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War Literature

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:56 / 13.08.02
I suppose when one thinks of war literature (especially if you are British and were forced to do the War Poets at school) one immediately thinks of the first world war and the litearay outburst which surrounded it (Paul Fussell wrote a very good account of this called The Great War and Modern Memory which is well owrth reading if you are interested and have not already come across it - I would lend if my marginal comments weren't so fatuous).

I'm interested in how writers have responded to other wars, and how those responses might differ from the WW1 ones (I suspect a great many will refer back to the WW1 literature in some way, actually). Can you help? Also - how might the depiction of war in art have affected sci-fi (a genre in which it seems to be impossible to not be at war) - ?

And, on a more general note, what have you read and what can you recommend...
 
 
ill tonic
02:53 / 14.08.02
My favorite war fiction has to be THE THINGS THEY CARRIED by Tim O'Brien -- a very moving, hard hitting, collection of stories set in Vietnam.

FNG(FUCKING NEW GUY) was another good portrayl of the vietnam war (I can't remember the authors name.) as was SHORT TIMERS, which Kubrick turned into FULL METAL JACKET. (Again the authors name escapes me.)

I liked some of Norman Mailers war writing.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:49 / 14.08.02
I love George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia - his account of his time fighting the facists in the Spanish Civil War. I used to have the entire collection of Sven Hassel novels, which were supposed to be a biographical account of his life in a German WWII Penal Regiment. After doing some research for an article, though, I found some of the characters remarkably similar to (The Good Soldier)Svejk - another anti war classic - and a priest in Gargantuan and Rabalais (not about war - a medieval romp centred around food and shitting, from what I remember), but the Hassel books are good reading in their own way, and rather tragic.

I hardly need mention Catch 22, of course. My sister raves about a book called A Midnight Clear, which I can't remember the author of. It was made into a film, that didn't exactly set the box office alight (which probably means it might have been quite good). And Ballard's Empire of the Sun is supposed to be good, although I've only seen the film.

I have a book called The Monoculed Mutineer, about Percy Topliss, who impersonated a British Officer during WWI. There was a tv series of the same name, which I suspect was rather romanticised. And, of course, I've just read a manuscript of a war-related book written by one of our own Barbefolk. But I'm not allowed to talk about it - check it out when it's published!

Years ago I read an account of a woman who had survivedone of the conentration camps, Belsen I think it was. Can't remember her name, but the book was called Five Chimneys and it had a lasting impression.
 
 
grant
18:42 / 14.08.02
Catch 22 - Korea.

Gravity's Rainbow - WWII

Both brilliant, widely read.

Didn't e.e. cummings do some war poetry starting out? I'm pretty sure he'd be a wwii poet.

Vietnam, I suppose was the movies & pop songs war... except for Michael Herr's 'Dispatches' (he helped write Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket). And 'Short Timers' by Gus Hasford. Both of those are really non-fiction, though.

And, of course, WH Auden's "September 1, 1939" is a classic.

WWI was a general insanity, breaking the back of the Enlightenment. WWII was a war against a specific insanity.
All the subsequent ones have been kind of stuck between the two. Aftershocks.
I mean, would Ken Kesey or Hunter Thompson count as Vietnam War writers?

-------------

Would the Beats count as WWII responders?

Kerouac would never have been able to go On The Road if he hadn't been getting GI benefits.

And Kerouac and Hemingway probably had a few things in common, psychologically - the Beats were very much a lost generation, if not THE Lost Generation.

-------------
The bulk of sci fi isn't really about war, although wars do provide a great excuse to show off technology.

Also, sci fi is a genre that borrows heavily from other genres: a sci-fi western, a sci-fi detective thriller, a sci-fi war tale, a sci-fi historical epic. (examples, in order: Star Trek, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Starship Troopers, Dune.)

The main sci fi war image I have is from Bradbury's 'The Martian Chronicles,' when the colonists see the green star of Earth go red and split open.

-----------------
Thus, it's also worth mentioning that the final blow of WWII - the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - impacted world literature more than any of the actual fighting. Atomic terror. The End of Everything. As a theme, it was around for years and years and years.

