the occupied...

... suicide bombers are a relatively recent phenomenon, the product mostly of the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon, which left 17,500 dead...

... It is rarely reported that of the hundreds killed and thousands wounded in the second intifada, 90 per cent have been Palestinian civilians, 45 per cent have been under eighteen, and 60 per cent were shot while in their homes, schools, and workplaces.


The rest of the chapter is more unnerving, because it suggests, with compelling evidence, that the assassination of Hamas leader Mahmud Abu Hunud on 23rd November 2001 was intended to provoke suicide bombings in Israel as a pretext for the full-scale invasion of Palestinian territory.

We're children.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:34 / 11.09.02
You think that's disturbing - I'm currently reading the ironically titled chapter 'Seeking Peace: Stage One' in the section on the Middle East ('History's Greatest Prize') in Chomsky's World Orders, Old and New. Highly recommended, specifically with relation to UN Resolution 242, Israel's invasion of Lebanon (the reasons for given by Israeli leaders at the time compared to the reasons attributed by the US media is particularly shocking), and the compelling argument that monopolization of water supplies, not security, has been the key motivation for Israeli's desire to keep the occupied territories occupied...
 
  

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