------------
One final side note: if you'd like a bizarre sci-fi war experience, see if you can find a copy of Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream."
It's a fictional novel (meaning a novel that was never written in our reality) by a young Austrian immigrant - tried to be an artist, dabbled in politics, then moved to America to become a science fiction magazine illustrator and writer. His name, of course, is Adolf Hitler. The novel Hitler writes is a bit like a creepy, creepy Mein Kampf-crossed-with-straight-sci-fi. As a callow teen, it freaked me out both at how obviously Nazi it was, and how obviously like straight science fiction it was. Neat bit of deconstruction.
 
 
T*M*U*M*A
21:13 / 14.08.02
oh.. grant .. to pick up your point about Hunter Thompson being regarded as a Vietnam writer..

i remember reading an article by him when he was in Vietnam during the fall of Saigon.. i think its in 'The Great Shark Hunt'
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:11 / 14.08.02
But what does it say? Do you have a link?

Grant - IMO it was WWII which finally blew the lid of Enlightenment ideas, but perhaps this is because of Adorno and Horkheimer (the concentration camp is the logical outcome of Enlightenment thinking, etc) - why WWI do you think? Personally I think they have very different 'feels' as wars, and WWI is much less clinical than WWII (probably because it was in some senses a prototype war - the war which was to end all wars, which came before the war to end all wars... and here we are waiting for the next one)
 
 
T*M*U*M*A
05:44 / 15.08.02
it was just something i remembered..

the title of the peice is Fear and Loathing in Saigon: Interdicted Dispatch from the Global Affairs Desk.. i've found references to it on the internet but not the article itself..

also i should correct myself here.. its not in The Great Shark Hunt, its in Songs Of The Doomed..

apparently this trip of his features heavliy in Fear And Loathing In America: The Gonzo Letters Vol. II (1968-1976) but i'm still working my way through the first one so i cant personally confirm that.
 
 
sleazenation
09:41 / 15.08.02
Just wondering if Joe Sacco's Safe area gorazde counds as war writing - since it is written more in the shadow of war during the ceasefire rather than the thick of it and it is written by a reporter rather than someone whose live has been engulfed by the effects of war
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:40 / 15.08.02
"The Short-Timers" was by Gustav Hasford. And very good.

I'd also recommend Michael Herr's "Dispatches"... not fiction, but the best Vietnam book I've ever read... combines the horror and atrocity with the admission that, yes, war correspondents get off on the adrenaline. (Ditto for Anthony Loyd's "My War Gone By I Miss It So", which was largely about Bosnia, and Joao Silva & Greg Marinovich's "The Bang-Bang Club", about South Africa and the death of Kevin Carter.)

Tim O'Brien... yes. "If I Die In a Combat Zone" is a fucking marvellous book, as his his thriller "In the Lake of the Woods", which has the spectre of Vietnam hanging over it at all times.

Robert Stone's novels, likewise, are all very "in the shadow of the Nam"... with the exception of his last one, "Damascus Gate", which I have to re-read as it seems so bloody topical right now.

As far as science fiction goes, the best (imho) ever science fiction war novel is Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War"... written as a response to Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"... think "...Troopers" written by a guy who'd just come back from Vietnam and was horribly traumatised by the experience and you've got it.

Oh, and to go off on a weird one, there's also (sorry, it's Vietnam again) "The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh (I think I got the name right)... a semi-autobiographical novel by one of the VC, rather than the Yanks... it made me cry a lot.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
13:47 / 15.08.02
Siegfreid Sasson's "Memoirs of An Infantry Officer" is a fairly compelling account of the first world war. He uses a fictional alter-ego to describe the battle of the Somme.

Robert Graves' "Goodbye To All That" gives an excellant cross section of British society at the time of WWI. Everything from the behaviour of officers in the trenches to the pacifists back home.
 
 
grant
15:44 / 15.08.02
Kit-Kat: I opt for WWI as the end of the Enlightenment project because it proved that the irrational and unthinkable still happened in a world where irrationality and unthinkability were supposedly gone for good. The complicated series of treaties were in place to prevent the world from falling into war. There was a smug sense that science and honor were winning over animal urges to destroy, I think, in the zeitgeist.

Then gallant young men died in the thousands in trenches, hung up on razor wire, shot at with *machine guns*, strafed by *flying machines* or crushed under the tracks of *armored motor vehicles*. All the technology went horribly wrong, see.

Surrealism, in part, was a reaction against rationality because rationality led to the horrors (and chaos) of the Great War*. That's why fellow travelers like the Futurists were so into war as an aesthetic medium, because war became (to some of the survivors) the ultimate expression of noble human ideals. Pro Patria Mori, and all that.

World War II was definitely an industrial war, but I think by then there was a difference in mood. Nationalism and fascism might be related to older ideals of national honor and patriotism, but they're more like mutant children, really. Sort of a religion-of-state springing up to replace the dying what - national druidism of faith-in-honor? "Natural" trust in the organic rightness of nations? Compare WWII's iconic stars vs. swastikas with the more representative eagles, lions, and horses of WWI paraphernalia.

Both wars left behind horror, paranoia, and the idea of "the unthinkable" having been done. I just think that after WWI, a) there was less of a chance to blame any one particular nation for the madness, and b) it was the *war itself* that was mad, not the actions of one nation (gas chambers) or another (atomic bombings). The concentration camps were the main image of horror in the European war, but the prisoners were non-combatants. It was their own government doing this to them, not the war.

*Andre Breton was a medical student working in the clinics, dealing with insane and mutilated soldiers. Hence, you might consider the Surrealist Manifesto as war writing, in a way.

-------

It strikes me that that the best poets of the Vietnam war were folk singers, less so than pop stars. Not the Rolling Stones or the Doors, but Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, or Peter Paul & Mary. They certainly seemed to frame themselves as poets.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:49 / 15.08.02
grant: e e cummings is a World War One guy--drove an ambulance in France, ended up arrested and imprisoned for treason at one point. Wroite about it in his novel The Enormous Room (1922).

Cummings' best anti-war poems: "i sing of olaf glad and big" (about a conscientious objector) and "next to god of course america i" (which is a Petrarchan sonnet, though it doesn't look like one).

World War I, even more than WWII, really did shatter a lot of illusions about the glory of war, though: remember, up 'til that point the military was still considered a good career track for young aristocrats, and war was still thought to be a civilized actvity--not without its risks, but a reasonable way to settle disputes, if everyone understood the rules.

Then the rules changed.

And out of it, also changed by it, came
Wilfred Owen, Robert Graves, Siegfried Sassoon, Rupert Brooke, Ernest Hemingway, Erich Maria Remarque...

Every year, on the weekend closest to Remembrance Day, public radios's Sound and Spirit airs its To End All Wars episode, focusing on the art, literature, and music to emerge out of World War I, and the way the war really ushered in the 20th Century and all its neuroses. There's no transcript online, but seek out the program when it airs in November.
 
 
Karasu
10:07 / 16.08.02
A lot of the books I would regard as war-classics have already been mentioned (Despatches, Catch 22, The Sorrow of War etc), but there's a few more I'll pop in.

"Chickenhawk" by Robert Mason.
An amazing account of this guys time as a helicopter pilot in the 1st Air Cav in Vietnam.

"Nam" by Mark Baker
This is my particular favourite of the books on the Vietnam war. It's a series of short stories and annecdotes from a wide range of personnel from the war. From the the grunt in the field to the nurse in the hospital it covers the majority of the American perspective of the war.

"The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer.
This recounts his time in the Wermacht fighting on the Russian front. I find this one particulary interesting as Guys' father is French and his Mother is German so as well as the coping with the war and so on he's also trying to sort out is nationality.

I'm loathe to mention any of the spate of SAS books that cropped up in the '90s (Do they have a biography wing or something?), but one stood out head and shoulders above the rest - "The Killing Zone" by Harry McCallion. This man went from a poor, deprived childhood into the paras, then over to South Africa to the Recces, back to the UK to the SAS, then onto the RUC and finally is a practising barrister of law based in London. I feel it's amazing what this man has made of himself.

It's an old comment that 'history is written by the victors' so I've been trying to find accounts of this centuries wars that were written by the losing/other side.
Both "The Forgotten Soldier" and "The Sorrows of War" I've mentioned, but pretty much the only other one I've found is "Tales of Japanese Soldiers "by John Nunneley and Kazuo Tamayama. It's the same style as "Nam" and consisits of 62 tales of the Japanese perspective of their area of WWII.

Getting back to part of Kit-Kats' question:

"I'm interested in how writers have responded to other wars, and how those responses might differ from the WW1 ones"

That was actually what I wrote my SYS English dissertation on back in school years ago. I compared and contrasted three books: "Memoirs of An Officer" by Seigfried Sassoon, "Alamein to Zem Zem" by Keith Douglas and "If I Die In a Combat Zone" by Tim O'Brien.
It's been a few years since I wrote it so I can't quite remember what points I brought up. (Sorry!) I think the main thing I put forward was the actual styles of the various authors. From Sassoon being the aristocratic gentleman, Douglas coming from a well off family and high education and then O'Brien being Joe Public. I know that's not actually a big point, but I think that's one of the main points in how war literature has changed over the years. Before it was only really the province of the officers etc, that were able to write on their war time, but now more and more of the books out there are being written by the grunts, the squaddies, those that actually put up with the daily slog.
As far as I know there's only two books out there that differ from that point: "The Memoirs of Rifleman Harris" about this guys account of the Penisular war against Napoleon and another from the same era written by a French Sergeant. (I can't remember the name though!)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:21 / 16.08.02
Actually one of the interesting things Fussell says in The Great War and Modern Memory is that WWI is unusual precisely because literary activity was not confined to a relatively idle officer class (not forgetting here that lower officers - lieutenants mainly IIRC - suffered the highest casualty rates of the forces, proportionally of course, in the trenches). Fussell points to evidence that reading was a major activity for all troops in the trenches - such as language used in letters home, and books taken out to the front (The Oxford English Poetry, Housman &c); and the major wrtiers of the first war were pretty much all junior officers, with a couple of privates thrown in (I can't remember what rank Edmund Blunden was, or Isaac Rosenberg, Edward Thomas or T E Hulme for that matter, but I know that Sassoon, Graves and Owen were all lieutenants at first - though of course the first two became captains over the course of the war). The idea of the leisured officer versus the private is rather blurred in this particular context, I think.

Actually one interesting example is Frederic Manning, who wrote a number of highly-regarded war novels and who was a private... I think Her Privates We might be his...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:57 / 17.08.02
Karasu- Chickenhawk is indeed a wonderful book.
And, of course, Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five"- marketed as sf, but actually about the bombing of Dresden.
 
 
Grey Area
15:57 / 17.08.02
Erich Maria Remarque's "All Quiet on the Western Front" is a must for WW1-type literature. It details the disillusionment of the common German soldier in the trenches of France, and the stark contrast between what the soldiers experienced and what the people back home thought what was happening.

Lothar-Gunther Buchheim has two very good biographical novels out about his experiences in WW2 (he was a war correspondent for the Germans). "Das Boot" is a factual account of two U-Boot patrols he was assigned to. There's very litte war-type action...it's more about the men aboard and how the war has shaped their characters. "Die Festung" is the follow up, and is about the end of the war and the desperate and sometimes insane actions carried out by the German soldiers and officers faced by the realisation that they are going to lose. "Das Boot" is widely available in English, I'm not sure about "Die Festung".
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:19 / 18.11.02
This Guardian article about the provision of state-sponsored books for soldiers is interesting... different slant on the 'war literature' question...
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
10:35 / 18.11.02
I won't be able to comment very well here, because most of this I read a long time ago and I retain only a few impressions of most books I read, but Kenzaburo Oe's Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids was very visually oriented and beautiful to me, even if it is a more peripheral account of WWII.

A very hoity-toity socialite story related to WWII is Timothy Findley's Famous Last Words. He's a stellar writer, and takes several liberties with real people - here's a bit of overflowing text from Amazon as a start: "Set in World War II, the novel follows the exploits of writer Hugh Selwyn Mauberly, a character Findley has drawn from the poems of one of this novel's secondary characters, Ezra Pound. The novel, which examines the curious attraction of Germany to all symbols English spends much more time on the comings and goings of some other important folk, like German Foriegn Minister Von Ribbentrop, or the real murdered British diplomat Sir Harry Oakes. Looming large throughout the novel, is the character of the Duchess of Windsor, known forever as Mrs. Simpson. "Famous Last Words" tells of Mauberly's romantic obsession with Mrs. Simpson. It also proposes the shocking theory that the Nazi's under Hitler had a unique and unhealthy obsession of its own involving Mrs Simpson and her brurned out hulk of a former king, Edward VIII."

(That diplomat was real murdered, I tell you.)
 
 
ephemerat
12:13 / 18.11.02
A couple of serious omissions:

The Naked and the Dead by Norman Mailer.

Perhaps the most important novel to bloodily emerge from WWII - (almost) certainly my favourite. Based on Mailer's own experiences it charts a US assault on a Japanese-held, rainy, malaria-ridden Pacific island via the experiences of an often crude, cruel, misanthropic and brutally realistic cast of characters. There are two main strands: one charts the painful progress of an impossible and futile mission carried out by ordinary soldiers; the other records an ongoing debate between the young, idealistic, Marxist Lieutenant Hearn and his cynical, savage, libertarian superior - Colonel Cummings. The doomed mission is recorded in exacting detail via the increasingly bleak thoughts, obsessions, comments and observations of the men who endure it, while the debate sees Hearn being verbally and ideologically torn apart by the older man. As a double assault on the reader it is fucking harsh, uncompromising and unremitting but also utterly beautiful. You want to read this book - but make sure you've got someone or something reassurring to cuddle up with afterwards - I guarantee some sleepless nights if you've got even a single cc of warm blood in your body.

Um, perhaps a bit more hopeful:

The Roads to Freedom trilogy by Jean-Paul Sartre (The Age of Reason, The Reprieve and Iron in the Soul).

Most people don't automatically think of Sartre as a soldier but he fought for France in WWII, was captured by the Germans, released due to poor health in '41 (he wrote his first fiction, a play, for other POWs to perform while imprisoned) and on return immediately joined the Resistance for which he continued to fight until the end of the war. His experiences informed a lot of his philosophy and provided the basis for his and Simone de Beauvoir's lifelong campaign against Fascism (and fascism).

The Age of Reason begins in Paris in 1938 - to quote from the blurb: 'city of night clubs and galleries, community of students, communists and homosexuals, world of intellect and degradation' (c'mon, don't you just love it already?). It's a city gripped by fear of the increasingly certain threat of war and the trilogy charts the hope and terror, the dissipation and lethargy and desperate longing, and the eventual necessary resolution of its cast (most especially the dissolute, drunken wastrel Mathieu - its largely autobiographical main character), plus the horror of those who stood by or ran, or those who collaborated. As you'd expect the style of narration is (again) fairly bleak and uncompromising, but it doesn't judge out of hand, the characters are beautifully drawn and it's also perceptive, profound, moving and, well, important - plus it's sooooo Barbelith - and it's fucking Sartre, and it'll look good on your bookshelf, and I guarantee that it will impress any potential (or current) sexual partners.

You know you want it.
 
 
gergsnickle
14:17 / 18.11.02
Well, if we're listing war fiction we've read and recommend, when I think of WWI, I always think of the beginning of L.F. Celine's Journey To The End of the Night where he sorta inadvertantly joins the French army only to discover the horror of the war. I have not read any other WWI fiction (like Johnny Got His Gun), but this paints a terrible picture in itself (although it is only part of the book).
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:30 / 18.11.02
aghghghgh - war poetry, ruined forever, as Kit-Kat says, by exposure to it at school. "What passing bells"etc...


Don't know if these are relevant, but:

R.K.Naryan's 30s-50s work is utterly bound up with India's process of independance, especially novels set in his fictional town - Malgudi.

You've also got the 1905 movement - set up to protest the first partioning of the Bengal and counter the Curzon's tactic of fostering inter-faith strife (novel huh?). Very influential on, and influenced by , the fertile Bengali literary scene - so lots of work that intersects with activists campaigning (ultimately successfully for reunification)... a fascinating period, check out:

Rabindranath Tagore
Dwijendralal Roy
Manmohon Roy
Akshay Choudhury
Khirod Prasad Vidyabinode

Much of whose work from this time uses historical/contemporary scenes to foster unity/Bengali patriotism in the face of increasingly devious attempts to split Bengalis along religious lines...
 
 
ephemerat
05:52 / 19.11.02
Grant made some excellent comments about the different perspectives involved in writing since the Great War and it's got me thinking... As you're obviously aware, much of the work produced in reference to WWI is riddled with shock and disillusionment, it's the death of idealistic faith in nations and concepts of national gallantry, much of it maintains this tone of: 'Look, can't you see? They don't care about us! Politicians are nothing more than old men who carelessly toss away the lives of young men! There is no honour in war! We've been lied to! Don't you see? We've been lied to!'.

In contrast, writing about WWII takes this as given, the WWI literature has been disseminated and understood and most have no wish to repeat the mistakes of history. Grant observed that WWII is characterised as an 'industrialised' war and the literature it inspired reflects this - the over-riding atmosphere is one of monolithic processes in action, the sense that one is caught as a cog in some vast machinery of death (see Catch-22, or The Naked and the Dead).

Its main themes and obsessions seem centred on issues of personal freedom, both Hemingway and Sartre pass each other on this while travelling in different directions: Hemingway (in A Farewell to Arms for example) began by signing up for the war with a sense of manly responsibility, of the need to be tested by conflict and ends by deciding: 'Fuck this! This is insane. My life and my love are more important to me than any war, I'm fucking off.' His books seem to be the work of a tourist caught up in the madness - responsibility to self always wins.

Sartre on the other hand begins as a cynic, as someone for whom war is abhorrent and governments are self-interested liars, and his books mark the painful process of mental adjustment that is required for him to finally accept a sense of collective responsibility and duty as circumstance forces him into a situation where the only moral and ethical response is to fight. Sartre can not evade his responsibility; everything for him is on the line: his country, his friends, his family and, potentially, the future of the human race.

Where WWII focused on issues of personal freedom and responsibility, the Vietnam War seems to have inspired work that looks further inward. Most of the literature seems concerned with interests that are psychological in nature: the madness of war finally comes home to roost inside the heads of those who are caught up in it, whether by accident or design. War seems to have become internalised, both in the experience of it, and in the recognition of its root causes.

Hm, interesting... Will think more on this (sorry for ranting - this post might be a little overly long).
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:53 / 19.11.02
Loved Olivia Manning's Balkan and Levant Trilogies for their depiction of life on the outskirts of war, the refugees, the left-behind, the cheerleaders, the casualties limping to the nearest layby, and those who suffer little and make their fortunes out of the pain and desperation of others.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:52 / 19.11.02
oh, and check out Matthew Colin's "This is Serbia Calling" - which is an outsider's perspective, but has some fascinating and lengthy interviews with members of B92 and other Bosnian serbs...
 
 
zarathustra_k
14:45 / 23.11.02
Here are a few war themed books that I think are quite good. THE THINGS THEY CARRIED by Tim O'Brien on Vietnam soldiers and NOVEL WITHOUT A NAME by Duong Thu Huong, which looks at the complexities of the Vietnam War through the eyes of the Vietnamese. As for WWII, THIS WAY TO THE GAS LADIES AND GENTLMEN by Tadeusz Borowski is a nihilistic and realist portal of the concentration camp he was in. Primo Levi's SURVIVAL IN AUSCHWITZ is also quite good, not as biting as Borowski's work though. Czeslaw Milosz's Nobel Prize winning THE CAPITIVE MIND is phenomenal, especially the amazing first chapter "The Pill of Murti-Bing." The book is on WWII and the beginning of the Cold War. In THE CAPTIVE MIND there is a chapter on Borowski, although his name is never mentioned, the book also includes other Polish literary figures. Defiantly worth tracking down, just for that fist chapter alone. An academic book that is excellent is John Dower’s WAR WITHOUT MERCY, this book looks at the racial prejudice of the Americans and the Japanese before and through the second world war and how it affected they way people fought. This list is very western in focus, but this is what I have been most exposed to. If anyone has some good stuff on wars without the west playing a direct role please list some of them, thanks and enjoy!
 
  
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